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koolaidluke
few reasons:

1. I think Kelly regards Vick as part of the "old regime". A Reid guy along with Cole, McCoy and Jackson. Kelly wants his own guys and whereas McCoy and Jackson are too essential to get rid of, Vick is expendable.

2. I don't think Kelly cares for Vick's style of play. Even though it was only the first pre season game I think what we saw was a pretty good representation of the kind of QB Vick is: will make incredible plays and can torch you down field but struggles with the dink and dunk. Vick's strengths made him perfect for the Reid/Morningwood style of offense we've ran the last few seasons but a bad fit for what is essentially a spread no huddle version of the 90's West Coast Offense.

3. Kelly seems to love Foles and Foles is pretty much the prototype of what Kelly wants in a QB (i.e. boring, accurate, decisive)

4. If Kelly goes with Vick, the QB controversy starts the first time Vick has a bad game. Kelly definitely doesn't want that in his first year. If Foles is the guy, then Vick gets cut so even if Foles sucks, there won't be any demand in the locker room to go with Barkley.
MistahNickells
QUOTE (koolaidluke @ Aug 11 2013, 01:44 PM) *
few reasons:

1. I think Kelly regards Vick as part of the "old regime". A Reid guy along with Cole, McCoy and Jackson. Kelly wants his own guys and whereas McCoy and Jackson are too essential to get rid of, Vick is expendable.

2. I don't think Kelly cares for Vick's style of play. Even though it was only the first pre season game I think what we saw was a pretty good representation of the kind of QB Vick is: will make incredible plays and can torch you down field but struggles with the dink and dunk. Vick's strengths made him perfect for the Reid/Morningwood style of offense we've ran the last few seasons but a bad fit for what is essentially a spread no huddle version of the 90's West Coast Offense.

3. Kelly seems to love Foles and Foles is pretty much the prototype of what Kelly wants in a QB (i.e. boring, accurate, decisive)

4. If Kelly goes with Vick, the QB controversy starts the first time Vick has a bad game. Kelly definitely doesn't want that in his first year. If Foles is the guy, then Vick gets cut so even if Foles sucks, there won't be any demand in the locker room to go with Barkley.

how do you know any of this? or is this just how you feel and trying to project your feelings unto chip kelly?
koolaidluke
I guess I don't know, but I get that impression from hearing what Kelly has to say.

If Reid was still here, there wouldn't be any QB competition: we would be going with Vick cause Vick fits what Reid wants to do. I think Foles fits what Kelly wants to do but Kelly didn't feel comfortable just handing Foles the job. He wanted to make him earn it.
nephillymike
Nah. I believe Kelly when he says it's an open competition.

I'll repeat what I said before. Most of Vicks mistakes were in seconds 4, 5 and 6 of plays, as opposed to the first three seconds of plays.

If you take away most of those opportunities, you may eliminate most of his mistakes.

So far so good. Vick was spot on Friday.

Still only two series but I look forward to this battle continuing.
MistahNickells
QUOTE (koolaidluke @ Aug 11 2013, 02:33 PM) *
I guess I don't know, but I get that impression from hearing what Kelly has to say.

If Reid was still here, there wouldn't be any QB competition: we would be going with Vick cause Vick fits what Reid wants to do. I think Foles fits what Kelly wants to do but Kelly didn't feel comfortable just handing Foles the job. He wanted to make him earn it.

what has he said to give you that impression because I havent heard it can you please provide me with a link?
mcnabbulous
I find it odd that you think Vick does what Reid wanted to do. I think we are just about to see what Reid really had always wanted to do, from a distance.
nephillymike
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Aug 11 2013, 08:40 PM) *
I find it odd that you think Vick does what Reid wanted to do. I think we are just about to see what Reid really had always wanted to do, from a distance.



What do you mean? What part of what Reid's desires don't you think we've seen over the last 14 years?

Did he want to throw the ball more and put his QB in more harm??
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Aug 11 2013, 08:52 PM) *
What do you mean? What part of what Reid's desires don't you think we've seen over the last 14 years?

Did he want to throw the ball more and put his QB in more harm??


He wanted to run a true WCO. Donovan and Vick didn't facilitate that. The KC offense is going to look a lot like what we had with Garcia, but likely better.
They are going to be very solid this year.
MistahNickells
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Aug 11 2013, 10:18 PM) *
He wanted to run a true WCO. Donovan and Vick didn't facilitate that. The KC offense is going to look a lot like what we had with Garcia, but likely better.
They are going to be very solid this year.

If he is going to try to make smith throw like 60 times a game I would love to see how it unfolds because smith is not a 50+ to 60 pass attempts per game guy. Remember Haubaugh took a lot of pressure off smith with that tremendous run game that san fran had. And with him making smith throw 25+ to 34 passes a game smith was killing it. I would like to be wrong but I dont see smith being very successful throwing the ball over 50 plus times . But hey what do I know thats what they are there and I am here lol.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (MistahNickells @ Aug 12 2013, 07:09 AM) *
If he is going to try to make smith throw like 60 times a game I would love to see how it unfolds because smith is not a 50+ to 60 pass attempts per game guy. Remember Haubaugh took a lot of pressure off smith with that tremendous run game that san fran had. And with him making smith throw 25+ to 34 passes a game smith was killing it. I would like to be wrong but I dont see smith being very successful throwing the ball over 50 plus times . But hey what do I know thats what they are there and I am here lol.

Like I said, I think you're going to see a very 2006 Garcia-led Eagles offense, where Smith will throw the ball between 25-40 times a game, they will use lots of different targets in the middle of the field. I also think you'll see Charles used extensively in the screen game.

We became a big play, deep passing team because both McNabb and Vick are much better going down the field (and our weapons were better utilized in that capacity.)

The early McNabb-led Eagles (pre-2004) were much more similar to that mold as well, when Donnie had the ability to burn defenses with his legs. Once that well dried up, moving the chains became more and more difficult, thus we became more of a quick strike offense.
koolaidluke
QUOTE
He wanted to run a true WCO


I used to believe that but not anymore. Remember the way he made Kolb chuck the ball down the field? Remember the way he would have Vick take a bunch of 5 step drops even when Vick was hitting the short passes?

To his credit, I think Reid (who I still love) realizes how much he blew things by getting away from what gave him so much success in the past and is going to go back to being the old Andy in KC. I think the Chiefs are going to have a great season this year.

It will be interesting to see which team, the Eagles or the Chiefs has a better season. They are both ultra talented but have struggled for the last couple of seasons. Coaching changes should rejuvenate both teams. Reid won't be dealing with personnel in KC and I think that was a big part of what wore him down here in Philly, and also was part of the reason Lurie was so reluctant to initially give Kelly much Personnel control.


re pass/run ratio: I believe the Eagles were around 10th in rushing attempts by RBs last year, despite the fact that our D was allowing 30 pts a game. Meanwhile, Kelly ran the ball barely at all on Foles TD drive. The whole thing about Reid not running the ball is just Reid's reputation from the early 00's. The last few years his teams have run the ball a normal amount, actually way too much for my tastes.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (koolaidluke @ Aug 12 2013, 02:33 PM) *
I used to believe that but not anymore. Remember the way he made Kolb chuck the ball down the field? Remember the way he would have Vick take a bunch of 5 step drops even when Vick was hitting the short passes?

When did Kolb prove that he was anything less than terrible? The fact that he drafted Kolb was a clear indication that he wanted a guy that could run a true WCO. Kolb just proved incapable, because he isn't a very good QB.

Additionally, Desean being our best receiver facilitated the deep passing game as well.

I'm not following your point regarding Vick. I believe that is a product of Vick's inability to get rid of the ball in a timely manner, so Reid was trying to get him away from the line of scrimmage.

QUOTE
To his credit, I think Reid (who I still love) realizes how much he blew things by getting away from what gave him so much success in the past and is going to go back to being the old Andy in KC. I think the Chiefs are going to have a great season this year.

I think they'll be very solid. Don't know enough about their defense to say how great their season will be, but I think their offense will be extremely good.

QUOTE
It will be interesting to see which team, the Eagles or the Chiefs has a better season. They are both ultra talented but have struggled for the last couple of seasons. Coaching changes should rejuvenate both teams. Reid won't be dealing with personnel in KC and I think that was a big part of what wore him down here in Philly, and also was part of the reason Lurie was so reluctant to initially give Kelly much Personnel control.

Couldn't agree more regarding the personnel stuff. I actually don't think we're all that talented on defense, which is why I expect us to be pretty mediocre. That's largely Andy's fault. But he shouldn't be picking players.

QUOTE
re pass/run ratio: I believe the Eagles were around 10th in rushing attempts by RBs last year, despite the fact that our D was allowing 30 pts a game. Meanwhile, Kelly ran the ball barely at all on Foles TD drive. The whole thing about Reid not running the ball is just Reid's reputation from the early 00's. The last few years his teams have run the ball a normal amount, actually way too much for my tastes.

I think Reid's pass/run ratio is largely irrelevant. You and I tended to share an opinion regarding why Andy threw so much with Donovan, and correctly predicted that Shanahan would be forced to throw a lot too, given Donnie's inconsistencies and regular 2nd/3rd and longs.

They won't have that situation in KC this year, and they'll be a successful team as a result.
Bez
QUOTE (koolaidluke @ Aug 12 2013, 02:33 PM) *
I used to believe that but not anymore. Remember the way he made Kolb chuck the ball down the field? Remember the way he would have Vick take a bunch of 5 step drops even when Vick was hitting the short passes?

To his credit, I think Reid (who I still love) realizes how much he blew things by getting away from what gave him so much success in the past and is going to go back to being the old Andy in KC. I think the Chiefs are going to have a great season this year.

Well , I will be watching the KC 49r game this week , and I will tell you what my take is after the game. Irregardless of how well the Eagles and Chiefs are doing I would say the NFL is more interested in the Eagles than the Chiefs as far as being a hot sell. I genuinely get the sense many in the NFL and the commentators want KC to stay in the basement and rot . If the Chiefs start rising they will build them up in the media in order to tear them down. If the Eagles do well , they will tout the new Chip Kelly era and root for its continued success. That's part of what the NFL has become , there are favorable story lines and not so favorable , and the Snow Bowl between the Raiders and NE really set a tone for that kind of thing as well as the Seattle Pittsburgh SB season . The great thing about the Chiefs and Eagles is I can root for both of them without much stress. It would be great to see both of them do well and Andy succeeding wouldn't be a slap in the face of Philly but it sure would be for some KC haters.
nephillymike
As of two years ago, the stat was Reid had the highest pass to run ratio of ANY coach in the history of the NFL with five years or more experience. I haven't heard the update to that.

History!!!
Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Aug 12 2013, 04:38 PM) *
As of two years ago, the stat was Reid had the highest pass to run ratio of ANY coach in the history of the NFL with five years or more experience. I haven't heard the update to that.

History!!!


Reid's offense was a lot of shorter passes until the arrival of TO. He then fell in love with the bomb and Jackson's arrival was just a continuation of that.

mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Aug 12 2013, 03:57 PM) *
Reid's offense was a lot of shorter passes until the arrival of TO. He then fell in love with the bomb and Jackson's arrival was just a continuation of that.


I think it's because of the strengths of the weapons and QB's more so than his personal romantic feelings towards the type of play.

This season will likely prove that to be the case.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Aug 12 2013, 05:38 PM) *
I think it's because of the strengths of the weapons and QB's more so than his personal romantic feelings towards the type of play.

This season will likely prove that to be the case.


really? ya think?......obviously TO presented that...the part about him falling in love with it was drafting Jackson and Maclin or does Jackson have a resume of going over the middle to make a living?

And who would like to wager the Chiefs are in the playoffs this year?
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Aug 13 2013, 10:47 AM) *
really? ya think?......obviously TO presented that...the part about him falling in love with it was drafting Jackson and Maclin or does Jackson have a resume of going over the middle to make a living?

And who would like to wager the Chiefs are in the playoffs this year?

Maybe they drafted DJax because he was the best player available? Certainly Maclin fit that mold at the time.

A better question, if Andy was so in love with the deep ball, why did he go out of his way to acquire Smith?

Assuming I was given some odds, I would put money on the Chiefs making the playoffs this year. At minimum, I think they are the second best team in their division.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Aug 13 2013, 10:47 AM) *
really? ya think?......obviously TO presented that...the part about him falling in love with it was drafting Jackson and Maclin or does Jackson have a resume of going over the middle to make a living?

And who would like to wager the Chiefs are in the playoffs this year?



Are you saying they will or will not get in the playoffs and why or why not?

I wasn't following what you thought re: KC
Eyrie
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Aug 12 2013, 09:57 PM) *
Reid's offense was a lot of shorter passes until the arrival of TO. He then fell in love with the bomb and Jackson's arrival was just a continuation of that.

As was the decision to add Vick, who had never been known for his accuracy on short passes but who has a cannon of an arm.

mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Aug 13 2013, 01:49 PM) *
As was the decision to add Vick, who had never been known for his accuracy on short passes but who has a cannon of an arm.

Was the decision to add Vick really for the sake of having him lead the offense? Lets not forget that we had already drafted Kolb (who on paper fit the mold of a true West Coast QB) and he was the starting QB until week 2 of the 2010 season.

Vick was an experiment based on Reid's clear fascination with his athletic abilities. There is little evidence to support Reid ever thinking he would be the starter.

I think the goal was to rehab Vick, prove he had some value, and use him as a trade chip.
D Rock
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Aug 13 2013, 06:53 PM) *
I think the goal was to rehab Vick, prove he had some value, and use him as a trade chip.

Reid signed Vick to prove a point about giving guys who made mistakes and paid their price to society a 2nd chance. Anything that came of it (vick playing well, trade, whatever) was just icing on the cake.

If Reid's sons hadn't been arrested and jailed, he'd have never looked twice in Vick's direction.

mcnabbulous
QUOTE (D Rock @ Aug 13 2013, 02:18 PM) *
Reid signed Vick to prove a point about giving guys who made mistakes and paid their price to society a 2nd chance. Anything that came of it (vick playing well, trade, whatever) was just icing on the cake.

If Reid's sons hadn't been arrested and jailed, he'd have never looked twice in Vick's direction.

Yeah, that's probably much of it. I do think Reid was intrigued (like most coaches) by Vick's natural abilities. If he wasn't, I don't think he gives him another look either.

Regardless, the intention wasn't to build an offense around him. That was a product of the circumstances.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Aug 13 2013, 12:21 PM) *
Maybe they drafted DJax because he was the best player available? Certainly Maclin fit that mold at the time.

A better question, if Andy was so in love with the deep ball, why did he go out of his way to acquire Smith?

Assuming I was given some odds, I would put money on the Chiefs making the playoffs this year. At minimum, I think they are the second best team in their division.


I am glad you agree both Maclin and Jackson fit the deep ball mold and agreeing with me. Why did he get Smith? Maybe he has seen the light and is looking to return to the offense he ran pre TO.

I am betting that the Chiefs will go past the first round of the playoffs.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Aug 13 2013, 01:20 PM) *
Are you saying they will or will not get in the playoffs and why or why not?

I wasn't following what you thought re: KC

without question......while the Eagles are getting politeness lessons and their naols done at Kelly's salon the Chiefs will be going a round or 2 or more into the playoffs. Some of that will be Reid and some will be the fact that he took over a roster cursed by injuries last year but loaded with talent.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Aug 13 2013, 04:40 PM) *
I am glad you agree both Maclin and Jackson fit the deep ball mold and agreeing with me. Why did he get Smith? Maybe he has seen the light and is looking to return to the offense he ran pre TO.

I would say they are both deep ball threats, but that doesn't mean that's why Reid drafted them. They were both the best players available. If Reid was only drafting guys to fit a scheme (which we often did on the defensive side of the ball) I would have a major problem with it (and often expressed that as it related to our draft futility.)

The bottom line is that Andy completely adjusted his offensive philosophy to fit the personnel, despite the fact that everyone bitches about just that. He's a WCO offense coach, but he simply didn't have the pieces to run that offensive since 2004.

Even with TO, we had lots of big plays, but our offense was far less boom or bust than it became. The biggest change with TO wasn't the deep passes, it was the offense being centered so heavily around one weapon. The types of plays we ran were still very much in the WCO mold, which is where TO excelled as a receiver. The big plays were just a product of TO being a beast.

QUOTE
I am betting that the Chiefs will go past the first round of the playoffs.

I think this is very likely, although I don't like the sounds of that Charles injury.
Phits
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Aug 13 2013, 05:40 PM) *
I am betting that the Chiefs will go past the first round of the playoffs.

I'll take that bet.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Aug 13 2013, 06:10 PM) *
I would say they are both deep ball threats, but that doesn't mean that's why Reid drafted them. They were both the best players available. If Reid was only drafting guys to fit a scheme (which we often did on the defensive side of the ball) I would have a major problem with it (and often expressed that as it related to our draft futility.)

The bottom line is that Andy completely adjusted his offensive philosophy to fit the personnel, despite the fact that everyone bitches about just that. He's a WCO offense coach, but he simply didn't have the pieces to run that offensive since 2004.

Even with TO, we had lots of big plays, but our offense was far less boom or bust than it became. The biggest change with TO wasn't the deep passes, it was the offense being centered so heavily around one weapon. The types of plays we ran were still very much in the WCO mold, which is where TO excelled as a receiver. The big plays were just a product of TO being a beast.


I think this is very likely, although I don't like the sounds of that Charles injury.



no...you are right....TO caught the ball behind the line and ran down the field....unreal....TO ran a lot of deep posts and crosses......and he rarely went across the middle...he was a deep threat everywhere except the world you lived in...

Reid could not get over the excitement of the bomb......unless or until McNabb would get hurt and then he would go back to his roots....simple history
HOUSEoPAIN
Wow, this has gotten crazy.

I'm going to contact the American Psychiatric Association, to see if 'Reid-apologism' can be classified as a legitimate disorder covered by Title VII, in which case McNabbulous and Fantasy Fan can take off from work and get disability income.

KC making the playoffs is a ridiculous enough prediction, but GETTING PAST THE FIRST ROUND?! This is taking Reid-apologism to a dangerous level, like sleeping with a skeleton for 5 years that used to be your spouse.

Guys, they were 2-14 last year. 2-14. After a few years the league figured out Reid, and after McNabb left, the emperor (or Henry the VIII would be a better analogy) had no clothes.

He'll improve the team, but that isn't really all that hard, is it? They were 2-14. Rich Kotite could improve that team. Not to mention, Reid has an absolutely horrid record against AFC teams over his career. I give them 6 wins, and the year after he may push them to mediocrity, but that's it. Alex Smith < McNabb.
koolaidluke
Alex Smith is about 10 billion times the QB McFraud was.

The season will start in a month and we'll see then how things go. The Chiefs have a lot of talent and now that they have a QB they should be pretty good. Just like with the Eagles, it mostly will come down to defense.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Aug 13 2013, 08:09 PM) *
no...you are right....TO caught the ball behind the line and ran down the field....unreal....TO ran a lot of deep posts and crosses......and he rarely went across the middle...he was a deep threat everywhere except the world you lived in...

Reid could not get over the excitement of the bomb......unless or until McNabb would get hurt and then he would go back to his roots....simple history


Yeah -- TO, who was dominating the league with the strong armed Jeff Garcia throwing bombs, was exclusively a deep threat.
I never said anything about the line of scrimmage. Catching passes back there has nothing to do with the WCO.

I see a long offseason hasn't helped the delusional world you live.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Aug 13 2013, 08:47 PM) *
Wow, this has gotten crazy.

I'm going to contact the American Psychiatric Association, to see if 'Reid-apologism' can be classified as a legitimate disorder covered by Title VII, in which case McNabbulous and Fantasy Fan can take off from work and get disability income.

KC making the playoffs is a ridiculous enough prediction, but GETTING PAST THE FIRST ROUND?! This is taking Reid-apologism to a dangerous level, like sleeping with a skeleton for 5 years that used to be your spouse.

Guys, they were 2-14 last year. 2-14. After a few years the league figured out Reid, and after McNabb left, the emperor (or Henry the VIII would be a better analogy) had no clothes.

He'll improve the team, but that isn't really all that hard, is it? They were 2-14. Rich Kotite could improve that team. Not to mention, Reid has an absolutely horrid record against AFC teams over his career. I give them 6 wins, and the year after he may push them to mediocrity, but that's it. Alex Smith < McNabb.

Let's put the over/under at 6.5 and make it interesting.
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Aug 14 2013, 02:29 AM) *
Let's put the over/under at 6.5 and make it interesting.

I'll take the under on that and go one step further to say that Chip's Eagles will finish with a better record than Andy's Chiefs.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Aug 14 2013, 08:36 AM) *
I'll take the under on that and go one step further to say that Chip's Eagles will finish with a better record than Andy's Chiefs.

I think the Eagles will be about 7-9 or 8-8. I think the Chiefs will be about the same. Wouldn't surprise me if either team finished 9-7.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Aug 14 2013, 02:29 AM) *
Let's put the over/under at 6.5 and make it interesting.


That's fine with me, I give the Chiefs exactly 6 wins. They have a relatively favorable AFC schedule, and play the NFC East, which could be considered a pretty bad division, which gives them potential upside.

I think we should be expected to win more, but nobody in Philly will crucify Kelly if we win 6 games and show marked improvement. I think our upside is much higher than the Chiefs this year, because of whatever Kelly may be able to pull out of his ass, even a 9 or 10 win season is possible in our division.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Aug 14 2013, 10:14 AM) *
That's fine with me, I give the Chiefs exactly 6 wins. They have a relatively favorable AFC schedule, and play the NFC East, which could be considered a pretty bad division, which gives them potential upside.

I think we should be expected to win more, but nobody in Philly will crucify Kelly if we win 6 games and show marked improvement. I think our upside is much higher than the Chiefs this year, because of whatever Kelly may be able to pull out of his ass, even a 9 or 10 win season is possible in our division.

So what are the stakes here? You'll bow down to my superior football acumen when Andy leads them to a 9 win season?
Bez
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Aug 13 2013, 09:47 PM) *
Wow, this has gotten crazy.

I'm going to contact the American Psychiatric Association, to see if 'Reid-apologism' can be classified as a legitimate disorder covered by Title VII, in which case McNabbulous and Fantasy Fan can take off from work and get disability income.

KC making the playoffs is a ridiculous enough prediction, but GETTING PAST THE FIRST ROUND?! This is taking Reid-apologism to a dangerous level, like sleeping with a skeleton for 5 years that used to be your spouse.

Guys, they were 2-14 last year. 2-14. After a few years the league figured out Reid, and after McNabb left, the emperor (or Henry the VIII would be a better analogy) had no clothes.

He'll improve the team, but that isn't really all that hard, is it? They were 2-14. Rich Kotite could improve that team. Not to mention, Reid has an absolutely horrid record against AFC teams over his career. I give them 6 wins, and the year after he may push them to mediocrity, but that's it. Alex Smith < McNabb.
I wish I lived near you so we could wager for fun .. of course. I can see why you might say what you are saying and I really dont have a clue how the rest of the AFC is looking at the moment. But in a few weeks we will see what the beginning of the season looks like and then really make some wild predictions. Reid is starting over in KC , the chemistry might be good enough to be great ... or not . Not sure of you are aware of it but the murder ending up with a suicide of a player in front of the Romeo and others really was rock bottom for the Chiefs . If any team deserves a surprise season of great play it is the Chiefs. Andy's own personal family stuff fits into what the Chiefs are feeling as well. There is a motivation to really change things.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Aug 13 2013, 09:47 PM) *
Wow, this has gotten crazy.

I'm going to contact the American Psychiatric Association, to see if 'Reid-apologism' can be classified as a legitimate disorder covered by Title VII, in which case McNabbulous and Fantasy Fan can take off from work and get disability income.

KC making the playoffs is a ridiculous enough prediction, but GETTING PAST THE FIRST ROUND?! This is taking Reid-apologism to a dangerous level, like sleeping with a skeleton for 5 years that used to be your spouse.

Guys, they were 2-14 last year. 2-14. After a few years the league figured out Reid, and after McNabb left, the emperor (or Henry the VIII would be a better analogy) had no clothes.

He'll improve the team, but that isn't really all that hard, is it? They were 2-14. Rich Kotite could improve that team. Not to mention, Reid has an absolutely horrid record against AFC teams over his career. I give them 6 wins, and the year after he may push them to mediocrity, but that's it. Alex Smith < McNabb.


what is ridiculous is your inane dislike of the guy.....and your obvious lack of NFL information/knowledge.

They had 4 pro bowlers on defense that return and their terrible record reflected terrible coaching and a ton of injuries.

Regardless of what folks like you think the guy was a good coach. He could not have fallen into a better situation short of taking over the Broncos. Now if he sucks like you think then he will fail but if history is any indication they will do well....I only wish we could wager directly on this.....
Bez
QUOTE (koolaidluke @ Aug 13 2013, 10:49 PM) *
Alex Smith is about 10 billion times the QB McFraud was.

The season will start in a month and we'll see then how things go. The Chiefs have a lot of talent and now that they have a QB they should be pretty good. Just like with the Eagles, it mostly will come down to defense.
They had Jeff Garcia and Alex Smith . Garcia took a beating first and we all watched . ALex took it and took it .... he went through 6 qb coaches if I am not mistaken. Now we are going to see if he is underrated or not. He took the offense and practiced while the strike was looming in preseason.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Aug 14 2013, 08:04 PM) *
what is ridiculous is your inane dislike of the guy.....and your obvious lack of NFL information/knowledge.

They had 4 pro bowlers on defense that return and their terrible record reflected terrible coaching and a ton of injuries.

Regardless of what folks like you think the guy was a good coach. He could not have fallen into a better situation short of taking over the Broncos. Now if he sucks like you think then he will fail but if history is any indication they will do well....I only wish we could wager directly on this.....


FWIW, both the Eagles and KC are 7-1/2 for the over/under. The Eagles need to lay 140 if you bet the under and the Chiefs got to lay 130 for the under so by a hair KC is considered the very slight favorite.
Phits
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Aug 14 2013, 09:04 PM) *
what is ridiculous is your inane dislike of the guy.....and your obvious lack of NFL information/knowledge.

They had 4 pro bowlers on defense that return and their terrible record reflected terrible coaching and a ton of injuries.

Regardless of what folks like you think the guy was a good coach. He could not have fallen into a better situation short of taking over the Broncos. Now if he sucks like you think then he will fail but if history is any indication they will do well....I only wish we could wager directly on this.....

You're right, he WAS a good coach. It's not about what he was, but who he is. He hasn't been a good coach for a while.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Aug 14 2013, 11:29 AM) *
So what are the stakes here? You'll bow down to my superior football acumen when Andy leads them to a 9 win season?


I'll change my tag to 'Andy is a football God, McNabb was the problem' or something like that, and you write the reverse when the Chiefs finish with 6 wins or fewer.

I'm open to other suggestions if you have any.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Aug 14 2013, 09:23 PM) *
FWIW, both the Eagles and KC are 7-1/2 for the over/under. The Eagles need to lay 140 if you bet the under and the Chiefs got to lay 130 for the under so by a hair KC is considered the very slight favorite.


Remember also, Vegas doesn't have intimate knowledge of coaches and players the way fans of a particular city do. As far as some ESPN analyst is concerned, Andy is going to have the Chiefs winning 13 games in a couple years, and he's one of the best coaches around. This is why Hamels was still getting -160 up until a couple weeks ago (I made a habit of taking the underdog and collecting the next day)
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Aug 14 2013, 09:04 PM) *
what is ridiculous is your inane dislike of the guy.....and your obvious lack of NFL information/knowledge.

They had 4 pro bowlers on defense that return and their terrible record reflected terrible coaching and a ton of injuries.

Regardless of what folks like you think the guy was a good coach. He could not have fallen into a better situation short of taking over the Broncos. Now if he sucks like you think then he will fail but if history is any indication they will do well....I only wish we could wager directly on this.....


laugh.gif @ Fantasy Fan

Of course he was a good coach, for awhile. But after a few years he was figured out, and once he ran McNabb out of town, we were doomed to being worse than mediocre. Without Kolb (his vision for the future) having bones made of peanut brittle (thus forcing Vick to come in, who ended up playing like an MVP for 10 games), his record from 2010-2012 is something like 15-33.
In reality it was 22-26, not a whole hell of a lot better.

I don't think he'll 'fail,' in the sense that he will improve the team this year, and maybe within a couple years have a playoff team, but to think he's going to take a 2 win team in a new conference (which has utterly dominated him for 14 years) to the playoffs is absolutely bordering on psychotic.

Consider not being able to wager directly on this a blessing for you, saving some money. If we were to bet on Chiefs wins over/under 6.5 you might win, and it wouldn't shock me, but playoffs?!?!?! Uh, no.....
mcnabbulous
I love this idea that the AFC "utterly dominated" him. Do they play a different version of the game? That pesky designated hitter in the AFC just threw off his coaching style.

He lost to good AFC teams and regularly beat bad ones. It's football. The AFC was a better conference, with better teams. That was the variable.

Andy had no business being the decision maker in the personnel department, and the team's talent level dropped significantly over the latter half of his tenure. We had some top-end talent, but absolutely no depth. And we didn't draft a defensive playmaker between 2005 and 2012. You may notice that many people are predicting a pretty absymal defense this year. That's largely on Andy.

When Andy was put into a situation where he is required to coach someone else's team, he has proven to be one of the best in the game. It's when he gets to build the roster that he has shown to be mediocre.



Bez
"I see Andy, the coach I used to know," said John Dorsey, who has known Reid for nearly two decades, since they were young up-and-comers with the Green Bay Packers.
Dorsey now works alongside Reid as the Chiefs' new general manager.
"I sincerely mean this: He's having more fun," Dorsey said. "He's over here doing receivers, he's over here with tight ends, he's working with the tackles, he's jumping the quarterback, but that's good. He sees everything. That's coaching, and that's a good thing."
Without intending to do so, Dorsey may have put his finger on the biggest reason why things suddenly soured for Reid after more than a decade of success in Philadelphia.
He got away from simply coaching.

http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/sports/...36e49fdf8a.html
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Aug 15 2013, 12:54 PM) *
He lost to good AFC teams and regularly beat bad ones. It's football. The AFC was a better conference, with better teams. That was the variable.


The story of his career is that he regularly beat the crap out of bad teams, and lost to good ones. One of the things I've always said inflated his record was the fact that the NFC was extremely weak for the 3-4 years we were on top - though he still had a bad record against NFC playoff-qualifying teams. His record against AFC qualifying teams was atrocious, and he didn't even beat one of them until 2008 I believe.

So do you accept the bet?
nephillymike
Shouldn't the bet be who wins more games KC or PHI?

That would seem simple enough since the O/U are the same, and that one was 2-14 the other 4-12.

That would seem fair and simple.

Andy's biggest hurdle is that he has no Jim Johnson. That's when the house of cards fell here in Philly.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Aug 15 2013, 02:42 PM) *
The story of his career is that he regularly beat the crap out of bad teams, and lost to good ones. One of the things I've always said inflated his record was the fact that the NFC was extremely weak for the 3-4 years we were on top - though he still had a bad record against NFC playoff-qualifying teams. His record against AFC qualifying teams was atrocious, and he didn't even beat one of them until 2008 I believe.

So do you accept the bet?

What is the bet? I think the Chiefs will have a better record than the Eagles and I think they'll win more than 6 games. So if it's either of those, I accept. I just don't know what the stakes are.

The story of his career is that he consistently lost to teams that were better than his own and beat teams that he was better than. That's on par with every coach in NFL history.

Not many people made a living beating the Patriots, Steelers, and Colts in the 2000's. When we had a top-QB (pre-2005) not many people beat us.

Jim Johnson's loss was definitely a huge, but not because Johnson was the reason for our success. It's because he hid the obvious flaws in the defensive roster. When he was gone, it became apparent how bad our defense had become after years of draft day ineptitude.

I was virtually the only person on this board that was aware of our draft deficiencies. Most people thought Andy should be off the sidelines and our personnel guy only. The fact that we were even competitive for the latter part of the decade was a testament to our coaching.

Bez's post above perfectly summarizes my opinion on this upcoming season as it relates to Reid. He's back to coaching. The Chiefs have a talented roster and I suspect he'll get the most out of them.
koolaidluke
I like it, but the problem is that there is wall to wall agreement that the Chiefs are loaded with talent whereas a lot (most?) think that the Eagles lack talent.

The problem with the Chiefs last year was coaching and QB. The Eagles have question marks all over the secondary and LB corps AND are switching to a totally new scheme on D. They were also the worst D in the league last season, if not statistically then in actuality.

Personally I think both teams are talented enough that if either of them miss the playoffs, the season is a failure.

I'm going to say the Chiefs score 24 points a game and let up 22 points, which should be worth a 10-6 record and a wildcard spot. This is only if Alex Smith stays healthy.

At Oregon, Chip Kelly's D's were great about not allowing points despite the fact that they had no talent so I'll say that the Eagles D allows 23 points a game this season (they are going to be on the field a lot). How the Eagles score is really hard to guess. If Foles is the guy I would expect the Eagles to put up 25 points a game due to Kelly's ultra aggressive style. That's prob a 10-6 record and a wildcard spot as well.

The game between the Eagles and Chiefs will be too early in the season to mean much. So we'll just have to see who goes further in the playoffs.


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