Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Chip Kelly teaches Fumble-tron how to carry the football
Eagles Forum > Philadelphia Eagles Message Board > Philadelphia Eagles or Football Related Discussion
HOUSEoPAIN
I don't know whether to laugh or cry, but apparently you can teach an old dog-killer new tricks.

Wow.
Phits
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ May 21 2013, 10:02 AM) *
I don't know whether to laugh or cry, but apparently you can teach an old dog-killer new tricks.

Wow.

I find it hard to believe that Andy Reid didn't pick up on this and try to teach him this before.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (Phits @ May 21 2013, 10:30 AM) *
I find it hard to believe that Andy Reid didn't pick up on this and try to teach him this before.


Maybe he was too distracted from looking forward to 'Taco Tuesdays?'
D Rock
No Doubt.

Ron Mexico luvs him some tacos!!!

devil03.gif
nephillymike
Next up on the education of Mike Vick:

Sliding 101.

Take him in a gym, put long sweat pants on him and teach him the proper way to slide like a baseball player does.

I used to do it every year when coaching CYO. It takes about 1/2 hour with about 20 kids. After that, all but maybe three have it down and then after they do it 1/2 hr more for those three the next time in the gym and they get it down no problem.

I have confidence that if 100% of any 7th grade kids who have ever played baseball for our CYO teams can get it, our $100M QB will do just fine.

I wonder if I teach him, will I get an article too??
Eyrie
All very well in a practice environment, but in the heat of the game 30-odd years of holding the ball loosely will be automatic.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Eyrie @ May 21 2013, 01:13 PM) *
All very well in a practice environment, but in the heat of the game 30-odd years of holding the ball loosely will be automatic.

Yep. That is my expectation, too.
Bocadelphia Eagles John
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ May 21 2013, 10:02 AM) *
I don't know whether to laugh or cryWow.


me too !
samaroo
I seem to remember a lot of his fumbles where the ball wasn't tucked at all, incorrectly or not. If you carry the ball in your hand, you're going to fumble.

Randall used to give me heartburn he did that so much.
samaroo
Dupe.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (samaroo @ May 21 2013, 02:54 PM) *
I seem to remember a lot of his fumbles where the ball wasn't tucked at all, incorrectly or not. If you carry the ball in your hand, you're going to fumble.


Yeah I seem to remember him doing that a lot as well, 'palming the ball' - maybe it's because he wasn't fully committed to running in some cases, and was looking for a pass still? If we can cut down on his fumbles that alone should add a win or two to our total, assuming he starts.
Zero
It's very hard to believe nobody from pee wee to Andy taught MV how to carry the ball. If it's true there are a few coaches who should be very embarassed and if it's not true then he won't be any better than he was before.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (Zero @ May 21 2013, 05:23 PM) *
It's very hard to believe nobody from pee wee to Andy taught MV how to carry the ball. If it's true there are a few coaches who should be very embarassed and if it's not true then he won't be any better than he was before.


Funny, basic fundamentals were taught to him at an early age by his father, and by his cousin Aaron Brooks. That might explain it. wink.gif

I would imagine that from pee-wees all the way to the NFL he was basically superhuman, and his ball-carrying fundamentals weren't really relevant. I don't think he ever lost a fumble at Virginia Tech - mostly, he was 10 yards ahead of the closest defender when he ran. Also, he would regularly pass for over 400 yards.

Now that he's not as fast as he used to be, his lack of fundamentals has shown and is a major concern - I really wouldn't be surprised if he was just taught how to properly carry the ball for the first time ever.
Zero
Are you suggesting that Andy, Marty and all the Kings horses never suggested to Vick that he hold the ball differently after a series of fumbles? I guess it's possible but if true I'm even happier that Andy is gone and Chiperdoodle is in Philly.
samaroo
I think whether he was taught how to carry a football before is a moot point. If he's been doing it wrong for 20 years, at this stage, that's how he's going to do it. When a play breaks down and he's going on instinct, his instinct is going to have him do it the wrong way. No matter his previous or current coaching, it's teaching a very old dog a new trick.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ May 21 2013, 07:10 PM) *
Funny, basic fundamentals were taught to him at an early age by his father, and by his cousin Aaron Brooks. That might explain it. wink.gif

I would imagine that from pee-wees all the way to the NFL he was basically superhuman, and his ball-carrying fundamentals weren't really relevant. I don't think he ever lost a fumble at Virginia Tech - mostly, he was 10 yards ahead of the closest defender when he ran. Also, he would regularly pass for over 400 yards.

Now that he's not as fast as he used to be, his lack of fundamentals has shown and is a major concern - I really wouldn't be surprised if he was just taught how to properly carry the ball for the first time ever.


Same thing with Bryce Brown. The difference is that one guy is likely capable of learning new fundamentals. The other is Mike Vick.
Phits
QUOTE (samaroo @ May 21 2013, 08:51 PM) *
it's teaching a very old dog a new trick.

Except he isn't a dog, and it isn't uncommon to have an "older" player adapt his style of play in order to get a few more years of playing time.
D Rock
QUOTE (Phits @ May 22 2013, 03:46 AM) *
Except he isn't a dog, and it isn't uncommon to have an "older" player adapt his style of play in order to get a few more years of playing time.

example?
Phits
QUOTE (D Rock @ May 22 2013, 12:30 AM) *
example?

How about Randall Cunningham...Chris Carter...Rich Gannon...Hell Rod Woodson transitioned from CB to S to add a couple of more years to his career. Like I suggested, it doesn't happen often but it certainly isn't uncommon.
iggleslover49
I've mentioned the thought of Kelly teaching Vick how to hold the ball long ago. Nobody wants to hear the fact that maybe Vick is coachable. Many people say the same BS cliche. Can't teach an old dog new tricks. I said it back then and I'll say it right now; that's ignorance. And is the reason hater is a part of my vocabulary here.
iggleslover49
And there are running backs that have been running the ball all their lives that come to the pros and fumble. They can he taught but some people have it in their head that Vick absolutely can't be taught. Again, haters.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (iggleslover49 @ May 22 2013, 06:02 AM) *
And there are running backs that have been running the ball all their lives that come to the pros and fumble. They can he taught but some people have it in their head that Vick absolutely can't be taught. Again, haters.


Usually it doesn't happen for guys in their 30's. Vick's entire game is based on instincts. Other guys excel due to fundamentals. Ultimately, it's most likely that Vick's natural instincts will take over and he'll revert back to the behaviors that have made up most of his career.
Phits' examples weren't really relevant. Rod Woodson was a great corner who moved to safety as his athleticism declined. He didn't learn some brand new football skill. Rich Gannon didn't change his style of play, he found a system that worked for his skills. Chris Carter stopped doing coke. Not sure how that is relevant. And I don't know what changed about Randall. Other than him having the luxury of chucking it to Moss and Carter. It's not like Randall was without skill before that.
We are talking about a learned behavior. Not ability.
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ May 22 2013, 09:44 AM) *
Usually it doesn't happen for guys in their 30's. Vick's entire game is based on instincts. Other guys excel due to fundamentals. Ultimately, it's most likely that Vick's natural instincts will take over and he'll revert back to the behaviors that have made up most of his career.
Phits' examples weren't really relevant. Rod Woodson was a great corner who moved to safety as his athleticism declined. He didn't learn some brand new football skill. Rich Gannon didn't change his style of play, he found a system that worked for his skills. Chris Carter stopped doing coke. Not sure how that is relevant. And I don't know what changed about Randall. Other than him having the luxury of chucking it to Moss and Carter. It's not like Randall was without skill before that.
We are talking about a learned behavior. Not ability.

Not fumbling the ball is a an ability that can be learned. Tiki Barber became a pro-bowl caliber player once he learned to control his fumbles....Adrian Peterson used to be the Fumble King

As for my examples;

Rod Woodson: S and CB are 2 different positions. They have similarities but there is a reason that players don't often transition from one to the other. It's a lot of work and patience.

Rich Gannon: He was a washout who didn't take the time to learn. Once he was 'forced out' of the NFL he realized he had better develop his God given talent.

Chris Carter: from the ages of 22-27 he averaged just under 600 yards per season from 28-36 he averaged over 1000 yards per season. whether it is because he resolved his substance abuse issues or any other reason, he "learned a new trick, as an old dog"

Randall Cunningham : He went from the Lord of Fumbles to the Ball Protection King.
mcnabbulous
The main difference in Randall's fumbling came from the fact that he went from running QB to passing QB. Additionally, he wasn't getting sacked 4 times a game, which dramatically decreased his fumbling.

I don't recall any dramatic change to his ball protection that resulted in him becoming some "ball protection king."
D Rock
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ May 22 2013, 01:44 PM) *
Usually it doesn't happen for guys in their 30's. Vick's entire game is based on instincts. Other guys excel due to fundamentals. Ultimately, it's most likely that Vick's natural instincts will take over and he'll revert back to the behaviors that have made up most of his career.
Phits' examples weren't really relevant. Rod Woodson was a great corner who moved to safety as his athleticism declined. He didn't learn some brand new football skill. Rich Gannon didn't change his style of play, he found a system that worked for his skills. Chris Carter stopped doing coke. Not sure how that is relevant. And I don't know what changed about Randall. Other than him having the luxury of chucking it to Moss and Carter. It's not like Randall was without skill before that.
We are talking about a learned behavior. Not ability.

Spot on. I was going to poke the obvious holes in Phits "examples" but you did a better job than I would've.

It's amazing that it took so long for someone to "teach" Chris Carter the "right way" to carry the phuquing football er . . .uh . . . not do coke. I'll even look past the fact that he was well under 30 when he "learned" that lil nugget. The rest are equally nonsensical.

So. It's gotta be asked again...

Can anyone provide an example (because according to Phits, it happens all the time) of an NFL player suddenly solving career long fundamental issues north of 30?

Here's the answer in advance.

No.

Your cant find an example. And here's why...

Guys with fundamental issues as striking and severe as Vick's, don't stay in the league long enough to see 30. Vick has skated by on freakish physical talent. He admits as much. After the can, he tried and made an honest effort to learn how to be a QB. But the proof with that is in the pudding as they say.
Phits
I know your hate for Vick makes you irrational, but I didn't realize it also made you into a liar.
QUOTE (D Rock @ May 22 2013, 12:07 PM) *
Can anyone provide an example (because according to Phits, it happens all the time) of an NFL player suddenly solving career long fundamental issues north of 30?


I never said it happens all of the time. In fact:
QUOTE
Like I suggested, it doesn't happen often but it certainly isn't uncommon.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ May 22 2013, 11:38 AM) *
I know your hate for Vick makes you irrational, but I didn't realize it also made you into a liar.

I don't have an irrational hate of Vick. In fact, in general I have supported him. I simply think it's naive to believe the guy is going to change at this point in his career.

He never developed the fundamentals to play the position. Every time things have gotten tough, he's reverted back to his old self. To think that will change when he's 33 is naive, at best.

I'm certainly not cheering against the guy. He's one of the most awesome athletes I've ever seen and is the only chance we have of winning a SB this year (assuming he pulls a 2010) but I'm being realistic.
Eyrie
QUOTE (Phits @ May 22 2013, 03:57 PM) *
Not fumbling the ball is a an ability that can be learned. Tiki Barber became a pro-bowl caliber player once he learned to control his fumbles....Adrian Peterson used to be the Fumble King

A RB gets the chance to secure the ball behind the line of scrimmage and well in advance of any contact, so securing the ball properly is something that they can concentrate on at the hand off. They will also have to practice doing so with every rep in practice.

A QB in the pocket is looking at his reads, so may not be aware of the defender and if he is then has little time to tuck the ball away, so instinct will take over. A scrambling QB does get an opportunity to secure the ball properly but is trying to do so in the middle of a busted play so there is no time to focus on ball protection, making it harder to change to a new style of holding the ball.

The odds are against Vick overcoming this particular issue.
iggleslover49
His old self is pulling the ball down and running. Using his legs. He hasn't reverted back to that. What people aren't understanding is the player Vick is now, he never was prior the Philadelphia. I don't understand why people try to make it seem like his style of play is engrained in him. Standing in the pocket isn't engrained in him. It was something Ried coached him to do. So why all of a sudden do people think he can't be coached
iggleslover49
QUOTE (Eyrie @ May 22 2013, 01:49 PM) *
A RB gets the chance to secure the ball behind the line of scrimmage and well in advance of any contact, so securing the ball properly is something that they can concentrate on at the hand off. They will also have to practice doing so with every rep in practice.

A QB in the pocket is looking at his reads, so may not be aware of the defender and if he is then has little time to tuck the ball away, so instinct will take over. A scrambling QB does get an opportunity to secure the ball properly but is trying to do so in the middle of a busted play so there is no time to focus on ball protection, making it harder to change to a new style of holding the ball.

The odds are against Vick overcoming this particular issue.
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ May 22 2013, 11:45 AM) *
The main difference in Randall's fumbling came from the fact that he went from running QB to passing QB. Additionally, he wasn't getting sacked 4 times a game, which dramatically decreased his fumbling.

Thanks for helping to make my point. It sounds like you're talking about Vick.
iggleslover49
QUOTE (Eyrie @ May 22 2013, 01:49 PM) *
A RB gets the chance to secure the ball behind the line of scrimmage and well in advance of any contact, so securing the ball properly is something that they can concentrate on at the hand off. They will also have to practice doing so with every rep in practice.

A QB in the pocket is looking at his reads, so may not be aware of the defender and if he is then has little time to tuck the ball away, so instinct will take over. A scrambling QB does get an opportunity to secure the ball properly but is trying to do so in the middle of a busted play so there is no time to focus on ball protection, making it harder to change to a new style of holding the ball.

The odds are against Vick overcoming this particular issue.

huh? It literally takes a second to tuck the ball. Even Qbs that don't scramble do it. In fact torward the end of last season Vick WAS tucking the ball.

Your reading into this waaayyy too hard and trying to take a psychological approach with it. Don't do that.
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ May 22 2013, 12:52 PM) *
He never developed the fundamentals to play the position. Every time things have gotten tough, he's reverted back to his old self. To think that will change when he's 33 is naive, at best.

This is where we agree to disagree. If this was another year with Andy, I would agree with you. He brought MV as far as he could. With a different system/approach/coach, one should be optimistic.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ May 22 2013, 01:09 PM) *
Thanks for helping to make my point. It sounds like you're talking about Vick.

How so? Vick took mad sacks last year. Additionally, he's still carrying the ball about 3x as many times per game as Randall was with the Vikings.

Randall only had 32 carries with the Vikings in 98 (15 games) and only 20 sacks.
Vick had 62 carries last year in 10 games.

During Randall's peak, he was carrying the ball 100+ a year and getting sacked another 50-70.

Vick still thinks run first when the pocket gets a bit sloppy.

Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ May 22 2013, 02:24 PM) *
How so? Vick took mad sacks last year. Additionally, he's still carrying the ball about 3x as many times per game as Randall was with the Vikings.

Randall only had 32 carries with the Vikings in 98 (15 games) and only 20 sacks.
Vick had 62 carries last year in 10 games.

During Randall's peak, he was carrying the ball 100+ a year and getting sacked another 50-70.

Vick still thinks run first when the pocket gets a bit sloppy.

Randall changed when he became a Viking. That old dog learned a new trick. Somebody got through to him and he became the QB we always wanted him to be.
samaroo
I sincerely hope that Vick reverts to what we saw in 2010, but in regards to his fumbling, ball control, or "learning new tricks" comparing him to other positions is ludicrous.

A running back only has to think about 2 things on any play: secure the ball; find a hole. If a QB is scrambling, that means the play is broken. So either during or after assessing the defense, making protection adjustments, re-reading the defense while dropping back, scanning his receivers, and watching the rush, he has to run for his life while STILL scanning both the defense and his receivers. In that situation, instinct takes over. For Vick, looking for a running lane, that's his strong suit. His athleticism can carry him pretty far. But waaaaaaaaaaay back in his mind is tucking the football.

He can totally learn to do that on a designed run, but on a busted play, that old dog ain't gonna learn that new trick.
JaxEagle
Either this story is a bunch of crap or it is a bad statement on Reid!
nephillymike
QUOTE (Phits @ May 22 2013, 01:45 PM) *
Randall changed when he became a Viking. That old dog learned a new trick. Somebody got through to him and he became the QB we always wanted him to be.



Exactly.

Randall went from the clueless, non studying non zone reading QB who got flustered during the playoffs when the Skins and Rams went zone coverage with an extra guy back to halt two seasons of Buddy Ball, to the polished QB who hit the playbook and blossomed into a great QB for one year and killed the zone coverages for Minn that were his demise here. I believe at the time his year under Billick and Minn was one of the two best seasons ever by a starting QB up to that point.

He is definitely proof that old QB's who don't read defenses properly nor study enough can change when the end is near. Maybe, just maybe, the MV experience will benefit us instead of the next team he goes to if we cut him.

Not saying he will, but it's worth a shot to see if he does.
chefalan23
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ May 22 2013, 12:52 PM) *
I'm certainly not cheering against the guy. He's one of the most awesome athletes I've ever seen and is the only chance we have of winning a SB this year (assuming he pulls a 2010) but I'm being realistic.

Quite possible he does. Like 2010, he's playing in a new system, and playing for his career. Quite possible that chip lets him play how he wants to play, because we have no stock in him for any years to come. If he gets destroyed, so what, we have 3 other good qb prospects on the bench. Take a look at the last 8 minutes of the eagles/giants game in dec 2010, he pretty much abandoned the gameplan and said fuck it, I'm gonna play street ball, and wiped his ass with the giants D. Same thing with the MNF rape of the redskins in 2010. If we ever see vintage Vick again, it'll be the first 10 weeks on the 2013 season.
JaxEagle
QUOTE (chefalan23 @ May 23 2013, 01:10 AM) *
Quite possible he does. Like 2010, he's playing in a new system, and playing for his career. Quite possible that chip lets him play how he wants to play, because we have no stock in him for any years to come. If he gets destroyed, so what, we have 3 other good qb prospects on the bench. Take a look at the last 8 minutes of the eagles/giants game in dec 2010, he pretty much abandoned the gameplan and said fuck it, I'm gonna play street ball, and wiped his ass with the giants D. Same thing with the MNF rape of the redskins in 2010. If we ever see vintage Vick again, it'll be the first 10 weeks on the 2013 season.

Decent points for sure!!
D Rock
In the real world, something that is "not uncommon" equates to something that happens "regularly" or "all the time."

@ Phits
Phits
QUOTE (D Rock @ May 23 2013, 11:34 AM) *
In the real world, something that is "not uncommon" equates to something that happens "regularly" or "all the time."

@ Phits

Next time you visit "the real world", let me know I'd like to buy you a drink.
D Rock
QUOTE (Phits @ May 23 2013, 05:02 PM) *
Next time you visit "the real world", let me know I'd like to buy you a drink.

cheers.gif devil03.gif laugh.gif
Eyrie
QUOTE (iggleslover49 @ May 22 2013, 07:12 PM) *
huh? It literally takes a second to tuck the ball. Even Qbs that don't scramble do it. In fact torward the end of last season Vick WAS tucking the ball.

Your reading into this waaayyy too hard and trying to take a psychological approach with it. Don't do that.

It's not "tucking the ball" that's the issue, it's how securely it's tucked. I refer you to the following explanation of why that is harder for a QB than a RB -

QUOTE (samaroo @ May 23 2013, 03:09 AM) *
I sincerely hope that Vick reverts to what we saw in 2010, but in regards to his fumbling, ball control, or "learning new tricks" comparing him to other positions is ludicrous.

A running back only has to think about 2 things on any play: secure the ball; find a hole. If a QB is scrambling, that means the play is broken. So either during or after assessing the defense, making protection adjustments, re-reading the defense while dropping back, scanning his receivers, and watching the rush, he has to run for his life while STILL scanning both the defense and his receivers. In that situation, instinct takes over. For Vick, looking for a running lane, that's his strong suit. His athleticism can carry him pretty far. But waaaaaaaaaaay back in his mind is tucking the football.

He can totally learn to do that on a designed run, but on a busted play, that old dog ain't gonna learn that new trick.

Phits
QUOTE (Eyrie @ May 23 2013, 01:52 PM) *
It's not "tucking the ball" that's the issue, it's how securely it's tucked. I refer you to the following explanation of why that is harder for a QB than a RB -

However, unlike a RB a QB has the luxury of sliding to avoid contact. The reason his fumbles are an issue (for me) is that when he tucks the ball to run, he doesn't secure it properly. In this instance he has nobody to hand off to be concerned with and is the lone player responsible for the ball. He should be securing the ball muuch better. I can forgive a blind side sack/strip...but not an unforced fumble or a fumble because of a love tap.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2017 Invision Power Services, Inc.