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Zero
I thought this was a good take on Kelly, what he's said about his QB and what it may mean for this coming season:
QUOTE
"... this [Kelly] is a brilliant coaching mind responsible for the most progressive offensive system since the days of Bill Walsh and his West Coast horizontal passing game. There aren't many similarities between the two coaches or how their particular systems are run but there is one constant. Both require a great decision-maker at the QB position."

"Kelly needs to identify who that person is and mold his offense around the skill set of his newest QB. Will it be Mike Vick and a read-option centric game plan? Could it be Nick Foles and more of a traditional spread system? Maybe it's an incoming prospect of the 2013 NFL Draft. At this point, it's guesswork."

QUOTE
It's believed that Vick never got accustomed to the pre-snap phase of calling out protection plans at the line of scrimmage - a requirement in Mudd's pass pro. This was Mudd's plan in Indianapolis where OC Jeff Saturday and QB Peyton Manning ran it to perfection. But Vick struggled with it and was hindered further by the injury to starting center Jason Kelce. That is a relationship - between QB and Center - that needs to operate with certainty for the pass protection to hold up. It didn't over these last two years in Philly because Vick was uncomfortable handling it and his relationship with the center position was in flux. The result: playing under constant duress, making poor decisions because of pressure and turning the ball over in crucial spots.

This is a good read, and as long as the author knows what he's talking about the QB job in Philadelphia truly seems to be an open competition and a mystery. The stuff about Vick makes some sense and helps explain what Kelly may have been seeing/thinking when he redid his deal.
Dreagon
I'm going to lean toward Foles. To me that's the one that makes sense. Vick is not the future, and ya'll need to see if Foles is before next year's draft comes around.
JaxEagle
QUOTE (Dreagon @ Mar 26 2013, 08:52 PM) *
I'm going to lean toward Foles. To me that's the one that makes sense. Vick is not the future, and ya'll need to see if Foles is before next year's draft comes around.

Agree. I'd be ok if we took a mid round pick on EJ Manual but I'm not really of the mind to use our top pick on Geno Smith.
iggleslover49
I've been thinking this way from the beginning. Which is why I've felt that Vick is still better. Nobody wants to hear about the offensive line and lack of chemistry. Everyone looks at the turnovers, and rightfully so. But his turnover number did go steadily down after week 4 and there's so much variables involved. The guy had garbage oline play. And if anything Foles had more chemistry with that oline because the majority of it was playing with him since training camp as BACKUPS.

Bottom line is the whole offense is to blame on that mess. And that STARTS with the coaching staff. Foles had some success, but the play calling was more balanced for him. He had help. Vick had less. Hell, as a starter, Bryce Brown got the ball more often in the first half than McCoy did. Give Vick more balanced attack behind a decent line, then judge him.
nephillymike
Is points in the main article about Vick's add'l responsibilities in Mudd's system and the impact of Kelce's early season "rookieness" in 2011 and his season ending injury in 2012 on Vick's play cannot be overstated.

It is possible that the QB's line blocking call responsibility under Mudd only works if you have one of the top QB's of all time, whose strength is the brain side of the game. In a lot of ways, that could have had a big impact on Vick.

I still remember the QB play of 2010 from him as being the best I've ever witnessed from an Eagles QB.

As long as it is an open competition, Vick wins the job. I think running is an important component of Kellys fully implememted offense.

Problem is, Vick is a concussed football player. It's only a matter of time, beofr ehe is knocked out again. Even if he wins the starters job, he only plays 12 games. Backup QB is very important.

I'm still wavering on the drafting of Geno Smith. I just got done the base work for my draft compilation. He comes in as the 18th best player in the draft. I have hard time pickig him a hlaf round earlier than he should go. He will not last past #8, IMO. I don't trade up to get him. But if we don't get him this year, we likely will have to pay a king's ransom to get a top QB next year, which I don't want to do. I don't know.

Two things that would make it an easier decision:

Sign OT S. Vollmer from NE so we don't have to draft an OT.
Jax or Oak pick Smith #2 or #3.

That makes our pick at #4 much easier for Floyd, Jordan, Milliner, or Warmack, all who should shine with our team for many years to come.
iggleslover49
I honestly have faith in Dixon as a back up should Vick down. As a matter of fact he's my favorite to win the starting job. I won't get mad at a Geno pick, but I really like Matt Scott later on in the draft.
chuckp
"Sign OT S. Vollmer from NE so we don't have to draft an OT."

NE resigned Vollmer a couple days ago.
Vick will start the season and get hurt in the second game after he couldn't read the defense in the read option and Foles will take over and next year we will draft Kelly's guy.
nephillymike
On the NFL Network, I just saw that Vollmer signed.

That sucks.

Well, add OT fisher to the mix of possibles at #4.

I just don't see what good it does us having 20M of cap space to carry forward again.

We have holes.

Some gaping.

Can we draft a good OT at #4. Probably, if we can get Fisher, maybe if we can get Johnson, but a little reach there.

The OT FA field was a worthy one. Could have filled a need via FA a draft another impact player at position of need at #4.
BirdsWinBaby
Vick is not smart enough. media guys can't say that for obvious reasons so they say he "struggles" or had "difficulty" of whatever but the fact is he just isn't very intelligent.

Its why he snaps the ball and just plays with whatever happens next. His physical talents covered up for his mental deficiency for years. Now in his 30s a new coach and system will hinge their hopes on a cerebral aspect that Vick has never displayed because he doesn't possess the tools for it? Good luck with that.

Lol@"the center got hurt"
D Rock
QUOTE (iggleslover49 @ Mar 27 2013, 03:43 AM) *
I honestly have faith in Dixon as a back up should Vick down. As a matter of fact he's my favorite to win the starting job. I won't get mad at a Geno pick, but I really like Matt Scott later on in the draft.

C'mon man. Figure it out. Vick sux nards. He doesn't have the required skill set to play nfl quarterback between the ears. He can't read a d pre or post snap. Never could.

As for Mudds blocking scheme being too complicated for anyone not named manning, that's a joke. The only additional responsibility on the qb is identifying the mike backer. Vick couldn't do it with any regularity.
Zero
QUOTE (D Rock @ Mar 27 2013, 10:14 AM) *
C'mon man. Figure it out. Vick sux nards. He doesn't have the required skill set to play nfl quarterback between the ears. He can't read a d pre or post snap. Never could.

As for Mudds blocking scheme being too complicated for anyone not named manning, that's a joke. The only additional responsibility on the qb is identifying the mike backer. Vick couldn't do it with any regularity.

In fairness, it's my understanding that the QB has to identify the MIKE and then call the blocking schemes that are normally called by the center. From what I hear Manning insisted on this because he was better suited for it than the center. It's not that most QBs can't do it, but apparently there are some that whiff on it frequently.
Eyrie
Regardless of whether Vick's poor performances were the result of having to call the pass protections, the relevant question is whether Vick can show the quick decision making that is essential for a Kelly QB. His career to date has shown that he has the same relationship with decision making that I have with Halle Berry (admittedly without the restraining order) so the job is Foles to lose at present.
nephillymike
QUOTE (Zero @ Mar 27 2013, 11:43 AM) *
In fairness, it's my understanding that the QB has to identify the MIKE and then call the blocking schemes that are normally called by the center. From what I hear Manning insisted on this because he was better suited for it than the center. It's not that most QBs can't do it, but apparently there are some that whiff on it frequently.



I agree Z. From what i hear, that is a big deal
D Rock
More QBs call their protections than don't. Logic would suggest that any QB worth his salt is "better suited" to reading defensive alignments and calling adjustments to the protection scheme. For 1, he's got a significantly better vantage point from which to view the Ds set. It's much tougher for a center to identify a safety drifting down into the box late in the play clock.

Identifying the Mike is QB 101. To be clear, correctly identifying the mike is essentially calling the protection scheme. The initial scheme is part of the play call, slide left on a sprint/toss left for example. The only calls made at that point are adjustments made to counter the Defensive alignment.

That Vick can't do it is beyond damning in my eyes. The guy's been in the league how long? And he still reads a defense like a deer in the headlights.

And to think that some still think this guy will one day be a decent quarterback. It boggles the mind.
iggleslover49
If only Vick were Payton Manning... He would get rid of the ball so fast the defense wouldn't have time to react. Could it possibly be that the colts oline looked so good because Payton made them look good? What has pro bowl C Jeff Saturday done post manning? Get benched and retire.
D Rock
QUOTE (iggleslover49 @ Mar 28 2013, 12:38 AM) *
If only Vick were Payton Manning... He would get rid of the ball so fast the defense wouldn't have time to react. Could it possibly be that the colts oline looked so good because Payton made them look good? What has pro bowl C Jeff Saturday done post manning? Get benched and retire.

and if my Aunt had balls, she'd be my Uncle.

You think Manning made the O line look better than it's talent level? Really? Going out on a limb of the obvious tree, eh?
iggleslover49
QUOTE (D Rock @ Mar 27 2013, 09:19 PM) *
You think Manning made the O line look better than it's talent level?

Ahhh yeah. Just like Vick's scrambling made our line look better than it's talent level in 2010. Anybody that doesn't notice that Manning got rid of the ball faster than any QB in the league when in Indy should be lynched by the football gods for eternity.
D Rock
QUOTE (iggleslover49 @ Mar 28 2013, 01:40 AM) *
Ahhh yeah. Just like Vick's scrambling made our line look better than it's talent level in 2010. Anybody that doesn't notice that Manning got rid of the ball faster than any QB in the league when in Indy should be lynched by the football gods for eternity.

And none of this has anything to do with the conversation at hand.

O line? Schmo line. The topic was whether or not it took a "quarterback genius" alla Manning to call protections.

It doesn't.
BirdsWinBaby
QUOTE (D Rock @ Mar 27 2013, 10:33 PM) *
And none of this has anything to do with the conversation at hand.

O line? Schmo line. The topic was whether or not it took a "quarterback genius" alla Manning to call protections.

It doesn't.


'zactly

comparing Vick to Manning is classic 'strawman' stuff...its transparent and in no way addresses Vick's lack of ability at the LOS
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (iggleslover49 @ Mar 27 2013, 09:40 PM) *
Just like Vick's scrambling made our line look better than it's talent level in 2010.


Not to mention Reid. If Kolb is our starter that year we go 6-10 and perhaps would've been freed of The Walrus way before now.
iggleslover49
QUOTE (BirdsWinBaby @ Mar 27 2013, 11:03 PM) *
'zactly

comparing Vick to Manning is classic 'strawman' stuff...its transparent and in no way addresses Vick's lack of ability at the LOS

There is no comparing Vick and Manning because the are different players with different skill sets. But no question both players' skill set made their olines look better than they were. Manning uses intelligence and preperation, audibles, and a quick release to get rid of the ball before pass rushers got to him. Vick used his legs and elusiveness to avoid sacks and buy time. Both guys made their lines look better than they were.
D Rock
QUOTE (iggleslover49 @ Mar 28 2013, 11:16 PM) *
There is no comparing Vick and Manning because the are different players with different skill sets.

Finally, you got it right. They are different players with different skill sets.

One has the skill set of an NFL quarterback. The other does not.
chefalan23
QUOTE (iggleslover49 @ Mar 28 2013, 05:16 PM) *
There is no comparing Vick and Manning because the are different players with different skill sets. But no question both players' skill set made their olines look better than they were. Manning uses intelligence and preperation, audibles, and a quick release to get rid of the ball before pass rushers got to him. Vick used his legs and elusiveness to avoid sacks and buy time. Both guys made their lines look better than they were.


This is exactly why Vick has looked so bad the past 2 years.....coaching staff trying to make Vick play like manning. Reverse the scenario and imaging John fox telling Peyton he had to start scrambling to extend the play. Manning would take just as bad of a beating as Vick has, and definitely not take it as well as Vick has.
BirdsWinBaby
QUOTE (chefalan23 @ Apr 1 2013, 02:53 PM) *
This is exactly why Vick has looked so bad the past 2 years.....coaching staff trying to make Vick play like manning. Reverse the scenario and imaging John fox telling Peyton he had to start scrambling to extend the play. Manning would take just as bad of a beating as Vick has, and definitely not take it as well as Vick has.



you arent following the discussion

nobody ever asked vick to play like manning. your post assumes that every QB that is asked to read a defense or make quick decisions has to be 'playing like manning.' as was stated, thats a fallacy

consider: maybe in the last 2 years when vick looks like he sucks? it could be....well...cuz he does
D Rock
QUOTE (BirdsWinBaby @ Apr 1 2013, 10:50 PM) *
you arent following the discussion

nobody ever asked vick to play like manning. your post assumes that every QB that is asked to read a defense or make quick decisions has to be 'playing like manning.' as was stated, thats a fallacy

consider: maybe in the last 2 years when vick looks like he sucks? it could be....well...cuz he does

Yes. 100% Yes.
chefalan23
Can you really say that any qb in the nfl could've done jack shit with that o line play we've seen the past couple years? I know you all jump on every chance you get to say how bad Vick sucks, but I just can't imagine the mighty Tom Brady himself fairing any better in that situation.
D Rock
QUOTE (chefalan23 @ Apr 2 2013, 03:58 AM) *
Can you really say that any qb in the nfl could've done jack shit with that o line play we've seen the past couple years? I know you all jump on every chance you get to say how bad Vick sucks, but I just can't imagine the mighty Tom Brady himself fairing any better in that situation.

I hear you. You're absolutely right. But. . . A 3rd round rookie came in after Vick got hurt and played better. Did he play well? Not really. The o line sucked, remember? But he played better than Vick. A 3rd round rookie. That old dog (pardon the pun) ain't learnin any new tricks north of 32.
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