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mcnabbulous
Everything I've seen over the past week is that since pads have come on, Vick has been the best QB in camp.

Don't kill the messenger.
Eyrie
Both Vick and Foles have played well in camp, but the caveat is that it's camp. We'll only get a true read on the situation after the preseason games.

What I will say right now though is that if it is Vick that gets the nod, he's had to earn it rather than having it handed to him on a plate as some seemed to think back in the spring. And whichever of the two gets the nod knows that he has to produce consistently because the other guy is ready to step in with no drop off.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Aug 6 2013, 01:30 PM) *
Both Vick and Foles have played well in camp, but the caveat is that it's camp. We'll only get a true read on the situation after the preseason games.

What I will say right now though is that if it is Vick that gets the nod, he's had to earn it rather than having it handed to him on a plate as some seemed to think back in the spring. And whichever of the two gets the nod knows that he has to produce consistently because the other guy is ready to step in with no drop off.

agree 100%
JeeQ
By the time Preseason is over it'll be...

1. Vick
2. Barkley
3. Foles/Dixon

Vick and Barkley have #1 QB potential, Foles ceiling caps him as a career backup QB
koolaidluke
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Aug 6 2013, 02:30 PM) *
Both Vick and Foles have played well in camp, but the caveat is that it's camp.


That's the big caveat. We go through this every year. I am incapable of getting excited about how people look in pre season because once the games start we realize that it was all a bunch of bullshit.
koolaidluke
Foles ceiling caps him as a career backup QB

Why do you say that? He's big and accurate and has a good enough arm. Maybe he doesn't amount to anything but I don't get why people are already writing him off.

Barkley however is just Marc Bulger part II. I have no idea what people see in him.
nephillymike
FWIW, My sons were down there yesterday and they said Vick definitely looked the best.

They said that Barkley was second best and Foles a close third. They did say that Barkley threw an INT later in practice.

They were doing 7 on 7's and they had three downs to get the 10 yards for 1st down. Foles and Barkley needed the third down to get the first down many times, whereas Vick got the ten yards either on 1st or 2nd down most times.

Take it for what it is, a scouting report from a 17 and 15 year old "scouts".

They also said without the hitting the practice was boring to watch.
D Rock
QUOTE (koolaidluke @ Aug 6 2013, 09:29 PM) *
I don't get why people are already writing him off.

Stupidity.
D Rock
Not so fast, nabulous.

Everything I'm reading about today's first co practice w. pats suggests Foles bested Vick today.

Went 12 of 17 (w 3 drops) and 3 TDs w the first team. Vick did well also, but most saying it was Foles best day since the pads came on.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (D Rock @ Aug 6 2013, 07:58 PM) *
Not so fast, nabulous.

Everything I'm reading about today's first co practice w. pats suggests Foles bested Vick today.

Went 12 of 17 (w 3 drops) and 3 TDs w the first team. Vick did well also, but most saying it was Foles best day since the pads came on.

Well - I posted this before that practice tongue.gif
koolaidluke
Just so we're clear, if Foles wins the job that means that Vick is getting cut, right? Having Vick as a backup would really divide the locker room.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (koolaidluke @ Aug 7 2013, 09:36 AM) *
Just so we're clear, if Foles wins the job that means that Vick is getting cut, right? Having Vick as a backup would really divide the locker room.

That would make sense, which is why I think Vick is going to win the job - to start the season at least...

I fully expected Foles to outperform Vick in the practice part of the competition. The fact that it's even close (with many reports being that Vick has been more impressive) leads me to think that he'll win the job.

Vick's play has, by all accounts, been more than sufficient to earn a spot on this team.
D Rock
I think Kelly is smart enough to realize the relatively meaningless nature of performing well in the red jersey.

Most reports of how gReAt Vick has looked come w the caveat that he held the ball too long and were he fair game to the defense, he'd have been sacked.

Said caveat always brings me back to Kelly's words at the time of his hire. Sacks are always on the qb.

This battle will be fought in the preseason games more than the practice field. Vick has always looked good in the "can't touch me" jersey, but struggles to parlay that into live action.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (D Rock @ Aug 7 2013, 11:17 AM) *
I think Kelly is smart enough to realize the relatively meaningless nature of performing well in the red jersey.

Most reports of how gReAt Vick has looked come w the caveat that he held the ball too long and were he fair game to the defense, he'd have been sacked.

Said caveat always brings me back to Kelly's words at the time of his hire. Sacks are always on the qb.

This battle will be fought in the preseason games more than the practice field. Vick has always looked good in the "can't touch me" jersey, but struggles to parlay that into live action.

I think the sack thing is a fair point. I've seen a bit of that over the past 2 days.

You and I disagree on the last point though. Vick isn't a practice player, from what I have seen. He's more of a sandlot guy that plays better when he's given the opportunity to just go out there and not think. I'm not sure how that fits into Kelly's system.
D Rock
The only reason to give grampa Vick the job is for the sake of the locker room.

You KNOW he'll get hurt or turn the ball over 2 dozen times by week 4.

Start Vick week 1, to appease the dipshits in the locker room (hello shady) and give him enough of a chance to remind everybody that deep down . . . he sux.

It's silly that you have to play that brand of politics, but se la vie.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (D Rock @ Aug 7 2013, 11:45 AM) *
The only reason to give grampa Vick the job is for the sake of the locker room.

You KNOW he'll get hurt or turn the ball over 2 dozen times by week 4.

Start Vick week 1, to appease the dipshits in the locker room (hello shady) and give him enough of a chance to remind everybody that deep down . . . he sux.

It's silly that you have to play that brand of politics, but se la vie.

Yeah, I really don't care either way. I have zero expectations for this team/this season.

I'm on record as saying the only chance we have of "winning" is Vick catching fire like 2010. With Kelly's new system, and defenses not sure what to expect, I think it's a possibility. Ultimately they'll catch up, but we could surprise a few people that way.
D Rock
My own expectations are somewhat higher than that. That's why I really dont wanna see the human turn over machine.

I'm expecting a run based attack which is ideal for our personnel. We're deep at half back and solid to very good on the o line. Add DJax as a deep threat and we only need a game manager at QB. How long have I (for one) been advocating for "consistently capable" over "occasionally great" at QB? (hint) For years!!! How long have we ALL been advocating a more balanced (if not outwardly run based) offensive attacke? For years!!! Well, we're about to get our wishes and see if we were right.

I think the offense will be fine.

The only questions (beyond QB) are on the other side of the ball.

I'm predicting a top 10 offense and a bottom 10 defense and somewhere around .500 ball.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (D Rock @ Aug 7 2013, 03:20 PM) *
I'm predicting a top 10 offense and a bottom 10 defense and somewhere around .500 ball.

I'm thinking 6-10 or 7-9. Unless Vick goes off. Which, as I said, is unlikely. But there is a small amount of hope it could happen.
nephillymike
I'll see your top ten/bottom ten prediction and raise you:

I think we're seeing top five offense and bottom five defense

AND

an 8-8 record.

As far as Vick goes, if he wins the job, that means he beat out a decent competitor, and that means he's playing farily well. So I'm OK with that.

Now if you had to design an offense for Vick's skills, it is this one. It is not Andy's WCO. Provided that he is OK at quick reads, he should do well. He's done nothing but quick reads, and has thrown a shit load of passes doing just that over the last few months that I believe the coaching and repetition will bring dividends. Vick did not get in trouble during the first three seconds of a passing play. It was second 4-6 where he made his mistakes. Take away seconds 4-6 and you take away many of his mistakes. Can he get hurt, will he get hurt? Odds say yes, and odds say about 3 games. If he does, we have a battle tested Foles to jump in. You can't run this read offense to it's fullest effect without the threat of the QB run. You just cant'. For all of Foles progress, he and Barkley are not a threat in that facet and in THIS offense, we need that threat. I'm hoping Vick plays well enough to win it b/c IMO, in THIS offense, he offers more upside than our other two options. I'm excited about the offense and you know we're gonna run the ball baybee!!!!

Now on defense, I think we are going to be horrendous. Maybe the worst defense we've ever had, making last year's look above average. I'm hearing no good news on that side of the ball. Cole and Graham are struggling. C. Williams is hurt again and seemeingly totally unmotivated. Chung, Phillips are not any good. Anything that is bad instead of poor on that side of the ball I will consider an accomplishment. Add in Davis' lack of prior success and I have no confidence on the D.

Still excited nonetheless. Not since TO's first year have I been this stoked for the preseason.
D Rock
We're predicting the same results.

The thing re Vick is that he's NOT doing the quick read thing according to everything I'm reading.

Nearly every example of every report about this great throw or that great play has come with the caveat that if the d was aloud to actually touch him it would have been a sack.

To my ears . . . That sounds like the same old Vick.

I'm constantly reading this from sheil, jimmy bama, gcobb et al. So too, they follow that up with a detailed description of how Foles came in and made an "anticipation throw" where he let the ball go b4 the receivers break and "threw him open."

I've read literally nothing that suggests that Vick has changed his spots.

I hear you that conceptually this offense plays to Vicks physical gifts. But in the end . . . Every offense plays to an über athletic qb with a canon arm and quick release. Is he, on paper more suited to Kelly than Andy? Sure. But it's still Vick and he simply is what he is at 34.

And we've yet to see either of them sans "can't touch me" jersey.

This competition hasn't even started yet.
samaroo
Even if Vick is at top form, I'd rather see a youngblood in there. We're not winning the SB this year, and Vick is not our future. I'd rather suck now to find our franchise QB, so he's ready when we do have a defense. Giving that up for a couple more wins this year doesn't make sense to me.
Phits
QUOTE (samaroo @ Aug 7 2013, 08:13 PM) *
Giving that up for a couple more wins this year doesn't make sense to me.

I'll take the wins. whoever is best at their position should be playing....whether they are rookie, 2nd or a 34 year old vet. let the cream rise to the top.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Phits @ Aug 7 2013, 07:34 PM) *
I'll take the wins. whoever is best at their position should be playing....whether they are rookie, 2nd or a 34 year old vet. let the cream rise to the top.


I am with Phits.

Give me the best at the position and a few more reasons to smile on Sundays.
nephillymike
QUOTE (D Rock @ Aug 7 2013, 06:42 PM) *
We're predicting the same results.

The thing re Vick is that he's NOT doing the quick read thing according to everything I'm reading.

Nearly every example of every report about this great throw or that great play has come with the caveat that if the d was aloud to actually touch him it would have been a sack.

To my ears . . . That sounds like the same old Vick.

I'm constantly reading this from sheil, jimmy bama, gcobb et al. So too, they follow that up with a detailed description of how Foles came in and made an "anticipation throw" where he let the ball go b4 the receivers break and "threw him open."

I've read literally nothing that suggests that Vick has changed his spots.

I hear you that conceptually this offense plays to Vicks physical gifts. But in the end . . . Every offense plays to an über athletic qb with a canon arm and quick release. Is he, on paper more suited to Kelly than Andy? Sure. But it's still Vick and he simply is what he is at 34.

And we've yet to see either of them sans "can't touch me" jersey.

This competition hasn't even started yet.


Haven't most of those guys said Vick will be the starter? If Vick has looked less than anticipatory on all his throws than maybe Foles is ahead after all.

On the preseason games rotation, I keep the first team offense in there for four series. I Belicheat can tell us is first team D is in there for four series also, then I go two series each, back to back then one series each. If he can't tell us, then I go Vick-Foles-Vick-Foles, Vick-Foles so that they get equal shots at playing with our ones and against their ones. I then play Barkley the rest of the offense up to the end of the third and then split the 4th between Kinne and Dixon.

Our problem is we have no depth at WR to be able to play our better WR's any significant amount of time with two more injuries today. It's friggin unreal.
JeeQ
My belief that Foles isn't our QB of the future is just as valid as your belief that he is. Except there's also evidence against Foles that supports mine:

Vick is in the twilight of his career. Many of you don't want him on the field period this year and think he should be traded or released. Some of you believe he's a walking turnover machine, and a sack or interception waiting to happen. But with all that said, Foles still hasn't been able to prove he's better than the guy you think so lowly of... and if so, what does that say about Foles?

Foles had a golden opportunity to come out last season and show enough flash in the pan to warrant trading Vick on the spot and making him the starter. What did Foles do with this opportunity? Stunk up the place just as badly as Vick did. 6 TDs, 5 INTs, 3 Fumbles, and the icing on the cake... he ended up injured before the season ended, and had to replaced by you guessed it... Vick!

So now Foles has yet another opportunity. An entirely new coaching staff with no favoritism towards either player. In fact they're leaning more on the side of finding a young QB of the future as evidenced by the Barkley pick. All Foles has to do is prove he's better than this old, injury-riddled QB and... he can't do it again.

He had seven games to do it and failed. He had training camp to do it and failed. Now you're telling me once a few preseason practice games are over he'll finally look better than Vick? Doubtful.
D Rock
QUOTE (JeeQ @ Aug 8 2013, 06:09 AM) *
Foles still hasn't been able to prove he's better than the guy you think so lowly of...

Sure he has. He outplayed Vick last season while being forced to play with lesser talent around him. You can stick your head in the sand if you like, but it won't change a thing in the real world.

Vick still being on the team suggests Kelly too has been fooled by the physical tools. But as we all know . . . Quarterbacking is more than simply physical tools.

You may get your wish. Vick may get the job. But yet again . . . the truth will present itself like its done year after year, after year . . . after year.
nephillymike
QUOTE (JeeQ @ Aug 8 2013, 12:09 AM) *
My belief that Foles isn't our QB of the future is just as valid as your belief that he is. Except there's also evidence against Foles that supports mine:

Vick is in the twilight of his career. Many of you don't want him on the field period this year and think he should be traded or released. Some of you believe he's a walking turnover machine, and a sack or interception waiting to happen. But with all that said, Foles still hasn't been able to prove he's better than the guy you think so lowly of... and if so, what does that say about Foles?

Foles had a golden opportunity to come out last season and show enough flash in the pan to warrant trading Vick on the spot and making him the starter. What did Foles do with this opportunity? Stunk up the place just as badly as Vick did. 6 TDs, 5 INTs, 3 Fumbles, and the icing on the cake... he ended up injured before the season ended, and had to replaced by you guessed it... Vick!

So now Foles has yet another opportunity. An entirely new coaching staff with no favoritism towards either player. In fact they're leaning more on the side of finding a young QB of the future as evidenced by the Barkley pick. All Foles has to do is prove he's better than this old, injury-riddled QB and... he can't do it again.

He had seven games to do it and failed. He had training camp to do it and failed. Now you're telling me once a few preseason practice games are over he'll finally look better than Vick? Doubtful.


Foles outplayed Vick last year. If we had the same WCO as last year with a new coach with no ties to Vick, Foles is our starter.

However, when you are running the read option, you need a QB who is a threat at running. Vick is about the best QB to be that threat, Foles is about the worst QB to be that threat. As long as Vick doesn't embarrass himself in the quick reads required to be made, Vick starts.

Run any other non read option offense used by any other NFL team, foles starts.

I hope Vick plays well enough to win the job b/c of his upside in THIS SYSTEM.

Don;t fall in love with Vick. He sucked ass last year and was outplayed by a rookie who had lesser talent around him b/c of injuries.
Phits
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Aug 8 2013, 12:48 PM) *
Don;t fall in love with Vick. He sucked ass last year and was outplayed by a rookie who had lesser talent around him b/c of injuries.

They both sucked ass last season. The difference is some are willing to give 'the rookie' a pass for his play.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Aug 8 2013, 11:48 AM) *
However, when you are running the read option, you need a QB who is a threat at running. Vick is about the best QB to be that threat, Foles is about the worst QB to be that threat. As long as Vick doesn't embarrass himself in the quick reads required to be made, Vick starts.

Yeah, this is the big x-factor here. If the passing competition is even close, and by all indications it is, then you almost have to see what Vick can do with the read option element of things.
Eyrie
QUOTE (Phits @ Aug 8 2013, 06:12 PM) *
They both sucked ass last season. The difference is some are willing to give 'the rookie' a pass for his play.

Foles sucked less than Vick, yet had more reasons to suck.

I'm comfortable with Kelly making it an open competition, although I'm concerned about the comment earlier in this thread (think it was Mikey) that Vick is the best fit for this offense and it doesn't suit Foles or Barkley. If that is the case, then why was Barkley drafted and what is the plan if/when Vick goes down? Change everything just when the other ten players are getting used to the new offense?
bwc2112
When going into an unknown battle..... do you send in your best at first or wait until you see what your opponents got. Then nail them with the big guns.
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