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Zero
I didn't want to hijack the other football post for this. nephillymike says:
QUOTE
On another note, why does a major league catcher not know on a bases loaded slow roller to 3rd base that you play home plate like a 1st baseman and you do not need to brace for a block AS IT IS A FUCKING FORCEOUT? Nothing like giving up two runs on a slow roller to 3rd w/bases loaded and your 3B playing up because your backup catcher is FUCKING STUPID. And he really was advanced in his knowledge (say up to an 8th grade CYO level knowledge), he would even give the 3B an inside target for a clear lane and to make it harder for the runner to take out the C on a slide. This team is hard to watch.
There's alot of things I like about Charlie but things like this and the inconsistent offense of this team seems to be a product of the manager.
nephillymike
Thanks for taking it out of that thread. I was just fed up and had to write about it mid thought during the Vick thread.

I wonder.

Does anyone remind the C of the situation before hand? Do you have to do that at that level? When I played in college, not so much, but our C was a captain and good/smart enough to play a few years in the minors.
but it was always mentioned when I coached grade school.

Somethings are on the player, like when Cole didn't cover first last outing.

I watch Dom Brown catch the ball wrong, 80% of the time.

I watch our outfielders never find the fence and come back to the ball when they have the chance.

I watch Rollins lack of hustle every night.

I watch Michael Young take a throw on a steal of third in front of the bag, thus exposing the bag to the runner and allowing him to get in safely on what would have been a sure out had he straggled the bag. My son, who played Freshman ball in HS, starts ripping him for this saying, as a 2B, how his coaches drilled that into him and the SS and 3B all the time.

They need a dunce board in that locker room, where stupid stuff is posted for ridicule or something.

Maybe when they were better, this went by not noticed. But they ain't "better" and can't afford stupidity.

Anyone see Howard's check swing single down the 3B line on a shift and check swing DOUBLE down the 3B line during a shift last week? Think any light bulb went on in the player or coaches heads? Nah. He's just rather guess at a fastball which is a change up and strike out at a league record pace. It looks like he's hurting so I'll give him some slack, but it would be nice if they did something that made the other team come out of that shift. I can think of worse things than batting .800 by continually bunting the ball down 3rd vs. lefties.
Zero
Does this mean you agree at least some of this is on the manager and coaches? Are the players held accountable for their frequent breach of fundamentals?
nephillymike
There is no accountability.

That is on the coaches.

People can't handle accountability, and I include fans in that.

Sit Howard and Utley vs. all lefties. They should be accountable for their .150 BA vs lefties.

Sit Rollins every time he dogs it.

It goes on and on.

Do that and Manuel becomes Bowa.


It's tough to criticize Manuel too much as these are veterans making these dumb mistakes. Word behind the scenes (mentioned on sports talk) is that he had no interest in Michael Martinez as the most recent call up but was over ruled by the GM. Why do we need Martinez? Manuel has one of the best records after the break so I definitely let him finish the year out. He deserves that much.

mcnabbulous
Guys, this isn't about Charlie. Frankly, he should have been fired 2 years ago. His limitations as a manager are well known. He was perfectly fine when we had top-tier talent, but to expect that guy to out scheme any other manager in baseball foolish. The Cardinals beat us simply because Larussa was that much better than Charlie.

Now that our talent level is middle of the pack, we need a strategist if we're going to compete. The reason we neither have top-tier talent or a strategist running the show is because we have a shitty GM. This all falls on RAJ. He built this shitty roster and he allows an overmatched manager to manage it.

We're not inconsistent because of coaches. We're inconsistent because our lineup is filled with inconsistent offensive players, top to bottom.
nephillymike
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ May 27 2013, 11:15 AM) *
Guys, this isn't about Charlie. Frankly, he should have been fired 2 years ago. His limitations as a manager are well known. He was perfectly fine when we had top-tier talent, but to expect that guy to out scheme any other manager in baseball foolish. The Cardinals beat us simply because Larussa was that much better than Charlie.

Now that our talent level is middle of the pack, we need a strategist if we're going to compete. The reason we neither have top-tier talent or a strategist running the show is because we have a shitty GM. This all falls on RAJ. He built this shitty roster and he allows an overmatched manager to manage it.

We're not inconsistent because of coaches. We're inconsistent because our lineup is filled with inconsistent offensive players, top to bottom.



I agree with most of what you say. However, I think the fact that the top paid talent is struggling so early is a surprise even to the most pessimistic.

Let's go position by position:

Halladay - I'd trade for him 1000 times again. Sucks about his arm, but maybe he'll come back. Even if he doesn't, it was worth it. Red Doctober!

Lee - I'd trade for him the first time. I wouldn't have traded him away and I'd trade for him the second time. He's a gamer, one of my favorite all time Phils.

Hamels - I sign him to the deal they did. The fact that his ERA is above 4 is on him, not Charlie.

Howard - signed to a long term deal before hitting free agency. I'd do that again. He was on a top tier HOF pace when they did it. However, I would coach him and expect him to adjust and if he didn't, I'd sit his 125M ass on the bench.

Utley - I'd sign him to that deal. Another one of my favorites. His knees going bad sucks. We can make a clear decision at of this year.

Rollins - as much as he infuriates me at times, I'd sign him to the three year deal they just did. He's the best SS in team history, and coming off last year, he was worth the deal he got.

Young - I'd do that. I'd do Polanco deal before that, and the Feliz deal before that.

Papplebon - They thought they were top tier contenders and you need a closer. They got one of the best. A little pricey, but I'd do it.

Adams - the best 8th inning guy in the league. I'd do that. Hopefully is ready and healthy going forward.

Madsen - I wouldn't have singed him with what he asked for. Hasn't hurt us.

Victorino - I wouldn't have given him $13M per year. Way too much. However, Revere was a stretch. Maybe if everyone else hit to the back of their baseball card, you could bat him eighth and nobody would notice.

Worth - I wouldn't have given him $140M, no way.

Pence - I'd do that deal again.

Ibanez - I would have definitely brought him back. Don't understand that one.

His moves were solid, especially for a team that has the resources to be in the $175M+ payroll stratosphere.

What is really clear to me is that our farm system absolutely has sucked the last five years. Even if you take the ton of "talent" we gave away in trades and add what we got in the majors from the farm and what we still have down on the farm, our system is horrible. The fact that we can't even find a reliable 6th and 7th inning bullpen arm after all these years is telling. That is where the problem is.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE
They need a dunce board in that locker room, where stupid stuff is posted for ridicule or something.


It might help - there's no excuse for the lack of fundamentals on the team. With the bases loaded yesterday, 1 out, the most ideal play would've been a ground ball right to Young - and we got it. Sure the throw was bad, but Quintero didn't give him an inside target - upon reviewing the play, Quintero actually was STRADDLING home plate - it's highly likely that even if the throw was good his foot wouldn't have touched home in time for the force!

What the hell are the coaches supposed to do? You learn those kind of fundamentals in Little League. It's like teaching Vick how to carry the football for the first time ever, as a 10 year veteran.

QUOTE
Anyone see Howard's check swing single down the 3B line on a shift and check swing DOUBLE down the 3B line during a shift last week? Think any light bulb went on in the player or coaches heads?


This has been a topic of debate. On the one hand, Howard can get cheap singles and doubles on those plays sometimes. On the other hand, the opposing team is perfectly cool with that - give Howard a single, and he's a liability on the basepath. Not only that, but he won't be successful all the time (it's not like he'll hit .400), and in certain situations you can take the shift off.

Oh well. Hamels is going to burst a blood vessel soon if this keeps up.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE
His limitations as a manager are well known. He was perfectly fine when we had top-tier talent, but to expect that guy to out scheme any other manager in baseball foolish. The Cardinals beat us simply because Larussa was that much better than Charlie.


Over the years it's become quite clear that the most ardent Reid apologists are the most vocal Charlie-haters (Eskin comes to mind). The reasons are obvious of course. His 'limitations?!' He's been here 9 years and his worst record is 81-81! He's won a championship of course, been to two. And even with that shitstorm last year we managed to make it interesting near the end, and finish at .500. We're Phillies fans pal - bitching about Charlie gets us the bad reputation we deserve. No manager in Phillies history comes close to what he's done.

LaRussa 'outdueled' him? By taking a smoking-red-hot Cardinals team into the postseason and barely beating us by the skin of his nutsack? How, by telling Lee to give up a 4 run lead in Game 2? A victory would've given us a sweep. By telling our offense to get shutout 1-0 against Carpenter in Game 5? LaRussa gets to hold his head up because of what he's done as a manager too, but in reality the guy is a jerkoff who would bat his pitchers 8th just to show everyone else how smart he is.

Charlie's made some stupid mistakes as all managers do, but this season is entirely on RAJ. He doesn't get to go to the bullpen anymore and bring in Romero, Gordon, Madson, or Durbin 1.0 - now he has to put Horst on lefties, and Durbin 2.0 and Aumont on righties - it looks like Du Frates is now our go-to guy, as he's the only one competent. He has a slugger rotting in the minors, and he has to put in Michael Martinez or Ben Revere, or John Mayberry. If I were him I'd start to go public and say we need some offensive changes ASAP, starting with bringing up Ruf - we were a stupid balk away from another shutout yesterday.
samaroo
Excuse my ignorance, but other than actually coaching the players and forming a roster, what doesa baseball manager do that's "strategy" Ok game day. I know he subs pitchers when they're tired and call for pinch hitters, but it seems like the players either play bad or good, and that determines the outcome.

This isn't a rant against baseball, just genuine curiosity from someone who doesn't know. I've been trying to get into baseball to tide me over through the summer months, but it's like trying to get into World of Warcraft now. There's too many rules, and everyone's waaaaaaaaaaay ahead of you already.
Reality Fan
I will never get the Charlie bashers but it does reflect on the idiotic rants about giving up anything for one SB win. Charlie is a very good manager who has his warts buts is a terrific coach. This is definitely on the players. How many hitting coaches can you go through before that hits home? Qunitero should be cut immediately after that horrible play. I like Amaro but what could he be thinking with calling up Martinez? I don't like Revere and that was a terrible idea from the get go but I agree with most of his other moves but Martinez just pisses me off. Why Ruff is not up is mind boggling. It would be a great boost to the kid and help get his head right after they screwed it up in spring training. Putting Brown in center with Ruff and Young bookending him seems like a boost to the offense at the risk of having a weakened defensive outfield but Revere is like batting a 2nd pitchers or worse.

It just seems like Amaro has made a string of bad move of late, he needs to get his head out of his ass.
Zero
Where was there a Charlie bash in this thread? Seems like a respectable exchange of thoughts and opinions to me.
nephillymike
One thing that it is time to do IMO, is platoon these guys. I think Charlie needs to micro manage a lot more.

For example, here are the On Base Plus Slugging splits vs. LHP for a few players for the last season and this season combined:


Ryan Howard - .627
Chase Utley - .643
John Mayberry - .819
Kevin Frandsen - 1.096
Freddie Galvis - .735

And for last season in the minors:

Darren Ruf - 1.318

Utley and Howard suck against lefties. Time to make the change to a platoon system and get the increase in runs that we'll need to close the gap. If feelings are hurt, oh well. Learn how to hit lefties and we'll put you in. From an offensive standpoint, Frandsen and either Mayberry or Ruf would pay dividends.

Check the egos at the door Charlie. We need to win games. We're 6.5 games behind both the divisional lead AND the last WC spot.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ May 27 2013, 12:00 PM) *
Over the years it's become quite clear that the most ardent Reid apologists are the most vocal Charlie-haters (Eskin comes to mind). The reasons are obvious of course. His 'limitations?!' He's been here 9 years and his worst record is 81-81! He's won a championship of course, been to two. And even with that shitstorm last year we managed to make it interesting near the end, and finish at .500. We're Phillies fans pal - bitching about Charlie gets us the bad reputation we deserve. No manager in Phillies history comes close to what he's done.


I'm not really sure what Reid and Charlie have to do with one another. I'm actually a fan of Charlie and forever grateful for what he was able to accomplish. With that said, no one would confuse him for a strategist. He's a players coach that did an excellent job of keeping an uber talented team loose when they needed it. Now that the team is less talented, he's often overmatched from a strategic perspective.

QUOTE
LaRussa 'outdueled' him? By taking a smoking-red-hot Cardinals team into the postseason and barely beating us by the skin of his nutsack? How, by telling Lee to give up a 4 run lead in Game 2? A victory would've given us a sweep. By telling our offense to get shutout 1-0 against Carpenter in Game 5? LaRussa gets to hold his head up because of what he's done as a manager too, but in reality the guy is a jerkoff who would bat his pitchers 8th just to show everyone else how smart he is.

That jerkoff is one of the greatest managers in MLB history. And yes, he outmanaged Charlie in that series. Certainly our players were to blame for that series loss, but we were at a clear disadvantage from a managerial perspective. It's not really a knock on Charlie. Like I said, Larussa is one of the best ever.

QUOTE
Charlie's made some stupid mistakes as all managers do, but this season is entirely on RAJ. He doesn't get to go to the bullpen anymore and bring in Romero, Gordon, Madson, or Durbin 1.0 - now he has to put Horst on lefties, and Durbin 2.0 and Aumont on righties - it looks like Du Frates is now our go-to guy, as he's the only one competent. He has a slugger rotting in the minors, and he has to put in Michael Martinez or Ben Revere, or John Mayberry. If I were him I'd start to go public and say we need some offensive changes ASAP, starting with bringing up Ruf - we were a stupid balk away from another shutout yesterday.

That was actually the point of my post. RAJ is absolutely to blame for this mess. He built this shitty roster. Most of the time, my blame leans towards personnel decisions and players. In this case, I don't really blame the players, because I know they aren't very good. I don't think Howard is dramatically underachieving. I think Howard is just not very good. I've been one of the most vocal opponents of RAJ, much like I was a vocal opponent of Andy the GM.

RAJ sucks and destroyed one of the best rosters I've ever had the pleasure of cheering for.

mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Zero @ May 27 2013, 04:58 PM) *
Where was there a Charlie bash in this thread? Seems like a respectable exchange of thoughts and opinions to me.

Apparently saying that Charlie isn't a strategist is "bashing."

Or declaring 3x World Series winning manager Tony Larussa a better manager is "bashing."
Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ May 28 2013, 11:38 AM) *
Apparently saying that Charlie isn't a strategist is "bashing."

Or declaring 3x World Series winning manager Tony Larussa a better manager is "bashing."


no...I think it was the "charlie should have been fired 2 years ago etc" and the silliness about top tier talent. While they had a terrific offense the fact that he was able to milk that pitching staff when he won the WS is enough of a testament to his strategy capabilities. The defense they played was also terrific. The current issues are really player related. An aging roster that was really tough to avoid. Who do you not sign at the time? Hindsight is 20/20 but only the Revere signing is questionable. How good would Larussa have been if Pujols goes down with a bad knee or Berkman or Holiday...you make it seem like the Cardinals had a crap team. It is not like Larussa ever won with "lower tier" talent.

The problem with the Phillies has been their bats going cold for a series at a time.....unfortunately the series they went cold in were the postseason type.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ May 28 2013, 09:45 PM) *
no...I think it was the "charlie should have been fired 2 years ago etc" and the silliness about top tier talent. While they had a terrific offense the fact that he was able to milk that pitching staff when he won the WS is enough of a testament to his strategy capabilities. The defense they played was also terrific. The current issues are really player related. An aging roster that was really tough to avoid. Who do you not sign at the time? Hindsight is 20/20 but only the Revere signing is questionable. How good would Larussa have been if Pujols goes down with a bad knee or Berkman or Holiday...you make it seem like the Cardinals had a crap team. It is not like Larussa ever won with "lower tier" talent.

The problem with the Phillies has been their bats going cold for a series at a time.....unfortunately the series they went cold in were the postseason type.


He should have been fired because he isn't the right manager for this current team. Not because he's a bad manager. We're at a strategic disadvantage in nearly every game we play. That's reality.

Like I said, I like Charlie, but his strengths are not from a strategic perspective. His best asset is that he can keep a team loose when the going gets tough. There's definitely value in that, but we need more now.

There have been countless questionable decisions. Giving Howard a 5 year extension at top dollar 2 years before free agency is #1. Paying Paplebon that much money was embarrassing. Trading 3 top prospects for Pence. The list goes on and on. That's how you become old.

Our World Series season had Utley, Howard, Worth, Jimmy, and Shane all within their prime (27-30). While I agree the pitching staff was light, Hamels was all world in the playoffs and Lidge had a legendary season. Our offense was good enough to make up for the rest. Implying they were anything less than a very good team is ridiculous. And when you get to a playoffs, it's essentially a crap shoot. Which is why you don't mortgage your future to trade for a solid corner outfielder (see: Pence)

Like I said, RAJ is the problem, but Charlie isn't the right guy to get the most out of this team. This team needs to scrape and claw it's way to a few extra wins a year. Charlie isn't the guy to lead that.
nephillymike
Be careful of breaking the team up to soon. People act like prospects are worth much.

Want a little mind exercise?

Go back and check the prospects we gave away for the people we got.

Add the total of all their major league production and compare them ALL to that of Cliff Lee in his brief stay here. They all don't come close to Lee, even when you ignore all of the other players we got (Halliday, Oswalt, Pence etc.)

Also, this team was a playoff team based on their record after the gang got back last year. Charlie has one of the best second half records of all mgrs all-time.

Play it out this year, and then go from there. Of course if we are so far behind at trading deadline maybe you think differently.

What were the SFG and STL records at this point the last few years?
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (nephillymike @ May 29 2013, 04:54 PM) *
Be careful of breaking the team up to soon. People act like prospects are worth much.

Want a little mind exercise?

Go back and check the prospects we gave away for the people we got.

Add the total of all their major league production and compare them ALL to that of Cliff Lee in his brief stay here. They all don't come close to Lee, even when you ignore all of the other players we got (Halliday, Oswalt, Pence etc.)

Also, this team was a playoff team based on their record after the gang got back last year. Charlie has one of the best second half records of all mgrs all-time.

Play it out this year, and then go from there. Of course if we are so far behind at trading deadline maybe you think differently.

What were the SFG and STL records at this point the last few years?

No one thought the Lee trade was anything but brilliant at the time. We really didn't give up any of our top talent.

I'd much rather have Jonathan Singleton in my system and not be stuck with Howard's bloated contract until 2016.

The problem with trading prospects for marginal MLB talent (see: Ben Revere) is that you no longer have those prospects as chips when legit talent becomes available. What we traded for Pence should have landed us a premium talent. Hunter Pence was never that. He was essentially maxed out when we got him as a 25 HR/Year guy. He's not a bad player, just dramatically unworthy of dealing that many top prospects for. Just look what we got in return for him...

We're simply not a very good team. I'll be surprised if we win 85 games this year. I suspect, as I've been saying, we'll be somewhere between 78-82. And the worst part is that we're mediocre and old with a barren farm system. So while you don't value prospects, we have virtually no position players in our system that inspire any confidence.

The only way we'll be able to compete over the next decade is by paying top dollar for free agents. We've essentially become the Yankees, but at least they continued to win. We quickly became old, expensive, and mediocre. And it's all RAJ's fault.
nephillymike
Another set back last night.

Frustrating!
Zero
What's Cole's problem?
nephillymike
At first it was wildness.

Next it was bad luck.

Now it's just bad luck and bad location.

When you have an ERA close to 5.00, there's plenty of blame in that mirror!
Zero
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jun 1 2013, 03:35 PM) *
At first it was wildness.

Next it was bad luck.

Now it's just bad luck and bad location.

When you have an ERA close to 5.00, there's plenty of blame in that mirror!

Except for bad luck, this isn't supposed to happen to a #1. What's up with Cole? It's almost like '09. Did the contract get into his head?
nephillymike
no I don't think so. He's got a great fastball. Location is the problem. I think he'll turn the ERA around. Can' guarantee wins though with this weak hitting crew.

Did you see Howard attempt a drag bunt vs. a lefty last night? Maybe there are starting to think.
Zero
Or maybe they're listening to the manager or their critics.
JaxEagle
Mikey,

I am no longer stressing about it (actually I haven't all season because they are what I thought they were). They are not good. End of sentence. I love 'em but it's time to rebuild. We just experienced a great era in Phillies baseball but now we have to start building the next one.
HOUSEoPAIN
Someday I would really love to do a study on contract year performance vs. year after performance. Everyone knows contract years bring more effort, but really Cole?

He's 1-9. While we certainly have blown other games, if our 'ace' was even 4-6 we'd be at .500. The last Phillies pitcher to lose 9 games before June was.....Kid Gleason, in 1891. Kid Gleason managed the Black Sox, and played when Benjamin Harrison was president.

Matt Beech, Omar Daal, Kyle Abbott, Hugh 'Losing Pitcher' Mulcahy. They never reached 9 losses before June - and they never made $25 million combined in their careers, much less in one season. Cole Hamels is now the worst pitcher in April-May in Phillies history.

Let's go Cliff!
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