Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Trade Down Question
Eagles Forum > Philadelphia Eagles Message Board > Philadelphia Eagles or Football Related Discussion
Pages: 1, 2
nephillymike
We have the 4th pick.

You are the GM and you're on the clock at #4 and let's assume that three of Joeckel, Floyd, Fisher and Jordan are already chosen in the first three. One of those four is left, as is Warmack, Milliner, Lutulelei and G. Smith.

Tennesee calls and wants to move up to #4 and they offer their 2nd round pick (8th in Round 2, 40th overall) to do so. (BTW, the point values match exactly). Instead of #4 and #35, that would give us #11, #35 and #40.

Would you??

Tick tock you're on the clock............................................................................
Eyrie
I'd be very tempted if Joekel and Fisher are both gone.

Add Johnston to the list of players yet to be taken and there is an excellent chance of getting one of those guys at #11. That said, I'd rather it is Buffalo on the other end of the phone offering their first and second for #4. Two early seconds will enable us to strengthen the defence (eg package one of them with our fourth and move up into the late first for Cyprien, then use the other on a CB or NT).

However it depends on who we are targeting at #4 and how key that player is seen by Kelly and Roseman. I suspect mcnabbulous wouldn't make your trade because he sees Smith as the future of the franchise.
Zero
Yes! Little hesitation. The team is not in a situation of being a player or two away. They are rebuilding the Eagles and adding an additional high pick in exchange for moving down seven spots in a draft that supposedly shows little difference in the player grades in that range ... YES!
chuckp
Could we get a little more ya think? Maybe a 3 in there to
mcnabbulous
Lots of speculation that the Dolphins are a team that wants to move up and has lots of ammo. Two twos and two threes.
nephillymike
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 6 2013, 10:44 AM) *
Lots of speculation that the Dolphins are a team that wants to move up and has lots of ammo. Two twos and two threes.



Who do they want? I would think not Smith since they have Tannehill.

Are they at 12? If so, it would probably cost them a 5th round plus their 2nd round pick, which I think is a few spots lower than the titans pick.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Apr 6 2013, 10:59 AM) *
Who do they want? I would think not Smith since they have Tannehill.

Are they at 12? If so, it would probably cost them a 5th round plus their 2nd round pick, which I think is a few spots lower than the titans pick.


One of the tackles since they lost Long?
nephillymike
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 6 2013, 11:00 AM) *
One of the tackles since they lost Long?


That makes sense.

Check this out. It has team names next to the picks so you can more easily figure out trades:

http://www.drafttek.com/NFL-Trade-Value-Chart.asp

Looks like our #4 , + our 4th round pick(#101) for their #12, their 2nd round pick (#42) and their 3rd round (#77), should approximate equal value with maybe a 6th round kicker from MIA.
Zero
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 6 2013, 11:00 AM) *
One of the tackles since they lost Long?

That's what Ray the Diddy was talking about today. He said something about #4 for #12, the Dolphin's second, and maybe a third next year.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Zero @ Apr 6 2013, 04:53 PM) *
That's what Ray the Diddy was talking about today. He said something about #4 for #12, the Dolphin's second, and maybe a third next year.



The heck with next year!!

I need my pick this year.

Tomorrow never knows.

Now if they want to make it next years 2nd round pick, I will listen if they speak softly...........................
Dreagon
Trading down is going to be an interesting proposition this year. It's a draft that doesn't have superstars but is relatively deep at a few positions. The problem is going to be finding teams willing to trade up in an environment like that. You're pretty much limited to teams trying to fill a need with a sure fire hit.

The dolphins wanting a tackle, especially if Joeckel falls (since he and tannehill know each other from college) is about the only scenario I can picture happening off the top of my head.
canadianeagle
In a heartbeat. The eagles would still have a good chance at getting either Warmack, vaccaro, and perhaps even star.
GQSmooth
Maybe it's just me, but I would think the team has to get more than fair value in order to trade down.
HobbEs
If you could trade down, grab the 'fins 2nd rounder and maybe draft Warmack at #12...that would be a coup!
nephillymike
QUOTE (HobbEs @ Apr 10 2013, 08:21 AM) *
If you could trade down, grab the 'fins 2nd rounder and maybe draft Warmack at #12...that would be a coup!



I think to do that and "hope" for Warmack to be there is too risky for me. I woul dneed to have three guys I would be perfectly happy with and know with a good degree of certainty that one of the three would be there. Otherwise, I don't do it.
mcnabbulous
Here is my unlikely to happen scenario:

We trade back, not quite to 12, but somewhere in the late single digits. Grab Austin. Then trade back up into the late first to grab Manuel.
GQSmooth
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Apr 10 2013, 01:12 PM) *
I think to do that and "hope" for Warmack to be there is too risky for me. I woul dneed to have three guys I would be perfectly happy with and know with a good degree of certainty that one of the three would be there. Otherwise, I don't do it.

I think you guys are not recognizing that Warmack doesn't fit what Chip Kelly does. "Fast" is a philosophy at Nova Care now, nothing about Warmack at the combine brings that image. Check this link as Cooper would be a better fit. NFP guard assessment I'm of the opinion Cooper is a better fit. Furthermore give the two oldest guys on the line is Peters and Herremans look for the team to draft an OT shift Herremans inside and plan for that player to take over for Peters in the future. I see no way this team drafts someone to play guard that is not fast and that cannot play both the guard and center spot.
nephillymike
QUOTE (GQSmooth @ Apr 11 2013, 10:33 AM) *
I think you guys are not recognizing that Warmack doesn't fit what Chip Kelly does. "Fast" is a philosophy at Nova Care now, nothing about Warmack at the combine brings that image. Check this link as Cooper would be a better fit. NFP guard assessment I'm of the opinion Cooper is a better fit. Furthermore give the two oldest guys on the line is Peters and Herremans look for the team to draft an OT shift Herremans inside and plan for that player to take over for Peters in the future. I see no way this team drafts someone to play guard that is not fast and that cannot play both the guard and center spot.



good point. Cooper may be their highest rated guard. And ones that can play OC offer a valuable skill and may ultimately save a roster spot to be used elsewhere.

The closer it gets, the more I'm hoping that Fisher is there for us. An important note in another post that had scouting analysis, while Joeckel and Fisher are really good and near the top of this class of OT, neither is rated as high as the Pace, Ogden, Thomas and Staley's of years' past.
HOUSEoPAIN
2+ weeks of constant draft speculation left. Kill me now wacko.gif
Dreagon
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Apr 11 2013, 12:38 PM) *
2+ weeks of constant draft speculation left. Kill me now wacko.gif


Haha! Tell me about it! laugh.gif
HobbEs
QUOTE
I think you guys are not recognizing that Warmack doesn't fit what Chip Kelly does.


If you're referring to what he did at Oregon then it may be true...but no one has a clue as to what he's going to do on this level. Besides, Stoutland was Warmack's position coach at Alabama. I'm sure he knows better than most if he can/cannot fit in here.
HobbEs
QUOTE
2+ weeks of constant draft speculation left. Kill me now

Haha! Tell me about it!


On the bright side it's only two more weeks of mcnabbulous banging he Geno Smith drum. Unless of course we actually draft him... blah.gif
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (HobbEs @ Apr 11 2013, 02:44 PM) *
On the bright side it's only two more weeks of mcnabbulous banging he Geno Smith drum. Unless of course we actually draft him... blah.gif


Actually, it will be kind of funny to imagine him perking up after the first 2 picks, jumping up and down on his couch - only ONE MORE until we draft Smith! Then the Raiders grab him.....
nephillymike
If not the draft, what else do we have??

A Halliday ERA above 13?
A Hamels ERA above 10?
Flyers, Done
Sixers, Done

NCAA's over.

I welcome all and any draft banter around here. We need something.

After taxes are over (Monday 4/15), hopefully I'll have a chance to get back into the draft a little bit.

Two weeks from tonight!!
HobbEs
We could be talking about the search for a new Sixers coach soon.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (HobbEs @ Apr 11 2013, 01:44 PM) *
On the bright side it's only two more weeks of mcnabbulous banging he Geno Smith drum. Unless of course we actually draft him... blah.gif

I only hope it happens at this point so everyone that has bashed him has to reconcile supporting him.

I will be bummed if we draft OL though. That does absolutely nothing for me.
HobbEs
QUOTE
I will be bummed if we draft OL though. That does absolutely nothing for me.


This is supposed to be a good draft for linemen and we happen to need them. I'll admit it's not an exciting pick but it all starts up front.
Zero
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 11 2013, 02:45 PM) *
I will be bummed if we draft OL though. That does absolutely nothing for me.


But I wonder if the QB will be bummed ... it may do something for him.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (HobbEs @ Apr 11 2013, 02:50 PM) *
I'll admit it's not an exciting pick but it all starts up front.

I subscribe less to this theory than most. I think you need good, capable starters along the OL. The difference between good and great is very little for the most part.

Our problem is that the backups we've had have been incapable of starting. Hell, some of our starters have been incapable of starting. But finding capable linemen is much easier than some other positions.
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 11 2013, 05:27 PM) *
I subscribe less to this theory than most. I think you need good, capable starters along the OL. The difference between good and great is very little for the most part.

Our problem is that the backups we've had have been incapable of starting. Hell, some of our starters have been incapable of starting. But finding capable linemen is much easier than some other positions.

Eli Manning is good, not great.
Joe Flacco is good, not great.
Bent Rottenburger is good, not great.

They represent 4 of the last 6 SB champions.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Apr 11 2013, 04:43 PM) *
Eli Manning is good, not great.
Joe Flacco is good, not great.
Bent Rottenburger is good, not great.

They represent 4 of the last 6 SB champions.

Roethlisberger was great at the time of his SB's. Flacco is good, but we have no idea how good is he going to become. He was pretty great in the playoffs.

Eli was pretty darn good in the playoffs too, and what he has proven is that he is clutch.

Would you like me to reiterate how those teams all acquired their starting left tackles again?
JaxEagle
I'd do that deal for sure!
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 11 2013, 06:39 PM) *
Roethlisberger was great at the time of his SB's. Flacco is good, but we have no idea how good is he going to become. He was pretty great in the playoffs.

Eli was pretty darn good in the playoffs too, and what he has proven is that he is clutch.

Would you like me to reiterate how those teams all acquired their starting left tackles again?

Having very good or great performances for a stretch at a time doesn't make you "great". So I will reiterate that they are good, not great.

How they got their LT is irrelevant, how they perform is very relevant. Ask Belichick if he would rather have the first QB drafted (Pennington) or any of the 5 that were drafted ahead of Brady.

My point is that we need to draft players that are going to excel and not just perform in our system. Whether that's a QB, LT, LB, S or CB is really irrelevant. You can't deny the worth of a blue chip player.
Zero
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 11 2013, 05:39 PM) *
Would you like me to reiterate how those teams all acquired their starting left tackles again?

It isn't where you acquire a player that matters, it's the quality of the player. I think it's pretty obvious that the odds favor getting a blue chip player earlier in the selection process than later, regardless of position.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Apr 11 2013, 06:19 PM) *
Having very good or great performances for a stretch at a time doesn't make you "great". So I will reiterate that they are good, not great.

How they got their LT is irrelevant, how they perform is very relevant. Ask Belichick if he would rather have the first QB drafted (Pennington) or any of the 5 that were drafted ahead of Brady.

My point is that we need to draft players that are going to excel and not just perform in our system. Whether that's a QB, LT, LB, S or CB is really irrelevant. You can't deny the worth of a blue chip player.


The point is, we have no idea what kind of QB Flacco is yet. He's just coming into his own. His performance in the playoffs this year could be a stepping stone to a great career. When Tom Brady won his first title, people thought it was a fluke.
Now we realize we were just watching an all-time great.

Roethlisberger is (or was: injuries may have limited that) a great QB. I don't know who would argue against that.

And Eli is more than good. I'd agree that he may not be great, but calling him very good is more than fair.

The left tackles in question are David Diehl, Jermon Bushrod, an over the hill Bryant McKinnie who was acquired as a free agent because he was dropped by his old team, and Max Starks. Talk about far from greatness.

Edit: and I love how everyone wants to use Tom Brady as a case study for being able to find great QBs late in the draft. It was 13 fucking years ago. Get over it.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Zero @ Apr 11 2013, 07:11 PM) *
It isn't where you acquire a player that matters, it's the quality of the player. I think it's pretty obvious that the odds favor getting a blue chip player earlier in the selection process than later, regardless of position.


I agree, but you have a much better chance to get a good player on the offensive line late in the draft than almost any other position.

I vaguely recall Ross Tucker, a former OL, saying he wouldn't spend big money on OL for that very reason. Not enough disparity between the best and the subsequent tiers. I'll try to track down the quote.

Edit: and per nobody's request. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writ....html?mobile=no
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 11 2013, 09:41 PM) *
I agree, but you have a much better chance to get a good player on the offensive line late in the draft than almost any other position.

I vaguely recall Ross Tucker, a former OL, saying he wouldn't spend big money on OL for that very reason. Not enough disparity between the best and the subsequent tiers. I'll try to track down the quote.

Edit: and per nobody's request. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writ....html?mobile=no

Ross Tucker? Come on now, really? How would he know the difference between the best and subsequent tiers? You're using a reference from an NFL washout. We can't even call him a has been, because he never was.

Real Football minds disagree with his comments. I'll side with them.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Apr 12 2013, 12:48 AM) *
Ross Tucker? Come on now, really? How would he know the difference between the best and subsequent tiers? You're using a reference from an NFL washout. We can't even call him a has been, because he never was.

Real Football minds disagree with his comments. I'll side with them.


Please, the guy is a Princeton grad, former offensive linemen, and one of the more respected writers working today. He's just as, if not more, qualified to speak to the subject as the "real football minds." 50% of which got their jobs due to nepotism.

You don't need to have been a superstar to know the game. In fact, most stars don't.

I don't suspect that practicing day in and day out with the best and worst players on an NFL roster could shed any light on the subject.
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 12 2013, 05:50 AM) *
Please, the guy is a Princeton grad, former offensive linemen, and one of the more respected writers working today. He's just as, if not more, qualified to speak to the subject as the "real football minds." 50% of which got their jobs due to nepotism.

Respected by whom? Respected because he is a Princeton grad?

QUOTE
You don't need to have been a superstar to know the game. In fact, most stars don't.

If they don't know the game, how did they become stars?

QUOTE
I don't suspect that practicing day in and day out with the best and worst players on an NFL roster could shed any light on the subject.

Perhaps if he practiced more he would be of the caliber of some of the players he is downplaying. The article makes it seem like he is bitter that he was never good enough to receive that kind of pay day or

The guys in the trenches have been the unsung heroes of the game for a long time. To suggest that the difference between a mediocre and elite line man is utter nonsense. I am quite certain that a QB doesn't feel that way. The fact that you only have a hack like Tucker to validate your argument leads me to believe that you're grasping at straws.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Apr 12 2013, 08:23 AM) *
Respected by whom? Respected because he is a Princeton grad?

By people that read and know about football. I've ascertained over the years that that isn't you. Going to Princeton certainly improves his credentials though.

QUOTE
If they don't know the game, how did they become stars?

Because they're freaks of nature. A lot of NFL guys don't like nor watch football. That's a fact. You think the best players are the best because they know the game better than anyone else? That may be true for a handful of the more cerebral positions, but most guys excel because they are athletic freaks.

QUOTE
Perhaps if he practiced more he would be of the caliber of some of the players he is downplaying. The article makes it seem like he is bitter that he was never good enough to receive that kind of pay day or

Now I'm convinced you never set foot on a playing field. The fact that he even made it to the NFL after playing in the Ivy League is incredibly unlikely. His intelligence and knowledge of the game are likely the only reasons it happened. There are only about 5 Ivy League players in the NFL right now and I don't think any of them are starters. Those dummies have notoriously bad work ethics. blink.gif

QUOTE
The guys in the trenches have been the unsung heroes of the game for a long time.

And John Riggins used to be the best player in football. What's your point? Things change.

QUOTE
To suggest that the difference between a mediocre and elite line man is utter nonsense.

This isn't a complete sentence, but I'm not saying there is no difference between mediocre and elite. I'm talking about the difference between a capable starter and elite. And the impact on the game is minimal. Thus they aren't worth spending premium picks on.

QUOTE
I am quite certain that a QB doesn't feel that way.The fact that you only have a hack like Tucker to validate your argument leads me to believe that you're grasping at straws.

Ahh, now Tucker is a hack. Got it. Nice argument. I don't need Tucker to validate anything. I'm simply pointing out that someone who is much smarter and more experienced than you agrees with my opinion on the subject.

But you're "quite certain." Impressive credentials.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 12 2013, 10:07 AM) *
Going to Princeton certainly improves his credentials though.


Yeah, one of the guys who teaches at Princeton and has a Nobel Prize thinks we can solve our debt problems by minting a platinum coin and calling it a $2 trillion coin. Brilliance on parade at the Ivy League schools nowadays.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Apr 12 2013, 10:54 AM) *
Yeah, one of the guys who teaches at Princeton and has a Nobel Prize thinks we can solve our debt problems by minting a platinum coin and calling it a $2 trillion coin. Brilliance on parade at the Ivy League schools nowadays.

Thanks for keeping it relevant.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 12 2013, 12:08 PM) *
Thanks for keeping it relevant.


laugh.gif

I just want this damn draft to be over with so we can move on to the next boring part of the offseason until August begins
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Apr 12 2013, 11:32 AM) *
laugh.gif

I just want this damn draft to be over with so we can move on to the next boring part of the offseason until August begins

Meh, the draft is one of the few things I enjoy about the season. It provides hope.
nephillymike
A few things.

I like ross Tucker.

In general, I do think he knows what he's talking about on many NFL subjects.
My gut tells me his conclusion is flawed in the article you reference.

His call for more quantitative sabremetrics analysis by the NFL is right on and since the year his article was written, the NFL has become more statistically involved.

I'll have Mikeynumbers look into it later on to see if I subscribe to his conclusion.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Apr 12 2013, 11:52 AM) *
A few things.

I like ross Tucker.

In general, I do think he knows what he's talking about on many NFL subjects.
My gut tells me his conclusion is flawed in the article you reference.

His call for more quantitative sabremetrics analysis by the NFL is right on and since the year his article was written, the NFL has become more statistically involved.

I'll have Mikeynumbers look into it later on to see if I subscribe to his conclusion.


Cool, I hope hoping it would inspire.
I'm personally not looking at it from a statistical perspective. More about what I see on the field. Barring a handful of exceptions, I simply don't think the impact is great enough from the good to the elite. I am curious about the statistical impact though.
Jason Peters to King Dunlap, sure. But Jason Peters to a guy like Bushrod is less dramatic.
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Apr 12 2013, 10:07 AM) *
By people that read and know about football. I've ascertained over the years that that isn't you. Going to Princeton certainly improves his credentials though.

Glad to see that you're impressed by his ability to have somebody pay for his education.

QUOTE
Because they're freaks of nature. A lot of NFL guys don't like nor watch football. That's a fact. You think the best players are the best because they know the game better than anyone else? That may be true for a handful of the more cerebral positions, but most guys excel because they are athletic freaks.

That's a flat out lie. Athleticism is only part of the equation. The best players are the best because they work damned hard at it and know the game. Whether they enjoy it or watch it in their down time has little to know bearing on whether they know the game or not.

mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Apr 12 2013, 02:57 PM) *
Glad to see that you're impressed by his ability to have somebody pay for his education.
You know that the Ivy League doesn't award athletic scholarships, right?
QUOTE
That's a flat out lie. Athleticism is only part of the equation. The best players are the best because they work damned hard at it and know the game. Whether they enjoy it or watch it in their down time has little to know bearing on whether they know the game or not.

Yes, but its nearly impossible to be a star without the physical gifts. Implying that the elite players work harder or know the game any better than the other guys is ridiculous. Athleticism is the must. Work ethic is a bonus.

I can reel off countless superstars who didn't work all that hard. "You talkin' bout practice!"

And since you clearly don't know what the hell you are taking about, here is a little bit of reading for you regarding Tucker:
http://www.towntopics.com/sep0104/sports1.html
Reality Fan
I guess we should reach out to Ryan Fitpatrick for his opinion........of course you could always reach out to Matt Birk....6 pro bowls is not bad........just saying..........and a lineman.....and he is an example of your point....6th round pick
nephillymike
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Apr 12 2013, 10:54 AM) *
Yeah, one of the guys who teaches at Princeton and has a Nobel Prize thinks we can solve our debt problems by minting a platinum coin and calling it a $2 trillion coin. Brilliance on parade at the Ivy League schools nowadays.



I like the political reference.

Since the debacle, I've been taking up knitting.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2017 Invision Power Services, Inc.