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JaxEagle
I think it is fairly accepted that the Phillies have owned Philly Sports for the last handful of years or so. Prior to that the Eagles owned it for a long time. Anyway, it is a sad statement of Philly Sports when I have the feeling that a 4-12 team has regained the top spot in Philly Sportsdom based merely on the excitement of watching what a new regime does.

I am more interested in the Eagles right now than any of our other teams. I think our Birds now have their perch back but they didn't earn it.

Anyone agree or disagree... anyone have a comment... anybody care??

Have a great week guys.

Peace.Jax (inside joke for old-timers - lol)
mcnabbulous
I hate Ruben Amaro Jr.
JaxEagle
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 21 2013, 11:44 AM) *
I hate Ruben Amaro Jr.

I guess that is somewhat related.

Regarding the Phils, I think we are headed toward the basement for a while and hopefully not for too long before we climb back up. I don't think there is anyone on our roster that is untouchable as far as trades this season. I hope we can keep J-Roll for his whole career though. Just my personal thought.
HOUSEoPAIN
You may be right about this, it'll depend on how the Phillies do in June and July before preseason starts. I think the Phillies will still end up being ok, maybe squeak into a wild card, but obviously they've gone cold right now. They also aren't drawing all that well anymore either, after a 3 year-long streak of sellouts that ended late last year (I was actually at the last sellout on August 5th, fun fact). The fans showing up will tell you what they think of the franchise's direction. Even if the Phillies end up making the postseason, we are inching ever closer to the day when we'll have to completely blow this thing up - our entire infield, the core group of guys that made the team, is all in their mid-30s, as are two of our best pitchers, our bullpen sucks, and our farm system was bled dry in getting the big name FAs to come here. We're not far from really sucking for a few years; good news is the Phillies can spend their way out of the upcoming jam.

The Flyers have competed with the Phillies for a few years, as they have been legit contenders too, and it doesn't hurt that hockey season begins when baseball ends, and the hockey playoffs wrap up when baseball is only a little ways into the season. The Flyers this year have been such a major let down, and it looks like the door has been shut on them contending for awhile.

The Sixers have been by far the worst disappointment. From looking like contenders to absolutely sucking while the dipshit with no knees sits there and steals money. That franchise is done for years. Anyone who bought season tickets once they signed Bynum should get refunds.

So yeah, if the Phillies continue to suck then a 4-12 team will have, not by any means deserved, the top perch once again in the city. Wow. At least we're not Cleveland.

Zero
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 21 2013, 10:44 AM) *
I hate Ruben Amaro Jr.

Seems Ruben used alot of talent currency to acquire the pitching he and many thought would carry the team to another championship with that core. Most fans I know were on board with what he was trying ... doesn't seem to have panned out.

Judging Amaro starts now, IMO. Can he switch gears and build another team to challenge for a WS?
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (Zero @ Apr 21 2013, 01:31 PM) *
Seems Ruben used alot of talent currency to acquire the pitching he and many thought would carry the team to another championship with that core. Most fans I know were on board with what he was trying ... doesn't seem to have panned out.

Judging Amaro starts now, IMO. Can he switch gears and build another team to challenge for a WS?


Judging Amaro started in 2009, when he inherited a dominant team with boatloads of cash and intrigue for free agents. He used a lot of talent and real currency in getting big names here, it hasn't worked out in terms of another WS title, and now we're looking at absolutely no succession plan for when the shelf life of this team ends. In 2 years the Royals and Pirates are going to win more games than us. He deserves blame for this, and I hope he's gone asap.
nephillymike
I don't think the Phils have what it takes to get the 5th playoff spot.

I just need them to stay close and give me something interesting to watch until the cut down day in August and I'll be OK. If they continue to tank, it will be a long brutal summer, the kind I was accustomed to for many years, but back then I was younger and played in leagues myself that kept me occupied until football season.

The state of Phila sports sucks.

Flyers get no heat whatsoever from this fan base. That fan base will follow Ed over the cliff.

Sixers had a bade break with Bynam, but their coach was a quitter and that hurt. Has anyone ever heard a more self centered press conference than the one Doug Collins gave this week. That guy has blinder on. don't let the door hit you on the way out, quitter. It's a shame he didn't coach like he played. He woul dneve rquit as a player.

Eagles have hope. Kelly brings hope and if he bring accountability of the players and a few good fraft picks and another free agent or two, we could be playoff bound this year. Playoffs after a 4-12 season happen almost 30% of the time.

Watching the Phils is infuriating. Seeing Mayberry not tag up from 2nd on a ball that almost went over the CF head was telling. Any kid who had any baseball knowledge who played for me knew you stay on the bag there, because, if he catches it, you tag and go to 3rd and he has no chance to throw you out. If he misses it, you can walk home from 2nd. I wonder if he knew or anyone told him he should know? And when Cliff was wild high, no visit from the pitching coach to tell him to either exaggerate his leg kick or break his hands earlier to give him more time to get on top of his pitch? Charlie and Dubee not PR Cliff Lee the other night for Kratz as soon as he got on first when it was 1st and 3rd and he was the winning run? They did it when he got to 2nd with two outs. There would be an argument among our coaches if one of us missed something so basic as that. You think about PR possibilities BEFORE Kratz comes to the plate!! It ain't difficult. It really isn't. There's a lack of attention to detail from that coaching staff. and Ryan Howard. does anyone explain to him that they only throw him a strike 38% of the time? And that if it spins, it's only a strike 20% of the time? Hey Ryan, if it spins, leave it alone! And unless it is a FB in your sweet spot, let it go, there's a 2/3 chance it's a ball. Take the walk and let other do the heavy lifting until the pitchers change their approach. Not fun to watch stupidity.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Apr 21 2013, 02:36 PM) *
does anyone explain to him that they only throw him a strike 38% of the time? And that if it spins, it's only a strike 20% of the time? Hey Ryan, if it spins, leave it alone! And unless it is a FB in your sweet spot, let it go, there's a 2/3 chance it's a ball. Take the walk and let other do the heavy lifting until the pitchers change their approach. Not fun to watch stupidity.


They're called Major Leaguers for a reason - the league simply knows how to pitch to him. Bust him inside with junk, if you have a 2 strike count low and away breaking ball. It works so often I consider him out when he has 2 strikes and less than 3 balls and usually make my bathroom/fridge trip. I remember the same thing with Andruw Jones, the league simply has had him all figured out for the better part of a decade. You could make the same argument with Rollins and Victorino in how they've been approached by pitchers. Howard has never learned the discipline necessary to adjust in response to the pitchers' adjustments. That's the difference between a Hall of Famer like Pujols, and a great player who had a few outstanding years and a bunch of 'ok' ones.

*edit - also, it doesn't help that he doesn't have a legit power hitter protecting him, as opposed to when he had Werth/Pence
JaxEagle
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Apr 21 2013, 12:04 PM) *
I think the Phillies will still end up being ok, maybe squeak into a wild card, but obviously they've gone cold right now.



I'd give you big odds on that bet. This team isn't as good as last year's team, which wasn't good enough for the playoffs. We are closer to last in the division that the Wild Card.
JaxEagle
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Apr 21 2013, 01:53 PM) *
Judging Amaro started in 2009, when he inherited a dominant team with boatloads of cash and intrigue for free agents. He used a lot of talent and real currency in getting big names here, it hasn't worked out in terms of another WS title, and now we're looking at absolutely no succession plan for when the shelf life of this team ends. In 2 years the Royals and Pirates are going to win more games than us. He deserves blame for this, and I hope he's gone asap.

Most everyone was on board with the talent currency that Amaro used. It's not "when" the shelf life of this team ends. It has already ended. As much as I love the core group that brought so much pride back to the Phillies, I'm ready to trade anyone. As I said in the original post, I'd love to hold onto Rollins but nobody is more important than the team if it were in the team's best interest.
JaxEagle
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Apr 21 2013, 02:36 PM) *
I just need them to stay close and give me something interesting to watch until the cut down day in August and I'll be OK. If they continue to tank, it will be a long brutal summer, the kind I was accustomed to for many years, but back then I was younger and played in leagues myself that kept me occupied until football season.

The state of Phila sports sucks.

Flyers get no heat whatsoever from this fan base. That fan base will follow Ed over the cliff.



Mikey, I don't think they will stay close into August. You better start making other plans.

I agree that state of sports isn't good.

The Flyers do seem to have gotten a pass. They underachieved as much as the Eagles or pretty close to it. There may be something in the water at the WF Center because neither of the teams that play there seemed to have much heart.
Reality Fan
This Phillies talk is hysterical.....notoriously slow starters and they do it this year and suddenly they are done in April? Has anyone watched this team over the last 7 years? Other than the year they won 100+ games they are always at or around .500......had Roy pitched a little better they would be in good shape. They are playing with a minor league catcher and rightfielder. Young and Ruiz will bring some additional firepower to the lineup and you have to believe that Hamels will get right. I am not saying that they will win 100 games but they will be in this thing at the end....the other teams are just not that good when you get past the hype.

As far as Amaro goes he has made some great trades and kept key players that took big dollars.....I want to know what money moves he made that were lauded at the time that he was so bad for? Halladay? Lee? Howard? Utley? Hamels?...That is over 100 million right there, which one should he have passed on? Rollins? When you spend that much money on so few players you have to take risks elsewhere. Polanco was a great hitter that had a body that failed him. Sports is as much about luck as it is about talent....good players who get hurt are not going to be good any where.

mcnabbulous
My problems with RAJ starts with the contract he gave to Howard and ends with his complete disregard for advanced statistics (in addition to scouting.)
He has set the franchise back a decade in a matter of three years.

When you give guys in their mid 30's multi year contracts, you should expect their bodies to fail. That's not luck, it's stupidity.
nephillymike
I don't have much of a complaint against Amaro. The moves needed to be made with the chance to win another WS. What I do fault the org for is the lack of development of the minor leaguers. Counting those we traded away, we really haven't developed many good players at all. Whether they are playing for our team, or are ones we traded away elsewhere, there should be another five AS or solid starters that hit the majors every five years. I also fault them for not having Ruff ready in the OF defensively. LF isn't rocket science. I've seen plenty of 1b made into serviceable LF's. That's a lack of coaching and foresight IMO.

And you think Ruff was bad in LF? Wait till you get a look at Delmon Young..................... He's turning singles into triples down on the farm as we speak.
JaxEagle
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Apr 22 2013, 08:51 PM) *
This Phillies talk is hysterical.....notoriously slow starters and they do it this year and suddenly they are done in April? Has anyone watched this team over the last 7 years? Other than the year they won 100+ games they are always at or around .500......had Roy pitched a little better they would be in good shape. They are playing with a minor league catcher and rightfielder. Young and Ruiz will bring some additional firepower to the lineup and you have to believe that Hamels will get right. I am not saying that they will win 100 games but they will be in this thing at the end....the other teams are just not that good when you get past the hype.

As far as Amaro goes he has made some great trades and kept key players that took big dollars.....I want to know what money moves he made that were lauded at the time that he was so bad for? Halladay? Lee? Howard? Utley? Hamels?...That is over 100 million right there, which one should he have passed on? Rollins? When you spend that much money on so few players you have to take risks elsewhere. Polanco was a great hitter that had a body that failed him. Sports is as much about luck as it is about talent....good players who get hurt are not going to be good any where.



I'm not judging on records or standings. I am judging with my eyes. I have watched on TV and in person. We aren't good enough anymore. Hamels should be ok but we can't hit so that doesn't matter that much. Delmon Young? Can't put much stock in him. Halladay is also a major question mark at this point. He has to be Greg Maddux like now. That's asking a lot but if anyone can make the transition at this point in his career then Roy can.

Regarding Amaro, I am not saying that any of those deals were deals that weren't largely supported. I am one that isn't looking back on them now. It's just a question of how to retool now.
JaxEagle
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Apr 22 2013, 10:59 PM) *
And you think Ruff was bad in LF? Wait till you get a look at Delmon Young..................... He's turning singles into triples down on the farm as we speak.

Exactly.

And with Brown in left? LOL. Revere will need to cover more ground than Garry Maddox.

Wasn't that just about the best saying ever? 3/4 of the earth is covered by water. The rest is covered by Garry Maddox.
nephillymike
Good win tonight though!!

Strong effort by the kid. 2 runs in 5-1/3. Respectable.

2-1/2 behind the last WC.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Apr 22 2013, 09:59 PM) *
I don't have much of a complaint against Amaro. The moves needed to be made with the chance to win another WS. What I do fault the org for is the lack of development of the minor leaguers. Counting those we traded away, we really haven't developed many good players at all. Whether they are playing for our team, or are ones we traded away elsewhere, there should be another five AS or solid starters that hit the majors every five years. I also fault them for not having Ruff ready in the OF defensively. LF isn't rocket science. I've seen plenty of 1b made into serviceable LF's. That's a lack of coaching and foresight IMO.

And you think Ruff was bad in LF? Wait till you get a look at Delmon Young..................... He's turning singles into triples down on the farm as we speak.


Now that is just silly.....while Young will never win a gold glove he is certainly not horrendous....he will be as good as his ankle lets him be.......he has one error and that is your assessment?

Amaro was in a bad spot with the cintracts you rightly say he had to give out. He thought he could fill in with big trades which cost him players. How quickly some here forget what those trades brought us like Lee and Halladay. Ruf has just started playing left and it is as if he played it forever and suddenly regressed. He will be the left fielder eventually and Young will be the right fielder and this lineup will have real power. Whether that will be enough remains to be seen but having Young and Ruiz in the lineup will be a pretty sizable power shift.

And if LF was so easy for a career infielder to play then why couldn't Howard make the adjustment? Was that bad coaching also? Some guys just don't take to it well. I can't say Ruff won't be decent yet...it is way too early right now.
Zero
I think the point is that the Phils have Howard under contract for the next century and a good hitting FB in AAA. Why not school him on playing another position before you want to bring him up to the bigs? Would that diminish his ability to play FB if needed?
mcnabbulous
I forgot to even mention the Pence trade. Amaro is trash.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 23 2013, 08:09 AM) *
I forgot to even mention the Pence trade. Amaro is trash.


He's just following the form of his mentor, Ed Wade. It's amazing how many unbelievably incompetent trades Wade made (mostly to us) as GM of the Astros, and you know Amaro is constantly checking in with him now for further advice. Give a GM a large checkbook and he can bring in some stars as Amaro has, but he's not even in the same universe as Pat Gillick.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Apr 23 2013, 08:40 AM) *
He's just following the form of his mentor, Ed Wade. It's amazing how many unbelievably incompetent trades Wade made (mostly to us) as GM of the Astros, and you know Amaro is constantly checking in with him now for further advice. Give a GM a large checkbook and he can bring in some stars as Amaro has, but he's not even in the same universe as Pat Gillick.

We had the best record in baseball and Amaro traded away 3 of our top prospects to marginally increase the quality of our team with an above average corner outfielder. It was a disaster waiting to happen.

But at least we have Howard locked up for years to come. His future looks bright...
nephillymike
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Apr 22 2013, 11:31 PM) *
Now that is just silly.....while Young will never win a gold glove he is certainly not horrendous....he will be as good as his ankle lets him be.......he has one error and that is your assessment?

Amaro was in a bad spot with the cintracts you rightly say he had to give out. He thought he could fill in with big trades which cost him players. How quickly some here forget what those trades brought us like Lee and Halladay. Ruf has just started playing left and it is as if he played it forever and suddenly regressed. He will be the left fielder eventually and Young will be the right fielder and this lineup will have real power. Whether that will be enough remains to be seen but having Young and Ruiz in the lineup will be a pretty sizable power shift.

And if LF was so easy for a career infielder to play then why couldn't Howard make the adjustment? Was that bad coaching also? Some guys just don't take to it well. I can't say Ruff won't be decent yet...it is way too early right now.



You're right, the 1B to LF conversion isn't for everyone. Only those who have the ability to throw the #$%^ ball 90 feet to get a guy at 2nd after he's been picked off. Howard can't throw. It's amazing really. There isn't a starting 1B who played 8th grade CYO for me in the 4 years I coached who couldn't make that throw. For some reason, the skill set escapes our 1B and the guys who supposedly coach that position. I hold the coaches more responsible for that. Howard's defense has improved over the years (throwing excluded). However on Chase's throwing error th eother day, he could have saved Utley's error by not stretching too early. Again, coaching. You square up to the fielder and you don't stretch until the ball is on it's way. That way, in case you have to switch feet on the bag, you can do that with relative ease. On that play if he does that, he would have kept his left foot on the bag and stretched up the foul line toward the OF for a pretty routine play. It wasn't his error, it was Utley's, but I just scratch my head at the lack of fundamentals. In his defense, not all of the CYO 1B can do this switch of feet. Only one of the 8th graders could and he played the position for two years and he was an all-star!
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Apr 23 2013, 01:02 PM) *
Only one of the 8th graders could and he played the position for two years and he was an all-star!


Yeah, but can this kid hit the ball 500 feet? I know Howard's best offensive days are far behind, but where else are you gonna stick him? He was meant to be a first baseman for us since day one. In the American League he may have ended up being the best-DH ever, but we got him instead. Therefore, 1st - nowhere else you could ever stick him.
nephillymike
I put him at First and I get my coaches to teach him how to play the position the right way and to throw the right way.

I get my coaches to teach Ruff how to play LF.

It isn't rocket science,

It really isn't.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Apr 23 2013, 01:50 PM) *
I put him at First and I get my coaches to teach him how to play the position the right way and to throw the right way.

I get my coaches to teach Ruff how to play LF.

It isn't rocket science,

It really isn't.


It seems so simple but now lets get back to the real world...do you honestly believe that they have not and are not actively trying to coach him to play LF? Do you honestly believe they are not doing everything possible? He gets coached in the minors, he went to play in Venezuela to get more reps and coaching there. Who do you think they have teaching him down there? CYO coaches? I get the frustration but to think that they are not making every effort to get the guy right out there seems silly.


HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Apr 23 2013, 06:08 PM) *
It seems so simple but now lets get back to the real world...do you honestly believe that they have not and are not actively trying to coach him to play LF? Do you honestly believe they are not doing everything possible? He gets coached in the minors, he went to play in Venezuela to get more reps and coaching there. Who do you think they have teaching him down there? CYO coaches? I get the frustration but to think that they are not making every effort to get the guy right out there seems silly.


Hey how about that, something we agree on cheers.gif

Guys like Ruf and (earlier) Howard are prospects because they can hit the ball. There are a million guys who can play better LF and 1B, but these are guys who can put up big offensive numbers. Coaches are trying to get them to play better, but there's only so much you can do, you're giving up defense in exchange for what they can bring offensively.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 23 2013, 09:41 AM) *
We had the best record in baseball and Amaro traded away 3 of our top prospects to marginally increase the quality of our team with an above average corner outfielder. It was a disaster waiting to happen.

But at least we have Howard locked up for years to come. His future looks bright...


How was it a "disaster waiting to happen"? Has any of those prospects pitched or played in the majors? The 2 pitchers have done well but Singleton is still in AA and the pitchers are in AAA. Getting Pence was done to give them some push in the outfield and he was an All Star. Hardly a bad trade. I know he should have known that Utley and Howard would suffer major injury...who didn't? Or maybe he should have spent 200 million. I understand your frustration but he has made some ballsy moves to bring in top talent and when each trade he made happened he was lauded. The problem with these moves are that these players are not taking a cut if they get hurt....that becomes dead money.......at least this proves my point every time that idiotic argument about what one would give up for 1 championship season pops up......this debate will be very interesting in 3 months.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Apr 23 2013, 05:18 PM) *
How was it a "disaster waiting to happen"? Has any of those prospects pitched or played in the majors?

Neither has Jesse Biddle. Is it time we ship him out for an above average corner outfielder? You don't send away 3 of your top propects for something less than a star. See: Justin Upton.

QUOTE
The 2 pitchers have done well but Singleton is still in AA and the pitchers are in AAA. Getting Pence was done to give them some push in the outfield and he was an All Star. Hardly a bad trade.

It was an awful trade. Like I said, we had the best record in baseball. He marginally increased our chances of winning the WS in 2010 while completely jeopardizing the health of our organization.

QUOTE
I know he should have known that Utley and Howard would suffer major injury...who didn't? Or maybe he should have spent 200 million.

You don't have to spend $200M if you don't give Howard one of the worst contracts in baseball history despite having 2 years left on his other contract. How you can defend that move is beyond me.

QUOTE
I understand your frustration but he has made some ballsy moves to bring in top talent and when each trade he made happened he was lauded. The problem with these moves are that these players are not taking a cut if they get hurt....that becomes dead money.......at least this proves my point every time that idiotic argument about what one would give up for 1 championship season pops up......this debate will be very interesting in 3 months.

I never make that "idiotic argument" because I understand the virtue that playoffs tend to be a crapshoot and it's not worth selling out the franchise for one season. Which is what Amaro has done. Which is why I hate Amaro.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Apr 23 2013, 05:08 PM) *
It seems so simple but now lets get back to the real world...do you honestly believe that they have not and are not actively trying to coach him to play LF? Do you honestly believe they are not doing everything possible? He gets coached in the minors, he went to play in Venezuela to get more reps and coaching there. Who do you think they have teaching him down there? CYO coaches? I get the frustration but to think that they are not making every effort to get the guy right out there seems silly.



He didn't play as much OF as they say they wish he had in Winter ball.

http://philly.sbnation.com/philadelphia-ph...ies-winter-ball

And he left before the winter ball season was over to rest up. (I'll look up the link if needed)

And from a little birdie with connections in Clearwater operations, he didn't play the OF much during battiing practice in spring training nor was he seen taking fly balls off the jugs machine. BP and jugs machine practice will cure many a rough edge off a "Ruff" OF prospect. You can throw in some fungo reps if you'd like and he had some of those. You know how the pitchers are always shagging flies in the OF in BP? Well, that is where OF in training should be, there and taking flies off the jugs. I've seen it done. It works.

So, no, I don't think they have done everything possible. Not even close. If a guy is not terribly slow, he can be made to play the OF, if he was a position player some where else. Some pitchers can't do it, but 90% of the rest of MLB ball players can. BTW, Galvis looked passable for never playing there.

That being said, I have no problems with the trades they made. I do wish there were more prospects in the system, especailly pitchers.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Apr 24 2013, 01:10 PM) *
So, no, I don't think they have done everything possible. Not even close. If a guy is not terribly slow, he can be made to play the OF, if he was a position player some where else. Some pitchers can't do it, but 90% of the rest of MLB ball players can. BTW, Galvis looked passable for never playing there.


I could give a fuck if he makes 2 errors a game. Just put him behind Howard in the lineup so we can stop getting shut out, and maybe get Howard something to hit.
nephillymike
Utley Homers off a lefty
Howard Homers off a lefty
Halladay pitches a one hitter thru six.
Brown makes a phenominal catch.
Turn the lead over to our bullpen after six

and we STILL manage to lose the damn game!!!

Still haven't perfected the art of when to run on contact.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Apr 24 2013, 10:58 PM) *
Utley Homers off a lefty
Howard Homers off a lefty
Halladay pitches a one hitter thru six.
Brown makes a phenominal catch.
Turn the lead over to our bullpen after six

and we STILL manage to lose the damn game!!!

Still haven't perfected the art of when to run on contact.


Look at the box score - what do you notice about our lineup?

Everyone was productive last night.....except our 2 right-handed hitters, putting up 0-4 and 0-3 in our #3 and #5 spots. BRING UP RUF!

We could always use more bullpen help, sometimes Bastardo and Adams are gonna suck, as they did last night. But we simply can't maintain consistent winning when we're putting up 3 runs a game. Our starting pitching has been outstanding lately.
mcnabbulous
You mean having Michael Young in the 3-hole didn't pan out?

HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 25 2013, 09:14 AM) *
You mean having Michael Young in the 3-hole didn't pan out?



laugh.gif
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 25 2013, 09:14 AM) *
You mean having Michael Young in the 3-hole didn't pan out?



laugh.gif
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