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Birdwatcher
Sort of Chip's Pederson. If he totally sucks in camp or PS they can cut him with only a 500K cap hit if he is not on the final roster. If he makes the roster it will be because the younger QBs need more time to absorb the system and he is just cannon fodder until they are ready. There is also the small chance that he does well in Chip's system. In any instance I can't see the need to get all riled up about him still being here, unless of course you just hate him for various reasons.
JeeQ
I'll take they:

QUOTE (Birdwatcher)
hate him for various reasons.


For $500 Alex
mcnabbulous
Vick's previous indiscretions means that he doesn't have a lot of good will with the general public.

Being a mediocre QB is a lot easier to get away with when you've never murdered dogs. That's just a fact.
iggleslover49
QUOTE (JeeQ @ May 22 2013, 03:48 PM) *
I'll take they:



For $500 Alex

Exactly. Haters. Even if he comes out and lights it up they'll still complain about the ONE thing he isn't doing right. Some people ultimately just want to see him fail. But ofcourse, they won't come out and say that though.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (iggleslover49 @ May 22 2013, 04:10 PM) *
Exactly. Haters. Even if he comes out and lights it up they'll still complain about the ONE thing he isn't doing right. Some people ultimately just want to see him fail. But ofcourse, they won't come out and say that though.

He literally electrocuted and drowned all of his good will. He has no one but himself to blame. And that is coming from someone that thinks he served his time and deserved a second chance.

Reality Fan
The bottom line is that no matter what he did if he comes out and runs off 4 or 5 wins to start the season you won't find one of those haters......just the simple realities of fandom......until he starts losing....I am not saying ick will be incredible but Kelly has a track record of making things work...it is going to be interesting to see if that continues......he has a lot of offensive pieces that were/are very highly regarded so if he gets that working he could very well win right away.
samaroo
QUOTE (iggleslover49 @ May 22 2013, 04:10 PM) *
Exactly. Haters. Even if he comes out and lights it up they'll still complain about the ONE thing he isn't doing right. Some people ultimately just want to see him fail. But ofcourse, they won't come out and say that though.


I don't think that's as prevalent as you think. How many "haters" were there in 2010?


QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ May 22 2013, 04:39 PM) *
He literally electrocuted and drowned all of his good will. He has no one but himself to blame. And that is coming from someone that thinks he served his time and deserved a second chance.


As for this, i think he may have been guilty of a "hot-button" crime, and been the recipient of more ill-will than other (arguably) more deserving people. Big Ben doesn't seem to earn an equal share of hatred, and he (allegedly) accosted human beings. Same for Caruth. He killed a person, and it wasn't as big a story. And not to mention (as i mention) Ray Lewis.
iggleslover49
QUOTE (samaroo @ May 22 2013, 09:52 PM) *
I don't think that's as prevalent as you think. How many "haters" were there in 2010?




As for this, i think he may have been guilty of a "hot-button" crime, and been the recipient of more ill-will than other (arguably) more deserving people. Big Ben doesn't seem to earn an equal share of hatred, and he (allegedly) accosted human beings. Same for Caruth. He killed a person, and it wasn't as big a story. And not to mention (as i mention) Ray Lewis.

Everyone that hates Vick, still hated Vick. They just merely put that hate aside because everything is good when your winning. Hell, alot of people that say he sucks right now, was singing praises back then.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (samaroo @ May 22 2013, 08:52 PM) *
As for this, i think he may have been guilty of a "hot-button" crime, and been the recipient of more ill-will than other (arguably) more deserving people. Big Ben doesn't seem to earn an equal share of hatred, and he (allegedly) accosted human beings. Same for Caruth. He killed a person, and it wasn't as big a story. And not to mention (as i mention) Ray Lewis.

I'm not arguing that (although I do think his crimes were heinous.) My point is that he extinguished his good will. If you don't have that, you better damn well play good football. Rapelisberger and RayRay have two rings, which goes a long way in keeping a fan base satisfied.

I don't think you'll find anyone in the world that can hear Caruth's story and not peg him one of the most despicable human beings in history. He's rotting in prison and is largely forgotten.

If Vick thrives and is able to limit fumbles, it will go a long way. If he craps out any time before the Super Bowl, people will call for his head because he doesn't offer the value they crave from a football perspective (and, as I said, socially/humanely)
chefalan23
I like ray Lewis, but O.J. Simpson will always be my favorite athlete/murderer.
Dreagon
From an outside point of view, it looks like there is a part of your fanbase that just wants him gone. They weren't thrilled to get him, they tried to find ways to make peace with it when he did so good for a while, but now they just want it over with. They want to move on, and put the whole thing behind them...and to them, holding on to Vick as a placeholder for another year or two is just prolonging the agony.

And then there is another group where Mcnabbulous's point is well taken. They were open to the idea of taking Vick, but he wasn't going to have a large reservoir of good will. The only way he was going to keep this group on his side was to play sharp and to win. Once he stopped doing that, his reservoir of good will was simply too shallow for these people to tolerate it for long. Now a lot of them just want him gone too.

Vick may very well stay another year...maybe two. But unless he outright wins a Super Bowl, I don't see a lot of signs that he's going to be fondly remembered by a lot of Philly fans. It looks more like they want to kind of put an asterisk by his term and simply forget him as the QB between McNabb and whoever the next franchise QB will be. I don't think that really qualifies them as "haters" as much as people who never really thought he was a good fit for their team and didn't really want to see him there.
D Rock
QUOTE (Birdwatcher @ May 22 2013, 06:43 PM) *
Sort of Chip's Pederson. If he totally sucks in camp or PS they can cut him with only a 500K cap hit if he is not on the final roster. If he makes the roster it will be because the younger QBs need more time to absorb the system and he is just cannon fodder until they are ready. There is also the small chance that he does well in Chip's system. In any instance I can't see the need to get all riled up about him still being here, unless of course you just hate him for various reasons.

I don't like him still being here because the upside is limited, it slows the rate of development for the young'ns, and essentially presents us with a wasted year. Ultimately too, he represents the disappointments of previous regime and prevents me (at least) from going "all in" on change. I will be seriously disappointed having to sit through yet another 6 games of the MV show before he gets hurt AGAIN.

No Thanx!
D Rock
QUOTE (Dreagon @ May 23 2013, 01:44 PM) *
From an outside point of view, it looks like there is a part of your fanbase that just wants him gone. They weren't thrilled to get him, they tried to find ways to make peace with it when he did so good for a while, but now they just want it over with. They want to move on, and put the whole thing behind them...and to them, holding on to Vick as a placeholder for another year or two is just prolonging the agony.

Pretty much sums it up....

Ultimately, we're rooting for laundry. I remember ripping foreskinz fans and laughing at their "moral dilema" when they signed PrimeTime. At least he played well.

It's getting a bit icky continuing to root for Shady with his obvious high respect for women. But he's wearing the right laundry and hasn't yet killed anything . . . but I wouldn't boohoo if he were gone tomorrow.
Eyrie
QUOTE (Birdwatcher @ May 22 2013, 07:43 PM) *
Sort of Chip's Pederson. If he totally sucks in camp or PS they can cut him with only a 500K cap hit if he is not on the final roster. If he makes the roster it will be because the younger QBs need more time to absorb the system and he is just cannon fodder until they are ready. There is also the small chance that he does well in Chip's system. In any instance I can't see the need to get all riled up about him still being here, unless of course you just hate him for various reasons.

I'd rather see what the two kids can do so that we have an idea of whether they can take us forward than have a stop gap for a year that needs a different offense to them if he's to do well.

I was very vocal in my condemnation of Vick for his crimes but since he joined us (which I was against) I have been very careful to concentrate on his play and not his past. For that reason I gave him credit when he was playing well and have evenhandedly criticised his weaknesses as a QB when appropriate to do so. So no "hating" him here, although his past provides plenty of reasons to do so.
BirdsWinBaby
QUOTE (D Rock @ May 23 2013, 11:43 AM) *
I don't like him still being here because the upside is limited, it slows the rate of development for the young'ns, and essentially presents us with a wasted year. Ultimately too, he represents the disappointments of previous regime and prevents me (at least) from going "all in" on change. I will be seriously disappointed having to sit through yet another 6 games of the MV show before he gets hurt AGAIN.

No Thanx!


This!!

BirdsWinBaby
Oh yea and response to the idea that people will still criticize Vick even if he (lol)"lights it up"... as was stated thats just what fandom is

Y'know like how Vick sucked ass for 2 1/2 seasons but some still talk about how ( "insert BS") must have been the reason he looked bad Cuz Vick is really great!

Yea...like that
iggleslover49
QUOTE (Dreagon @ May 23 2013, 09:44 AM) *
From an outside point of view, it looks like there is a part of your fanbase that just wants him gone. They weren't thrilled to get him, they tried to find ways to make peace with it when he did so good for a while, but now they just want it over with. They want to move on, and put the whole thing behind them...and to them, holding on to Vick as a placeholder for another year or two is just prolonging the agony.

And then there is another group where Mcnabbulous's point is well taken. They were open to the idea of taking Vick, but he wasn't going to have a large reservoir of good will. The only way he was going to keep this group on his side was to play sharp and to win. Once he stopped doing that, his reservoir of good will was simply too shallow for these people to tolerate it for long. Now a lot of them just want him gone too.

Vick may very well stay another year...maybe two. But unless he outright wins a Super Bowl, I don't see a lot of signs that he's going to be fondly remembered by a lot of Philly fans. It looks more like they want to kind of put an asterisk by his term and simply forget him as the QB between McNabb and whoever the next franchise QB will be. I don't think that really qualifies them as "haters" as much as people who never really thought he was a good fit for their team and didn't really want to see him there.

There are some people who could care less how he plays. They "hate" him. Hell I've heard people say they will refuse to be Eagles fans as long as he's on the team. Not everyone is a hater please don't misunderstand what I'm saying. Some people genuinely like Vick and are just stating their opinions whether negative or positive. But some people are exaggerating some things do to overall hate. Its ludicrous to me when I hear people say Vick is one of the worst QBs in the league. Or he is unable to read defenses, like he's stupid or something. He's accomplished alot and has had the chance to win MVP. You don't do that without being able to read the defense.
iggleslover49
QUOTE (BirdsWinBaby @ May 23 2013, 03:56 PM) *
Oh yea and response to the idea that people will still criticize Vick even if he (lol)"lights it up"... as was stated thats just what fandom is

Y'know like how Vick sucked ass for 2 1/2 seasons but some still talk about how ( "insert BS") must have been the reason he looked bad Cuz Vick is really great!

Yea...like that

Oh no doubt. That's what "fandom" is. But the same fans critisize Vick and say he sucks, is the same way I criticize Foles and say he sucks. Because EVERY QB in this league as a weakness. Just because they have a weakness doesn't mean they suck. Like I say Foles has done NOTHING. Has NEVER had a winning season outside of High school. VICK sucked for 2and a half years. Foles sucked for 5 straight. Dude has NEVER been a winner and that's a fact. I don't care if ya numbers look good if you losing all the time.
mcnabbulous
You do realize people have a very good reason to hate Vick, right? His play on the field, when poor, simply brings it to the surface.

And Vick is the most physically gifted person to ever play the position. That's why he was in a position to win MVP. I don't think most people consider him stupid. For the most part, he simply wasted his talent by relying exclusively on his natural abilities rather than learning how to play the position.

I'm not sure if you're an Eagles fan, or simply a Vick fan, but Philly fans have a long history of disliking athletes that don't maximize their potential. Vick's not the first and he won't be the last.
iggleslover49
I not knocking people for hating Vick. But Foles better than Vick? Man Foles can't even find a way to win in college.
iggleslover49
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ May 23 2013, 06:42 PM) *
You do realize people have a very good reason to hate Vick, right? His play on the field, when poor, simply brings it to the surface.

And Vick is the most physically gifted person to ever play the position. That's why he was in a position to win MVP. I don't think most people consider him stupid. For the most part, he simply wasted his talent by relying exclusively on his natural abilities rather than learning how to play the position.

I'm not sure if you're an Eagles fan, or simply a Vick fan, but Philly fans have a long history of disliking athletes that don't maximize their potential. Vick's not the first and he won't be the last.

How many times last season did he rely on his ability to run?(his natural ability) He got MVP because he posted record numbers on the ground AND IN THE POCKET. Defenses tried everything to stop him and couldn't THAT'S why he was in a position to win MVP.

As for me being an Eagles fan... I don't care what you think. I said the whole offseason that I want the best QB to play. I WANT open competition. If Foles wins it because he earned it. Fine with me. I simply want wins. If you ask me though Foles is nothing more than a back up. Barkley is better. At least Barkley has proven he can win. Foles has not.

As for me liking Vick... Yes I do. I've been a Vick fan since his time in ATL. I like what he brought to the game and always had fun watching him. His dog fighting crime... Yes it's bad. I guess it doesn't hurt my feelings as much as other people because here in the South where I'm from I grew up around that kind of stuff. It's pretty serious down here actually. So to me, he's served his time and he has changed his life and has learned from his mistakes. So I ain't holding no grudge about that.
iggleslover49
I guess I'm a bad guy myself because one of my best friends growing up used to fight dogs for money too. But you would be wrong to judge him or me cause he's probably a better person than many of you all casting judgment.
iggleslover49
I question what you all would do if your children made a mistake like that. Made the decision to fight dogs because he's making thousands because his dog got a win. Would you hate your child for the rest of his life and never forgive him? Probably...
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (iggleslover49 @ May 23 2013, 06:02 PM) *
How many times last season did he rely on his ability to run?(his natural ability) He got MVP because he posted record numbers on the ground AND IN THE POCKET. Defenses tried everything to stop him and couldn't THAT'S why he was in a position to win MVP.

I'm not sure what abilities Vick relied on last year. None of that cream rose to the top.

QUOTE
I said the whole offseason that I want the best QB to play. I WANT open competition. If Foles wins it because he earned it. Fine with me. I simply want wins. If you ask me though Foles is nothing more than a back up. Barkley is better. At least Barkley has proven he can win. Foles has not.

I agree with all of this.

QUOTE
As for me liking Vick... Yes I do. I've been a Vick fan since his time in ATL. I like what he brought to the game and always had fun watching him. His dog fighting crime... Yes it's bad. I guess it doesn't hurt my feelings as much as other people because here in the South where I'm from I grew up around that kind of stuff. It's pretty serious down here actually. So to me, he's served his time and he has changed his life and has learned from his mistakes. So I ain't holding no grudge about that.

I've been one of the few that have always believed Vick deserved a second chance, even before he signed with the Eagles. I've always said I can't relate many of the environmental variables that contributed to his actions. With that said, I don't sympathize with him. What he did was beyond idiotic. He knew it was illegal, whether he was morally opposed to it or not. And ultimately it cost him some of the most valuable years of his career and potential development. Which is much of the reason his career has largely been a failure (when you consider he may be the most physically gifted person to ever play the position.)

He needed to be great on the field if he wanted to move beyond his indiscretions off of it. With the exception of 10 games in 2010, he's been far from it. It's really that simple.

nephillymike
QUOTE (iggleslover49 @ May 23 2013, 05:44 PM) *
I not knocking people for hating Vick. But Foles better than Vick? Man Foles can't even find a way to win in college.


Foles, the rookie, did have a better rating than the veteran defense reading QB. foles did become the only rookie ever to average 240 yds passing AND > 60% completion percentage, all while playing with more subs than Vick. AND, they did go with Foles after Vick was OK to play and Vick didn't play well when he went back in for Foles broken hand.

Not saying foles is great, but he played better than Vick as a rookie. why can't I expect him to have more improvment in his 2nd year than vick will have in his 12th?
iggleslover49
QUOTE (nephillymike @ May 23 2013, 10:19 PM) *
Foles, the rookie, did have a better rating than the veteran defense reading QB. foles did become the only rookie ever to average 240 yds passing AND > 60% completion percentage, all while playing with more subs than Vick. AND, they did go with Foles after Vick was OK to play and Vick didn't play well when he went back in for Foles broken hand.

Not saying foles is great, but he played better than Vick as a rookie. why can't I expect him to have more improvment in his 2nd year than vick will have in his 12th?

Like I said. Foles is a loser. NEVER had a winning season since high school. Das pathetic... As for being a pro. A balanced offense and more of a true west coast offense featuring more short and intermediate passing helped Foles out. Andy pretty much did what he always did when starters were down and back ups were in. Scale the playbook down and use the running game more. Pretty much like he did with AJ Feeley(bum that looked good under Reid) and Jeff Garcia.

But das beside the point. The point is all Foles does is lose at the end of the day. And hopefully he ain't sailing that deep ball again this year cause those numbers may look different.
iggleslover49
Foles numbers were better than Payton Mannings numbers were as a rookie, but he will not be as good as Payton Manning. Looking at numbers can sometimes be tricky.

edit: In fact if you want me to go by those numbers. Then we might as well induct Foles into the Hall of Fame right now.

RG3, Andrew Luck, and Russell Wilson will more than likely have better careers than Nick Foles. Sorry.
iggleslover49
What is Nick Foles' turnover numbers amongst rookies while we talking about numbers? Oh and keep in mind that Foles also had the least amount of pass attempts outta those rookies mentioned, which inflates his completion %, which in turn inflates his QB rating. Go back look at film of all the rookies, use the good old eye test and you will see that those numbers are but a mere illusion.
iggleslover49
I hope I'm wrong in what I'm saying. But I don't go by numbers. I go by everything else but. I've played football through middle school and high school. Numbers are ok. But numbers don't tell the whole story.
Eyrie
When Foles had NFL-talent to play with rather than a weak college team, he outperformed a twelve year veteran despite being a rookie.

Mikey is right - Foles will continue to improve. The odds are against him being the long term answer, but Vick is barely a short term sticking plaster so there is nothing to lose by giving Foles the chance and, if he fails, turning the offense over to Barkley in late season when the other players have adjusted to Kellyball.

Let's move forward rather than repeat the mistakes of the past.
iggleslover49
QUOTE (Eyrie @ May 24 2013, 01:26 PM) *
When Foles had NFL-talent to play with rather than a weak college team, he outperformed a twelve year veteran despite being a rookie.

Mikey is right - Foles will continue to improve. The odds are against him being the long term answer, but Vick is barely a short term sticking plaster so there is nothing to lose by giving Foles the chance and, if he fails, turning the offense over to Barkley in late season when the other players have adjusted to Kellyball.

Let's move forward rather than repeat the mistakes of the past.

Foles is just as clumsy with the ball in his hands as Vick. Quit trying to hype this kid up.

edit:a good QB doesn't need excellent talent to win. If he was as good as the numbers suggested, then he would make everyone else better.
samaroo
The only hate I'm seeing seems to be coming from you, towards anyone who's not Vick or in favor of him starting. It's a poor, cop out argument to call "hater" and automatically dismiss anything they say.

Vick is a phenomenal athlete, but an historically poor quarterback. Period. For every highlight play he made in Atlanta, he made two boneheaded ones. His Pro Bowl bids were a joke. It's voted on by fans! If all i watched was SportsCenter, i would've voted him to Hawaii too.

One great half-season over a decade long career is not successful. I don't want him here, and it has nothing to do with his past, his character, race, creed or religion. He sucks at QB, he's old, he's not our future. I don't want to maybe win a few more games this year. I want to win a bunch of late playoff games the next ten years. And that won't come from Vick.
nephillymike
QUOTE (iggleslover49 @ May 24 2013, 02:04 PM) *
Foles is just as clumsy with the ball in his hands as Vick. Quit trying to hype this kid up.

edit:a good QB doesn't need excellent talent to win. If he was as good as the numbers suggested, then he would make everyone else better.



If Foles performing better than Vick in Vick's 12th season vs. Foles rookie season isn't an indication that Foles is a good player, then it definitely is an indication that Vick is NOT a good player. If you don't give the kid props, then you need to rip Vick to shreds for that performance.

Pick one....................
Phits
QUOTE (Eyrie @ May 24 2013, 01:26 PM) *
When Foles had NFL-talent to play with rather than a weak college team, he outperformed a twelve year veteran despite being a rookie.

That's not entirely accurate.

The stat that Vick is indicted for most often is his fumbles:
2012: Vick (10 starts) 11 Fumbles (3 recovered)
2012: Foles (6 starts) 8 fumbles (2 recovered)

The next blemish is his sacks:
2012: Vick (10 starts) 28 sacks (153 yards lost)
2012: Foles (6 starts) 20 sacks(131 yards lost)

Completing the trifecta:
2012: Vick (10 starts) Vick 10 INT
2012: Foles (6 starts) Foles 5 INT

Vick had a 3-7 record
Foles had a 1-5 record


With that said the team that Foles played with isn't the same group of starters that Vick. Near the end of the season (many) starters were the 2nd and 3rd stringers....who Foles practices with.

Their stats are comparable, not so much because they are of equal talent/skill. It would appear that they are comparable as a result of the "success" of the play calling.

samaroo
If Foles and Vick's stats were even, how is that a good reflection on Vick?
iggleslover49
QUOTE (samaroo @ May 24 2013, 04:39 PM) *
The only hate I'm seeing seems to be coming from you, towards anyone who's not Vick or in favor of him starting. It's a poor, cop out argument to call "hater" and automatically dismiss anything they say.

Vick is a phenomenal athlete, but an historically poor quarterback. Period. For every highlight play he made in Atlanta, he made two boneheaded ones. His Pro Bowl bids were a joke. It's voted on by fans! If all i watched was SportsCenter, i would've voted him to Hawaii too.

One great half-season over a decade long career is not successful. I don't want him here, and it has nothing to do with his past, his character, race, creed or religion. He sucks at QB, he's old, he's not our future. I don't want to maybe win a few more games this year. I want to win a bunch of late playoff games the next ten years. And that won't come from Vick.

Fair enough...
iggleslover49
QUOTE (nephillymike @ May 24 2013, 04:47 PM) *
If Foles performing better than Vick in Vick's 12th season vs. Foles rookie season isn't an indication that Foles is a good player, then it definitely is an indication that Vick is NOT a good player. If you don't give the kid props, then you need to rip Vick to shreds for that performance.

Pick one....................

almost every QB in the league is going to look better when they're eating offa the short passing game like Foles was.
nephillymike
QUOTE (iggleslover49 @ May 24 2013, 05:25 PM) *
almost every QB in the league is going to look better when they're eating offa the short passing game like Foles was.



Nope.

Almost every QB is going to look like more of a warrior when he fails to see the open WR and where the ball should go but instead holds the ball for over three seconds only to get crushed by the rush. People say what a warrior he was instead of how he should have thrown the ball to the open Wr 1.5 seconds earlier.

Is Chip's offense likely going to feature more short passing or more longer routes than Andy's? If foles lived off that, as you say, and Vick held on to the ball a near league high 3.07 seconds per play, who will be the better fit?
iggleslover49
QUOTE (Phits @ May 24 2013, 04:50 PM) *
That's not entirely accurate.

The stat that Vick is indicted for most often is his fumbles:
2012: Vick (10 starts) 11 Fumbles (3 recovered)
2012: Foles (6 starts) 8 fumbles (2 recovered)

The next blemish is his sacks:
2012: Vick (10 starts) 28 sacks (153 yards lost)
2012: Foles (6 starts) 20 sacks(131 yards lost)

Completing the trifecta:
2012: Vick (10 starts) Vick 10 INT
2012: Foles (6 starts) Foles 5 INT

Vick had a 3-7 record
Foles had a 1-5 record


With that said the team that Foles played with isn't the same group of starters that Vick. Near the end of the season (many) starters were the 2nd and 3rd stringers....who Foles practices with.

Their stats are comparable, not so much because they are of equal talent/skill. It would appear that they are comparable as a result of the "success" of the play calling.

Your about to get hammered. Cause I've made all these same arguments before. Nobody understands this. ESPECIALLY when talking about Foles already being familiar with the backs ups from practicing with them since OTAs. People will think your crazy because they don't understand continuity. They don't understand that Foles timing and communication is better with the back ups because of continuity. They don't understand it because there are no numbers to support it and they themselves have never played the sport.
iggleslover49
QUOTE (nephillymike @ May 24 2013, 06:32 PM) *
Nope.

Almost every QB is going to look like more of a warrior when he fails to see the open WR and where the ball should go but instead holds the ball for over three seconds only to get crushed by the rush. People say what a warrior he was instead of how he should have thrown the ball to the open Wr 1.5 seconds earlier.

Is Chip's offense likely going to feature more short passing or more longer routes than Andy's? If foles lived off that, as you say, and Vick held on to the ball a near league high 3.07 seconds per play, who will be the better fit?

oh you must be talking about the max protect plays where EVERYONE was in the backfield pass protecting except the only two receivers running the deep routes(mac and jax) against a 3 man rush where EVERYONE drop back in coverage except the 3 guys rushing. Vick was victim of this type of play calling all season, but it's really apparent in the Browns game. Numbers don't show that though.
iggleslover49
QUOTE (samaroo @ May 24 2013, 05:09 PM) *
If Foles and Vick's stats were even, how is that a good reflection on Vick?

It's not. The point is they both suck. Foles is just as clumsy with the ball in his hands as Vick, like I said earlier. When I say that you see it as me hating when it is the truth.

The difference between the two though. Vick has had success at every stop he's been at regardless of talent level. And if you REALLY pay attention you'll notice he's more polished than Foles in the way of footwork, release of the ball from his hands, throw power, and deep ball accuracy.
samaroo
QUOTE (iggleslover49 @ May 24 2013, 05:34 PM) *
Your about to get hammered. Cause I've made all these same arguments before. Nobody understands this. ESPECIALLY when talking about Foles already being familiar with the backs ups from practicing with them since OTAs. People will think your crazy because they don't understand continuity. They don't understand that Foles timing and communication is better with the back ups because of continuity. They don't understand it because there are no numbers to support it and they themselves have never played the sport.


If this is true, than every time a QB goes down, they should just sub in the whole second string offense. Which obviously doesn't happen, because it's stupid.

Also, if Vick, the amazing athlete who excels everywhere he's been at every level, played at a comparable level with a rookie with a back-up supporting cast, how do you see that as good for Vick? Every time you make an argument splitting some hair (that the numbers don't show), you sound ridiculous.

This board has seen its share of McNabb apologists, and Reid apologists, but i think you may be three very first Vick apologist...at least, the first one north of Atlanta.
D Rock
QUOTE (nephillymike @ May 24 2013, 08:47 PM) *
If Foles performing better than Vick in Vick's 12th season vs. Foles rookie season isn't an indication that Foles is a good player, then it definitely is an indication that Vick is NOT a good player. If you don't give the kid props, then you need to rip Vick to shreds for that performance.

Pick one....................

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iggleslover49
QUOTE (D Rock @ May 24 2013, 07:25 PM) *
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Foles career is the equivalent of Geno Smiths season last year. Inflated stats due to short passes and yards after the catch. Yet you rip Geno and applaud Foles. What gives?
D Rock
QUOTE (iggleslover49 @ May 24 2013, 11:48 PM) *
Foles career is the equivalent of Geno Smiths season last year. Inflated stats due to short passes and yards after the catch. Yet you rip Geno and applaud Foles. What gives?

vick sux
iggleslover49
QUOTE (samaroo @ May 24 2013, 07:10 PM) *
If this is true, than every time a QB goes down, they should just sub in the whole second string offense. Which obviously doesn't happen, because it's stupid.

Also, if Vick, the amazing athlete who excels everywhere he's been at every level, played at a comparable level with a rookie with a back-up supporting cast, how do you see that as good for Vick? Every time you make an argument splitting some hair (that the numbers don't show), you sound ridiculous.

This board has seen its share of McNabb apologists, and Reid apologists, but i think you may be three very first Vick apologist...at least, the first one north of Atlanta.

The point in keeping the 1st string in is to keep the most talented players in. As a coach your hoping that over time continuity is built between the back up QB and the 1's. Ever notice when a QB goes down the play calling gets more conservative? This is because passing the ball is all about continuity and timing in the NFL. This isn't backyard football. The game plan you see on game day is practiced and timing is crucial and plays a big part in what you see on gamedays. Sure the back up passes the ball, but that is with plays considered as the "base" of the offense. These are the plays being run in training camp and preseason. Plays that everyone on the team should know. The twos haven't done much in the week in the way of preparation for the opposing team anyway. They've only practiced against the ones to give them a look at what the other team may do. Hopefully this explanation has helped you understand why the backups are not inserted in the game. If not, I don't know what else to tell you to make you understand without writing a book about it.
iggleslover49
QUOTE (D Rock @ May 24 2013, 07:59 PM) *
vick sux

But so does Foles. At least Vick knows what winning is.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (samaroo @ May 24 2013, 04:39 PM) *
Vick is a phenomenal athlete, but an historically poor quarterback. Period. For every highlight play he made in Atlanta, he made two boneheaded ones. His Pro Bowl bids were a joke. It's voted on by fans! If all i watched was SportsCenter, i would've voted him to Hawaii too.


You might want to check on things before you make these statements....the Pro Bowl selection is not simply done by fans...that only counts for a third of the vote......the coaches and the players vote and each segment carries the same weight so the fans have no more say than the players and the coaches do.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ May 24 2013, 06:32 PM) *
Nope.

Almost every QB is going to look like more of a warrior when he fails to see the open WR and where the ball should go but instead holds the ball for over three seconds only to get crushed by the rush. People say what a warrior he was instead of how he should have thrown the ball to the open Wr 1.5 seconds earlier.

Is Chip's offense likely going to feature more short passing or more longer routes than Andy's? If foles lived off that, as you say, and Vick held on to the ball a near league high 3.07 seconds per play, who will be the better fit?


I don't know which one is better at this point but watching the games again certainly showed me one thing...they are still painful to watch and Vick was often running for his life 1 second after the snap so to suggest he sat back and missed open targets is a tad disingenuous. I don't know if he has anything left but he often had no time to make a decision.


As far as playing with first stringers? Simply silly......They started out without their best left tackle....then lost their center...one could make the argument that Folrs benefited from the fact that the replacements had 8 weeks to learn their positions and get coached while Vick had to pay the price for their learning curve.

personally I want Barkley to play right away. He has started and won at every level he has played at and has run his own offense...I like that kind of leadership.
samaroo
QUOTE (iggleslover49 @ May 24 2013, 07:02 PM) *
The point in keeping the 1st string in is to keep the most talented players in. As a coach your hoping that over time continuity is built between the back up QB and the 1's. Ever notice when a QB goes down the play calling gets more conservative? This is because passing the ball is all about continuity and timing in the NFL. This isn't backyard football. The game plan you see on game day is practiced and timing is crucial and plays a big part in what you see on gamedays. Sure the back up passes the ball, but that is with plays considered as the "base" of the offense. These are the plays being run in training camp and preseason. Plays that everyone on the team should know. The twos haven't done much in the week in the way of preparation for the opposing team anyway. They've only practiced against the ones to give them a look at what the other team may do. Hopefully this explanation has helped you understand why the backups are not inserted in the game. If not, I don't know what else to tell you to make you understand without writing a book about it.


So, the starters are starters because they're better? I'm with you on that. It's when you say that Foles had an advantage by playing with the scrubs that we disagree.

And RF, i know it's not ONLY the fans that vote. I'm typing on my phone here. I'm trying to make my points concise. I didn't know i had to spell out every detail along the way. But i see how what i said could be misconstrued (I guess.)
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