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xsv
He's obviously better than Foles.

Reluctantly, I endorse Vick. In this offense, I don't think Vick has time to think, and that's probably a good thing, and will lead to less turnovers. I like Foles, but I really don't think he'll every be any better than a very good backup.

Give Vick the ball, and maybe we can get to .500.
Dreagon
Not a Vick fan here either.... but I have to agree. He looks like you guy's starter, for this season at least.
nephillymike
Vick is the starter. Name him tomorrow and then move forward.

X, if they train Vick to get rid of the ball fast and make quick decisions, he will be much better. Almost all of his mistakes happen after four seconds. He's getting it out in under four seconds, most time under three.

Give the ball to Vick, and if he plays well in Chips offense, the hell with .500. We're talking 10-6 and playoff berth.

I'm not joking.

Did you see how many times he could have run around the end for ten yards on that option.

When DC's look at this tape, they will have nightmares.

I'm excited.

The D played well also.
samaroo
What about the future of this team? Vick is not our franchise QB going forward. Are we that desperate that a few wins this year means we don't have a solid direction going forward? Asm i alone in wanting to find our future signal caller?

I'm totally ok with sacrificing wins this year to see if Foles or Barkley is the guy, just so we know. Am i the only one?
iggleslover49
Amazing how quickly opinions changed. Guys was just talking bout Vick not being a QB and not being coachable. Now the light cuts on? Yes Samaroo Drock Eyrie I'm back to say what I been saying ALL offseason. Vick is better than Foles. Foles is a backup and Barkley is the future.
iggleslover49
QUOTE (samaroo @ Aug 15 2013, 09:35 PM) *
What about the future of this team? Vick is not our franchise QB going forward. Are we that desperate that a few wins this year means we don't have a solid direction going forward? Asm i alone in wanting to find our future signal caller?

I'm totally ok with sacrificing wins this year to see if Foles or Barkley is the guy, just so we know. Am i the only one?

I'll take wins because we can still be contenders with this roster. Hell with a sacrificed season. If we can win Super Bowl this season lets do it. The competition is open, Foles ain't stepping up enough. I like what I see from Barkley more, even though backups are screwing him. I'm glad Kelly is making these guys earn this. No handouts cause your young. EARN IT! If you can't take it, you ain't a franchise guy.
JeeQ
Obvious to everyone who's capable of an unbiased opinion...

Vick was, has been, and will be the starter

Vick is a better QB than Nick Foles because Vick is simply a better QB than Nick Foles. It's not a sleight on Foles, it's just reality.

I present to you the QBs drafted under Andy Reid...

Nick Foles (?), Mike Kafka (failure), Kevin Kolb (failure), Andy Hall (failure), AJ Feely (failure), and finally Winghead's most hated even though he's the best Eagles QB in recent history and the only one with any success, Donovan McFraud, McPuke, McChoke, whatever you unappreciative assclowns are calling him this week. (success in my mind, failure in the mind of Wingheads)

So given this amazing QB drafting history of Andy Reid what most you should be doing is thanking the heavens we signed Michael Vick. Now at least we have a glimmer of hope every year (as small as it may be) rather than an automatic high draft pick year.

But keep hoping Foles takes over as starter. He did so amazing last year. With his one win every seven games average we're a lock for Jadeveon Clowney! laugh.gif
MistahNickells
QUOTE (samaroo @ Aug 15 2013, 09:35 PM) *
What about the future of this team? Vick is not our franchise QB going forward. Are we that desperate that a few wins this year means we don't have a solid direction going forward? Asm i alone in wanting to find our future signal caller?

I'm totally ok with sacrificing wins this year to see if Foles or Barkley is the guy, just so we know. Am i the only one?

No Samo tell the truth, you want to sacrifice the eagle season because of your personal feelings for vick. Why would you not want the new head coach to win as many games as possible is baffling to me?
MistahNickells
QUOTE (JeeQ @ Aug 15 2013, 10:00 PM) *
Obvious to everyone who's capable of an unbiased opinion...

Vick was, has been, and will be the starter

Vick is a better QB than Nick Foles because Vick is simply a better QB than Nick Foles. It's not a sleight on Foles, it's just reality.

I present to you the QBs drafted under Andy Reid...

Nick Foles (?), Mike Kafka (failure), Kevin Kolb (failure), Andy Hall (failure), AJ Feely (failure), and finally Winghead's most hated even though he's the best Eagles QB in recent history and the only one with any success, Donovan McFraud, McPuke, McChoke, whatever you unappreciative assclowns are calling him this week. (success in my mind, failure in the mind of Wingheads)

So given this amazing QB drafting history of Andy Reid what most you should be doing is thanking the heavens we signed Michael Vick. Now at least we have a glimmer of hope every year (as small as it may be) rather than an automatic high draft pick year.

But keep hoping Foles takes over as starter. He did so amazing last year. With his one win every seven games average we're a lock for Jadeveon Clowney! laugh.gif

stop the violence you killin'em
samaroo
QUOTE (JeeQ @ Aug 15 2013, 10:00 PM) *
So given this amazing QB drafting history of Andy Reid what most you should be doing is thanking the heavens we signed Michael Vick. Now at least we have a glimmer of hope every year (as small as it may be) rather than an automatic high draft pick year.


My argument is not that Vick is better or worse, my argument is that Vick is 34 years old. Our defense is not good, and our potentially awesome offense is unproven. This is not our SB run year. And not next year either. Or probably the next after that.

When we do have a SB contending roster (IF?!?), Vick will not be playing pro ball anymore, and we will need a QB for our team to lead us there. Do you think Vick is that guy? I don't.

I'd rather give up meaningless wins now to solidify/figure out the future of this team. If we win a SB 3 or 4 years from now, will our record this year matter to anybody? It won't to me, or to you either. If that is our goal, why are we still wanting Vick? If playoff wins aren't enough anymore, why do we still care what our record is THIS YEAR?

JeeQ
QUOTE (samaroo @ Aug 15 2013, 07:20 PM) *
My argument is not that Vick is better or worse, my argument is that Vick is 34 years old. Our defense is not good, and our potentially awesome offense is unproven. This is not our SB run year. And not next year either. Or probably the next after that.

When we do have a SB contending roster (IF?!?), Vick will not be playing pro ball anymore, and we will need a QB for our team to lead us there. Do you think Vick is that guy? I don't.

I'd rather give up meaningless wins now to solidify/figure out the future of this team. If we win a SB 3 or 4 years from now, will our record this year matter to anybody? It won't to me, or to you either. If that is our goal, why are we still wanting Vick? If playoff wins aren't enough anymore, why do we still care what our record is THIS YEAR?


If you're not playing to win the Super Bowl every year don't even step on the field.

The Redskins went from bottom dwellers to knocking on the door of the Super Bowl. Russell Wilson went from an unknown to an All-Pro and made the Seahawks a Super Bowl contender. Colin Kaepernick wasn't even supposed to take the field and was 5 yards from a Super Bowl Championship.

Anything can happen in the NFL. If you make the playoffs you have the same chance everybody else has.
iggleslover49
QUOTE (samaroo @ Aug 15 2013, 10:20 PM) *
My argument is not that Vick is better or worse, my argument is that Vick is 34 years old. Our defense is not good, and our potentially awesome offense is unproven. This is not our SB run year. And not next year either. Or probably the next after that.

When we do have a SB contending roster (IF?!?), Vick will not be playing pro ball anymore, and we will need a QB for our team to lead us there. Do you think Vick is that guy? I don't.

I'd rather give up meaningless wins now to solidify/figure out the future of this team. If we win a SB 3 or 4 years from now, will our record this year matter to anybody? It won't to me, or to you either. If that is our goal, why are we still wanting Vick? If playoff wins aren't enough anymore, why do we still care what our record is THIS YEAR?

But what if we win the Super Bowl THIS year? Right now we are the laughing stock of the NFL. We had a 4-12 season last season and have ZERO SBs wins; and you wanted to cut Vick, give Foles the job and sacrifice 3-4 more years of losing to see what he's got? Shame on you and the rest of the Vick haters that think like you... dry.gif
MistahNickells
QUOTE (iggleslover49 @ Aug 15 2013, 10:43 PM) *
But what if we win the Super Bowl THIS year? Right now we are the laughing stock of the NFL. We had a 4-12 season last season and have ZERO SBs wins; and you wanted to cut Vick, give Foles the job and sacrifice 3-4 more years of losing to see what he's got? Shame on you and the rest of the Vick haters that think like you... dry.gif

Nuff Said
iggleslover49
Foles passer rating was record breaking last preseason. Numbers are overrated, but just outta curiousity. What is it now? What is Foles passer rating compared to Vick after this game? Foles 65.7; Vick 113.1.
nephillymike
This Vick is too old stuff doesn't float with me.

If you want to say he is within four years of retirement, fine. Thats longer than the average NFL career btw.

I don' know for sure but I imagine there must have been some SB winning QB's who won the SB within four years of retirement? Maybe a few more who won their first within four years of retirement.

Play the best option, win every game you can and see how close we can get.

Vick's earned the start.

Hopefully he'll continue to play with the sense of urgency and the system continues to be a good fit when they roll out the entire playbook in three weeks.
iggleslover49
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Aug 15 2013, 11:48 PM) *
This Vick is too old stuff doesn't float with me.

If you want to say he is within four years of retirement, fine. Thats longer than the average NFL career btw.

I don' know for sure but I imagine there must have been some SB winning QB's who won the SB within four years of retirement? Maybe a few more who won their first within four years of retirement.

Play the best option, win every game you can and see how close we can get.

Vick's earned the start.

Hopefully he'll continue to play with the sense of urgency and the system continues to be a good fit when they roll out the entire playbook in three weeks.

Man whatever. You had a problem with Vick's age just a few months ago just like everyone else mike. You were the main one yelling bout Foles' numbers. I swear guys are flipping more than two faces' fifty cent piece now
iggleslover49
I'm sorry guys but alot you guys gave me so much shit about Vick vs. Foles. I don't really want to hear the Vick praise now. I remember arguing with what seemed like the whole forum about this. Even had one guy question whether I was a fan(Mcnabbulous) And now guys are wearing flip flops? Hilarious... Just apologize and tell me I was right and ya'll were wrong and I'll get over it...
koolaidluke
First of all, I thought both guys were very impressive.

Secondly, I feel like IF Chip is being true to his word, and this is a fair competition where the man who plays better gets the job, then Vick is winning so far in the pre season after tonight. Foles was efficient, but Vick ran the offense with true command.

That being said, do you believe Vick can maintain this level of play once the games start counting? I do not. But I guess we just have to wait and see.

What has really impressed me is the defense. This D could very well hold opposing teams to 21 points a game this year, even playing at a fast pace. The defense is doing a great job of keeping everything in front of them and making teams push the ball all the way up the field. Special Teams was excellent too.
koolaidluke
QUOTE (iggleslover49 @ Aug 16 2013, 12:13 AM) *
I'm sorry guys but alot you guys gave me so much shit about Vick vs. Foles. I don't really want to hear the Vick praise now. I remember arguing with what seemed like the whole forum about this. Even had one guy question whether I was a fan(Mcnabbulous) And now guys are wearing flip flops? Hilarious... Just apologize and tell me I was right and ya'll were wrong and I'll get over it...



I suspect you like men
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (iggleslover49 @ Aug 15 2013, 11:13 PM) *
I'm sorry guys but alot you guys gave me so much shit about Vick vs. Foles. I don't really want to hear the Vick praise now. I remember arguing with what seemed like the whole forum about this. Even had one guy question whether I was a fan(Mcnabbulous) And now guys are wearing flip flops? Hilarious... Just apologize and tell me I was right and ya'll were wrong and I'll get over it...


I think you're a Vick fan, not an Eagles fan. If Vick were on another team, you'd be on one of their forums.
And for what it's worth, I've said all along I want Vick to start over Foles, as it's the only way we have a chance to win this year. Ultimately the league will catch up to him, as they always do, but he has a chance to have a 2010-like season in Kelly's new offense.
I'm not high on Foles at all, though it does seem that he has played well this offseason. Vick seemingly has won the job, which is a good thing. He's not falling into it.
iggleslover49
QUOTE (koolaidluke @ Aug 16 2013, 01:20 AM) *
I suspect you like men

With a name like koolaidluke, I suspect you do too.
iggleslover49
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Aug 16 2013, 05:56 AM) *
I think you're a Vick fan, not an Eagles fan. If Vick were on another team, you'd be on one of their forums.
And for what it's worth, I've said all along I want Vick to start over Foles, as it's the only way we have a chance to win this year. Ultimately the league will catch up to him, as they always do, but he has a chance to have a 2010-like season in Kelly's new offense.
I'm not high on Foles at all, though it does seem that he has played well this offseason. Vick seemingly has won the job, which is a good thing. He's not falling into it.

I am a Vick fan. I'm an RG3 fan too. And I like Colin Keapernick too. And Aaron Rodgers. (Come to think of it, of those guys Vick is my least favorite) McCoy is my favorite player though. If he leaves I might have to leave. I'm a fan of all these guys, but your the one man crushing enough to name your forum name after players, not me.rolleyes.gif

Newsflash: Mcnabb BEEN gone....
xsv
QUOTE (iggleslover49 @ Aug 16 2013, 12:13 AM) *
I'm sorry guys but alot you guys gave me so much shit about Vick vs. Foles. I don't really want to hear the Vick praise now. I remember arguing with what seemed like the whole forum about this. Even had one guy question whether I was a fan(Mcnabbulous) And now guys are wearing flip flops? Hilarious... Just apologize and tell me I was right and ya'll were wrong and I'll get over it...


The difference is, in the last couple of years, it was Vick playing like dogshit and turning the ball over constantly.

However, this new offense isn't giving him time to think. He has one defender to read, and everything else is predetermined. He's getting rid of the ball quickly, and not trying to 'ad lib'. The guy is too old, and has lost too much to be able to run around back there and ellude everyone and run down the field for a first down. What he can do is throw a nice tight spiral in the right place to the guy he's told to throw it to. He also doens't seem to have an issue catching a shotgun snap.

The bottom line for me is that both guys were pretty impressive, but Foles put the ball on the carpet 3 times in two games, and that's the exactly the kind of shit I didn't like about Vick.
iggleslover49
QUOTE (xsv @ Aug 16 2013, 07:57 AM) *
The difference is, in the last couple of years, it was Vick playing like dogshit and turning the ball over constantly.

However, this new offense isn't giving him time to think. He has one defender to read, and everything else is predetermined. He's getting rid of the ball quickly, and not trying to 'ad lib'. The guy is too old, and has lost too much to be able to run around back there and ellude everyone and run down the field for a first down. What he can do is throw a nice tight spiral in the right place to the guy he's told to throw it to. He also doens't seem to have an issue catching a shotgun snap.

The bottom line for me is that both guys were pretty impressive, but Foles put the ball on the carpet 3 times in two games, and that's the exactly the kind of shit I didn't like about Vick.

I agree partially. Unlike many here, I believe he can read defenses. I don't think Foles is any better at it honestly. The problem with Vick IS turnovers, I agree with that, but lets be honest Foles was clumsy with the ball last season too.(as was the whole offense in general)Everything Foles can do Vick can do better and its appearant to everyone right now, but it was to me last season too. Nobody wants to hear the fact that the playcalling was different, but it was. And this isn't a one read and throw offense. Chip had Vick standing in the pocket going through progressions for most of the preseason.
make_it_rain
QUOTE (xsv @ Aug 16 2013, 07:57 AM) *
The difference is, in the last couple of years, it was Vick playing like dogshit and turning the ball over constantly.

However, this new offense isn't giving him time to think. He has one defender to read, and everything else is predetermined. He's getting rid of the ball quickly, and not trying to 'ad lib'.


Also, at least in these two preseason games (take them for what they are) Vick has had the luxury of pretty good protection up front. Instead of literally taking the snap and having to run for his life (or scrambling to force some frantic, ill advised throw) he's (gasp!) been getting a decent pocket, which lets him stay calm and get the ball to his receivers quickly.

Lane Johnson has been pretty impressive so far. If they can get Peter's back to his old form, this line could be really solid.
samaroo
First off, I don't "hate" Vick. He has, historically, been a bad-to-mediocre quarterback who turns over the ball. I do hate that.

But some of you think we can make a SB run this year, and I don't see it. I hope I'm wrong, I'd love to celebrate in February, but I really, really don't see it. We have a lot of personnel holes to fill, and a lot of unprovens on this team, including on the sidelines.

A decent performance in preseason, at any position, is not as telling to me as it seems to be for some of the people on here. I think we are 3-4 years away from a serious run, given that we make the right moves. I realize that if we make the playoffs, anything can happen. I also realize that that is a long shot. Even making the playoffs is a long shot. Our conference seems to be as weak as it's ever been, but I don't feel like we're in a position to fully capitalize on that.

That is why I would rather not start Vick. If I'm wrong, and we go to the big game, alright. But Vick is 34, some of you don't think that matters. Some of you seem to forget that he averages about 6 games a year. Some of you forget that he looks good in the offseason almost every year. But all that aside, I do think he's the best QB on the roster right now, I just don't think he will be in 2015.

Also, I really want Clowney, so I think we should lose every game on purpose! tongue.gif
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (iggleslover49 @ Aug 16 2013, 06:24 AM) *
If he leaves I might have to leave.

Yeah - so I was correct. You're not an Eagles fan.

QUOTE
I'm a fan of all these guys, but your the one man crushing enough to name your forum name after players, not me.rolleyes.gif

Newsflash: Mcnabb BEEN gone....

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Criticize my family, but I'll be damned if you say anything negative about Donnie 5.

Newsflash: I'm as critical of McNabb's career as anyone on this board. And I haven't been bashful about it. See...unlike you, I am capable of objectively critiquing a player I like (or once liked) and having my opinions changed based on new information.

In your case, Vick has been dog shit for the past 2 seasons, much like the majority of his career. While I think he is capable of doing some incredible things in Kelly's offense, and have been pushing for him to be the starter all along, the criticism upon him his well deserved. If you had any sense of objectivity, you'd be able to see that.

I'm as enamored with Vick's skills as much as anyone. But his career has largely been a waste. And he has no one to blame but himself.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (samaroo @ Aug 16 2013, 10:21 AM) *
First off, I don't "hate" Vick. He has, historically, been a bad-to-mediocre quarterback who turns over the ball. I do hate that.

But some of you think we can make a SB run this year, and I don't see it. I hope I'm wrong, I'd love to celebrate in February, but I really, really don't see it. We have a lot of personnel holes to fill, and a lot of unprovens on this team, including on the sidelines.

Our roster has lots of talent, but is paper thin. The only way we make a run is if we stay healthy (we're not off to a good start) and Vick plays lights out. That's literally the only way. If we any of that doesn't happen, it's worth letting the young guys show what they've got.

QUOTE
A decent performance in preseason, at any position, is not as telling to me as it seems to be for some of the people on here. I think we are 3-4 years away from a serious run, given that we make the right moves. I realize that if we make the playoffs, anything can happen. I also realize that that is a long shot. Even making the playoffs is a long shot. Our conference seems to be as weak as it's ever been, but I don't feel like we're in a position to fully capitalize on that.

No team is 3-4 years away in the NFL. It's one of the beautiful things about the league.

QUOTE
That is why I would rather not start Vick. If I'm wrong, and we go to the big game, alright. But Vick is 34, some of you don't think that matters. Some of you seem to forget that he averages about 6 games a year. Some of you forget that he looks good in the offseason almost every year. But all that aside, I do think he's the best QB on the roster right now, I just don't think he will be in 2015.

If he only averages 6 games a year, what are you worried about?

Eyrie
QUOTE (iggleslover49 @ Aug 16 2013, 02:40 AM) *
Amazing how quickly opinions changed. Guys was just talking bout Vick not being a QB and not being coachable. Now the light cuts on? Yes Samaroo Drock Eyrie I'm back to say what I been saying ALL offseason. Vick is better than Foles. Foles is a backup and Barkley is the future.

You squealed? biggrin.gif

All offseason you were praising Vick as being the best QB in Eagles history and dismissing Foles as dog shit, whilst others (and I note the good company I'm keeping here) offered considered opinions on the comparative strengths and weaknesses of the two QBs for Kelly's system. Based on that I predicted that Foles would get the job. And do you know something? He's playing well enough to have earned it.

However it seems that Vick is currently playing better and as long as he can sustain that level of performance then I have no objection to him starting. As soon as he slips, we have a very capable Foles ready to improve matters. And I look forward to you praising him when that happens tongue.gif
Dreagon
QUOTE (iggleslover49 @ Aug 15 2013, 11:13 PM) *
I'm sorry guys but alot you guys gave me so much shit about Vick vs. Foles. I don't really want to hear the Vick praise now. I remember arguing with what seemed like the whole forum about this. Even had one guy question whether I was a fan(Mcnabbulous) And now guys are wearing flip flops? Hilarious... Just apologize and tell me I was right and ya'll were wrong and I'll get over it...


I don't think we're really indulging in "Vick praise" as much as simply acknowledging that he is winning the job. And I get the feeling the acknowledgement is reluctant on many of our parts so it's probably more a matter of us just being honest as opposed to wearing flip flops.
xsv
I'll also say this..

If Vick is cut tomorrow, I'll be perfectly happy knowing Foles will be the QB. I

think Vick is playing a little better right now, especially by not turning the ball over, but it's only a matter of time. I think Vick has 2 years left, at most, as a player in this league. And if he regresses, maybe not even that. His skills have obviously eroded, and I suspect that will continue at an exponential pace.

Foles will never have the talent that Vick wasted. But I think he is talented, and I have a feeling he'll make much better use of what he does have.

Also, fuck Mike Vick.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (xsv @ Aug 16 2013, 03:44 PM) *
I'll also say this..

If Vick is cut tomorrow, I'll be perfectly happy knowing Foles will be the QB. I

think Vick is playing a little better right now, especially by not turning the ball over, but it's only a matter of time. I think Vick has 2 years left, at most, as a player in this league. And if he regresses, maybe not even that. His skills have obviously eroded, and I suspect that will continue at an exponential pace.

Foles will never have the talent that Vick wasted. But I think he is talented, and I have a feeling he'll make much better use of what he does have.

Also, fuck Mike Vick.


I understand your position but I am curious as to what makes you think his skills have eroded? He is still ridiculously fast, compared to Foles he is a rocket. His arm has never looked better. His skills are still incredible. Now the question is, as it always has been, can he use those skills for good instead of evil. Vick's issues have been trying to do too much, taking bad risks, injury prone of late and poor ball security. As Mikey has pointed out here and very accurately, his weakness occurs when he holds the ball for too long and this offense demands that not happen. He may fail in this offense but his skills won't be the reason. Pound for pound he is a better passer and runner than Foles, he is less durable so he needs to stop taking risks but skillwise he still looks like he has a long way to go before calling it a career.
xsv
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Aug 16 2013, 04:50 PM) *
I understand your position but I am curious as to what makes you think his skills have eroded? He is still ridiculously fast, compared to Foles he is a rocket. His arm has never looked better. His skills are still incredible. Now the question is, as it always has been, can he use those skills for good instead of evil. Vick's issues have been trying to do too much, taking bad risks, injury prone of late and poor ball security. As Mikey has pointed out here and very accurately, his weakness occurs when he holds the ball for too long and this offense demands that not happen. He may fail in this offense but his skills won't be the reason. Pound for pound he is a better passer and runner than Foles, he is less durable so he needs to stop taking risks but skillwise he still looks like he has a long way to go before calling it a career.


I wouldn't say he's ridiculously fast anymore. He used to be able to make everyone on the field look like they were standing still. He's still fast, don't get me wrong. Probably still one of the fasted QBs in the league. But he used to be one of the fastest players in the league, and I think that's a significant difference.

Also, I disagree about the arm. I don't think he's ever been this accurate, but I don't think he's got quite the same 'flick his wrist the the ball goes 70 yards in the air' ability he used to have.

It's obvious he's still playing at a high level. But I think it's also obvious he's not as elusive as he used to be, and it seems like every time he takes a shot, he has to hold his head until the bells stop ringing.

'Pound for pound' I think he's currently a better passer than Foles. Btu not by a whole lot. Foles has been impressive. And I think Foles will surpss in the next 2 years.
nephillymike
What we may have this year is a highly motivated highly skilled QB who is in the system that accentuates his strengths while hiding his weakness, under a first year no nonsense head coach. It could be the perfect storm.

Thinking back, McNabb was never a good fit for the WCO. Vick wasn't a good fit in that system either, especially the version that allowed for so many slow developing plays. Randall didn't have a structured offense here, much to our detriment.

If past is prologue, Vick's motivation will wane with a new deal, but let's ride the perfect storm while we can.


mcnabbulous
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Aug 16 2013, 06:29 PM) *
Vick wasn't a good fit in that system either, especially the version that allowed for so many slow developing plays.


That wasn't the WCO.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (xsv @ Aug 16 2013, 05:46 PM) *
I wouldn't say he's ridiculously fast anymore. He used to be able to make everyone on the field look like they were standing still. He's still fast, don't get me wrong. Probably still one of the fasted QBs in the league. But he used to be one of the fastest players in the league, and I think that's a significant difference.

Also, I disagree about the arm. I don't think he's ever been this accurate, but I don't think he's got quite the same 'flick his wrist the the ball goes 70 yards in the air' ability he used to have.

It's obvious he's still playing at a high level. But I think it's also obvious he's not as elusive as he used to be, and it seems like every time he takes a shot, he has to hold his head until the bells stop ringing.

'Pound for pound' I think he's currently a better passer than Foles. Btu not by a whole lot. Foles has been impressive. And I think Foles will surpss in the next 2 years.



I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one X. He beat McCoy in a foot race and it wasn't close according to those in attendance so his speed is not an issue....the league may have sped up a bit but he is still elusive...I concede it may not be what he once was but it is still pretty damn close. But the real bone of contention is his arm. The pass to Jackson in the first preseason game was47 yeards of which 46 were in the air. Now I don't know if you watched the game but that was effortless......his arm may be better now than it was....the guy has a cannon. The only real question on him is a point you have made before and that is between his ears........is that part going to sink him or will he see the light.
Eyrie
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Aug 16 2013, 02:04 AM) *
X, if they train Vick to get rid of the ball fast and make quick decisions, he will be much better. Almost all of his mistakes happen after four seconds. He's getting it out in under four seconds, most time under three.


QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Aug 16 2013, 09:50 PM) *
Vick's issues have been trying to do too much, taking bad risks, injury prone of late and poor ball security. As Mikey has pointed out here and very accurately, his weakness occurs when he holds the ball for too long and this offense demands that not happen.


So the two of you are saying that Kelly's high paced offense means that Vick only has a couple of reads to worry about, which takes him back to what he was doing for most of his career. I'm still concerned about his accuracy, timing and fumbling, but as long as he's performing at a high level and doesn't get the chance to repeat his mistakes I can live with him as the starter.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Aug 17 2013, 03:44 AM) *
So the two of you are saying that Kelly's high paced offense means that Vick only has a couple of reads to worry about, which takes him back to what he was doing for most of his career. I'm still concerned about his accuracy, timing and fumbling, but as long as he's performing at a high level and doesn't get the chance to repeat his mistakes I can live with him as the starter.



Contrary to his younger days, Vick's passing mechanics are much better, so I think he will be pretty accurate. Fumbling and injury on running is still a concern, especially since he can't slide. It's quite the contrast watching the ex baseball player Dixon's perfect pop up slide and still seeing our starting QB unable to master the slide. Amazing really. Still can't get over the sliding thing. there was never a 7th-8th grade CYO player on my team that didn't learn how to slide properly, but here's a guy with millions of future earnings at stake but can't master the simple task. Odd.

Hopefully he'll avoid the shot to the ribs and games missed do to injury that has plagued his inability to slide in the past.
Birdman420
QUOTE (xsv @ Aug 16 2013, 07:57 AM) *
The difference is, in the last couple of years, it was Vick playing like dogshit and turning the ball over constantly.

However, this new offense isn't giving him time to think. He has one defender to read, and everything else is predetermined. He's getting rid of the ball quickly, and not trying to 'ad lib'. The guy is too old, and has lost too much to be able to run around back there and ellude everyone and run down the field for a first down. What he can do is throw a nice tight spiral in the right place to the guy he's told to throw it to. He also doens't seem to have an issue catching a shotgun snap.

The bottom line for me is that both guys were pretty impressive, but Foles put the ball on the carpet 3 times in two games, and that's the exactly the kind of shit I didn't like about Vick.


yet he is still the fastest guy on the team and one of the fastest in the NFL, He dogged McCoy in practice

vick still has it all even at his age and there really isn't any sign that he's lost anything
iggleslover49
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Aug 16 2013, 01:54 PM) *
You squealed? biggrin.gif

All offseason you were praising Vick as being the best QB in Eagles history and dismissing Foles as dog shit, whilst others (and I note the good company I'm keeping here) offered considered opinions on the comparative strengths and weaknesses of the two QBs for Kelly's system. Based on that I predicted that Foles would get the job. And do you know something? He's playing well enough to have earned it.

However it seems that Vick is currently playing better and as long as he can sustain that level of performance then I have no objection to him starting. As soon as he slips, we have a very capable Foles ready to improve matters. And I look forward to you praising him when that happens tongue.gif

Find me saying Vick was the best in Eagles history and post it here... You won't find it cause I never said it. You've stooped to putting words in people's mouths now?
iggleslover49
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Aug 16 2013, 11:48 AM) *
QUOTE
Yeah - so I was correct. You're not an Eagles fan.

I'm more of a fan than most of the people on this forum. I atleast watch the games enough to know Foles was never better than Vick

QUOTE
NOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Criticize my family, but I'll be damned if you say anything negative about Donnie 5.

Feel free to remove your head out of Mcnabb's rectum whenever your ready ka.gif

Newsflash: I'm as critical of McNabb's career as anyone on this board. And I haven't been bashful about it. See...unlike you, I am capable of objectively critiquing a player I like (or once liked) and having my opinions changed based on new information.

In your case, Vick has been dog shit for the past 2 seasons, much like the majority of his career. While I think he is capable of doing some incredible things in Kelly's offense, and have been pushing for him to be the starter all along, the criticism upon him his well deserved. If you had any sense of objectivity, you'd be able to see that.

I'm as enamored with Vick's skills as much as anyone. But his career has largely been a waste. And he has no one to blame but himself.

I critique Vicks game just like anybody else's game. But the difference is instead of just being critical of just the QB I'm critical of the whole offense. All the down to play calling. You say Vick's been dogshit his whole career, but he also has won his whole career. At the very least played in championship games so I'm missing this dogshit style of play your referring to. If anyone has played like shit throughout their career it's Foles he simply does not win at any level
D Rock
QUOTE (samaroo @ Aug 16 2013, 02:35 AM) *
What about the future of this team? Vick is not our franchise QB going forward. Are we that desperate that a few wins this year means we don't have a solid direction going forward? Asm i alone in wanting to find our future signal caller?

I'm totally ok with sacrificing wins this year to see if Foles or Barkley is the guy, just so we know. Am i the only one?

I am too.

But is Chip? He needs to establish his program and get guys to buy into his unique methods. A few extra wins this season, while they might not mean much in the long run . . . would go a long way towards his firmly establishing his methods and program.

I can't stand Mike Vick. Never could.

But, if this is the open competition as we've been sold . . . there's little question that Vick has clearly won (or is winning) it. Foles has played admirably. I'd be fine with him as our starter. But Vick has played better. Bottom line. Unless Chip has been full of shit this whole time (I doubt it) Vick has earned the right to start week 1.

Ultimately, it's an easier sell to the locker room too. Even if Vick reverts back to that which he's been his whole career, he sits and the locker room wouldn't say "boo" about it. But Chip can't start Foles when Vick has clearly out played him thus far in the preseason without causing major problems in a locker room that idolizes MV7.

Vick has earned it. He'll have to play well to keep it. Either way, we're pretty well set at the QB spot. Regarding the future, I don't know if Foles is the long term answer even IF he were to out play Vick. Eventually they'll draft "their guy." I don't believe Barkley is him. I don't believe lead footed Foles is him either. So starting either of those guys for the sake of the future doesn't make much sense either.

It was a fair and open competition and to much surprise, Vick has won it.
Phits
QUOTE (samaroo @ Aug 15 2013, 09:35 PM) *
What about the future of this team? Vick is not our franchise QB going forward.

Vick could very well be the face of the franchise for the next 5-6 seasons. He is only 33 and doesn't appear to be ready to put out to pasture. In Vick, Chip has an established QB who looks like a good fit for his system. Why not ride this horse tell he exhausts himself?

QUOTE
I'm totally ok with sacrificing wins this year to see if Foles or Barkley is the guy, just so we know. Am i the only one?

And if neither of them are "the one" are you okay with sacrificing next season or the season after that? Even if Foles/Barkley is the future what is the rush to get them on the field? Whatever happened to the grooming process for a QB?

Right now Vick is the best man for the job, at least he plays like it. The #1 QB should have to earn his spot by playing like the best QB on the team.
Phits
After all this time ... we are in complete agreement.

QUOTE (D Rock @ Aug 19 2013, 01:33 PM) *
I am too.

But is Chip? He needs to establish his program and get guys to buy into his unique methods. A few extra wins this season, while they might not mean much in the long run . . . would go a long way towards his firmly establishing his methods and program.

But, if this is the open competition as we've been sold . . . there's little question that Vick has clearly won (or is winning) it. Foles has played admirably. I'd be fine with him as our starter. But Vick has played better. Bottom line. Unless Chip has been full of shit this whole time (I doubt it) Vick has earned the right to start week 1.

Ultimately, it's an easier sell to the locker room too. Even if Vick reverts back to that which he's been his whole career, he sits and the locker room wouldn't say "boo" about it. But Chip can't start Foles when Vick has clearly out played him thus far in the preseason without causing major problems in a locker room that idolizes MV7.

Vick has earned it. He'll have to play well to keep it. Either way, we're pretty well set at the QB spot. Regarding the future, I don't know if Foles is the long term answer even IF he were to out play Vick. Eventually they'll draft "their guy." I don't believe Barkley is him. I don't believe lead footed Foles is him either. So starting either of those guys for the sake of the future doesn't make much sense either.

It was a fair and open competition and to much surprise, Vick has won it.

Eyrie
QUOTE (iggleslover49 @ Aug 18 2013, 09:19 PM) *
Find me saying Vick was the best in Eagles history and post it here... You won't find it cause I never said it. You've stooped to putting words in people's mouths now?

You're very sensitive, so I'll go one further and offer an apology for suggesting that you dismissed Foles as dog shit.

Now lighten up - this is football we're discussing wink.gif
xsv
QUOTE (Birdman420 @ Aug 18 2013, 01:02 PM) *
yet he is still the fastest guy on the team and one of the fastest in the NFL, He dogged McCoy in practice

vick still has it all even at his age and there really isn't any sign that he's lost anything


Well, since McCoy recorded a 4.5 at the scouting combine, I wouldn't really use that as a gauge for how fast he is.

Desean Jackson runs about 4.35, and he's not even close to being one of the fastest guys in the NFL.

A couple of years ago, one of the fastest guys in the NFL was Chris Johnson, at about 4.25. There's probably a half dozen guys in the NFL now that are faster than that.

Mere speculation, but I'd put Vick right about 4.4, maybe 4.35 range.

Anyone that says there's no evidence to suggest that his running skills are diminished at all never saw this guy run the ball early in his career.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (xsv @ Aug 19 2013, 03:59 PM) *
Well, since McCoy recorded a 4.5 at the scouting combine, I wouldn't really use that as a gauge for how fast he is.

Desean Jackson runs about 4.35, and he's not even close to being one of the fastest guys in the NFL.

A couple of years ago, one of the fastest guys in the NFL was Chris Johnson, at about 4.25. There's probably a half dozen guys in the NFL now that are faster than that.

Mere speculation, but I'd put Vick right about 4.4, maybe 4.35 range.

Anyone that says there's no evidence to suggest that his running skills are diminished at all never saw this guy run the ball early in his career.


well....considering he ran a 4.33 at his pro day he really has not lost much at 4.35-4.4. According to those who witnessed his run against McCoy he blew McCoy away. Now as far as guys being faster than 4.25? Very rare for anyone to be better....in fact on a listing of guys in the 4.25 range there is not many that eclipse that....even Champ bailey was special at 4.28. Most of the guys who are able to beat those times don't play anymore like Bo Jackson and Darryl Green. Bo has the fastest time ever at the combine.

The following is all the 4.3 or better times since 1999

Time Name Height Weight Position Year Draft
4.24 Chris Johnson 5 ft 11 in (180 cm) 197 lb (89 kg) Running back 2008 #24 overall by Tennessee Titans
4.25 Marquise Goodwin 5 ft 9 in (175 cm) 192 lb (87 kg) Wide receiver 2013 #78 overall by Buffalo Bills
4.25 Tavon Austin 5 ft 9 in (175 cm) 174 lb (79 kg) Wide receiver 2013 #8 overall by St.Louis Rams
4.25 Darrius Heyward-Bey[11] 6 ft 2 in (188 cm) 210 lb (95 kg) Wide receiver 2009 #7 overall by Oakland Raiders
4.26 Jerome Mathis 5 ft 11 in (180 cm) 184 lb (83 kg) Wide Receiver 2005 #114 overall by Houston Texans
4.27 Stanford Routt 6 ft 2 in (188 cm) 193 lb (88 kg) Cornerback 2005 #38 overall by Oakland Raiders
4.27 C.J. Spiller 5 ft 11 in (180 cm) 200 lb (91 kg) Running back 2010 #9 overall by Buffalo Bills
4.28 DeMarcus Van Dyke 6 ft 1 in (185 cm) 187 lb (85 kg) Cornerback 2011 #81 overall by Oakland Raiders
4.28 Champ Bailey 6 ft 0 in (183 cm) 192 lb (87 kg) Cornerback 1999 #7 overall by Washington Redskins
4.28 Jacoby Ford 5 ft 9 in (175 cm) 190 lb (86 kg) Wide receiver 2010 #108 overall by Oakland Raiders
4.29 Josh Robinson 5 ft 10 in (178 cm) 199 lb (90 kg) Cornerback 2012 #66 overall by Minnesota Vikings
4.29 Fabian Washington 5 ft 11 in (180 cm) 188 lb (85 kg) Cornerback 2005 #23 overall by Oakland Raiders
4.29 Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie 6 ft 2 in (188 cm) 184 lb (83 kg) Cornerback 2008 #16 overall by the Arizona Cardinals
4.30 Yamon Figurs 5 ft 11 in (180 cm) 174 lb (79 kg) Wide receiver 2007 #74 overall by Baltimore Ravens
4.30 Darrent Williams 5 ft 9 in (175 cm) 176 lb (80 kg) Cornerback 2005 #56 overall by Denver Broncos
4.30 Tye Hill 5 ft 10 in (178 cm) 185 lb (84 kg) Cornerback 2006 #15 overall by St. Louis Rams

Vick's unofficial combine 40 time was 4.33.

Ike Taylor is one of the few who apparently might be faster than anyone....never knew that.
xsv
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Aug 19 2013, 06:35 PM) *
well....considering he ran a 4.33 at his pro day he really has not lost much at 4.35-4.4. According to those who witnessed his run against McCoy he blew McCoy away. Now as far as guys being faster than 4.25? Very rare for anyone to be better....in fact on a listing of guys in the 4.25 range there is not many that eclipse that....even Champ bailey was special at 4.28. Most of the guys who are able to beat those times don't play anymore like Bo Jackson and Darryl Green. Bo has the fastest time ever at the combine.

The following is all the 4.3 or better times since 1999

Time Name Height Weight Position Year Draft
4.24 Chris Johnson 5 ft 11 in (180 cm) 197 lb (89 kg) Running back 2008 #24 overall by Tennessee Titans
4.25 Marquise Goodwin 5 ft 9 in (175 cm) 192 lb (87 kg) Wide receiver 2013 #78 overall by Buffalo Bills
4.25 Tavon Austin 5 ft 9 in (175 cm) 174 lb (79 kg) Wide receiver 2013 #8 overall by St.Louis Rams
4.25 Darrius Heyward-Bey[11] 6 ft 2 in (188 cm) 210 lb (95 kg) Wide receiver 2009 #7 overall by Oakland Raiders
4.26 Jerome Mathis 5 ft 11 in (180 cm) 184 lb (83 kg) Wide Receiver 2005 #114 overall by Houston Texans
4.27 Stanford Routt 6 ft 2 in (188 cm) 193 lb (88 kg) Cornerback 2005 #38 overall by Oakland Raiders
4.27 C.J. Spiller 5 ft 11 in (180 cm) 200 lb (91 kg) Running back 2010 #9 overall by Buffalo Bills
4.28 DeMarcus Van Dyke 6 ft 1 in (185 cm) 187 lb (85 kg) Cornerback 2011 #81 overall by Oakland Raiders
4.28 Champ Bailey 6 ft 0 in (183 cm) 192 lb (87 kg) Cornerback 1999 #7 overall by Washington Redskins
4.28 Jacoby Ford 5 ft 9 in (175 cm) 190 lb (86 kg) Wide receiver 2010 #108 overall by Oakland Raiders
4.29 Josh Robinson 5 ft 10 in (178 cm) 199 lb (90 kg) Cornerback 2012 #66 overall by Minnesota Vikings
4.29 Fabian Washington 5 ft 11 in (180 cm) 188 lb (85 kg) Cornerback 2005 #23 overall by Oakland Raiders
4.29 Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie 6 ft 2 in (188 cm) 184 lb (83 kg) Cornerback 2008 #16 overall by the Arizona Cardinals
4.30 Yamon Figurs 5 ft 11 in (180 cm) 174 lb (79 kg) Wide receiver 2007 #74 overall by Baltimore Ravens
4.30 Darrent Williams 5 ft 9 in (175 cm) 176 lb (80 kg) Cornerback 2005 #56 overall by Denver Broncos
4.30 Tye Hill 5 ft 10 in (178 cm) 185 lb (84 kg) Cornerback 2006 #15 overall by St. Louis Rams

Vick's unofficial combine 40 time was 4.33.

Ike Taylor is one of the few who apparently might be faster than anyone....never knew that.


Mike Vick ran a 4.25 at his scouting combine, and was clocked at that a couple other times as well. It was never measured electronically, but assuming it's true, that puts him in the top 10 fastest players in NFL history.

If he runs a 4.35 now, there's about 15 other players currently in the NFL that are faster than that.


Phits
QUOTE (xsv @ Aug 20 2013, 09:06 AM) *
Mike Vick ran a 4.25 at his scouting combine, and was clocked at that a couple other times as well. It was never measured electronically, but assuming it's true, that puts him in the top 10 fastest players in NFL history.

If he runs a 4.35 now, there's about 15 other players currently in the NFL that are faster than that.

There are about +1600 players in the nfl, being in the top 15 is nothing to sneeze at.
xsv
QUOTE (Phits @ Aug 20 2013, 10:12 AM) *
There are about +1600 players in the nfl, being in the top 15 is nothing to sneeze at.


I never said it was.

I said he's lost a step.
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