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nephillymike
If Lurie went, maybe McNabbulous will get his wish after all.

Really, why would all three go on a special trip?

If you wanted to smokescreen for the purpose of making someone after 4 think you were going to pick him, they could have accomplished that without Lurie.

Could Geno Smith be coming here??
Zero
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Mar 11 2013, 07:09 PM) *
Could Geno Smith be coming here??


No. The Eagles need defense not another QB. Unless they load up on defense in FA but we've seen what can happen with that approach.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Zero @ Mar 11 2013, 07:13 PM) *
No. The Eagles need defense not another QB. Unless they load up on defense in FA but we've seen what can happen with that approach.


The fact that we have so many QB's is an indicator that we don't have a QB. Needing one and needing defense aren't mutually exclusive
iggleslover49
Chip ain't playin around. We currently have 5 on the roster and checking out Scott on top of this. This is interesting. But if we have a chance to hit on a good QB we still have weapons to contend in the NFC East. I'd love to get Dion Jordan, but if we got Geno I wouldn't be mad at that. Because there are going to be other guys in the 2nd and 3rd to draft in our position.
SLOiggles
I read about this earlier...and Lurie's name struck me a tell-tale sign that this kid is in consideration for the pick. You want to take a look at a potential pick? Send some scouts. Send a coach. Send the GM.

You send the owner, G.M., AND coach all at once? That's no smokescreen
D Rock
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Mar 12 2013, 12:09 AM) *
If you wanted to smokescreen for the purpose of making someone after 4 think you were going to pick him, they could have accomplished that without Lurie.

Perhaps, but it's a thicker smokescreen with him there, no?

QUOTE (nephillymike @ Mar 12 2013, 12:09 AM) *
Could Geno Smith be coming here??

I'd be shocked. (and very disapointed)

My first thought when I read that news, was that it was just as you suggest. It's an effort to make someone who wants him want to jump up and get him.
Zero
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Mar 11 2013, 07:50 PM) *
The fact that we have so many QB's is an indicator that we don't have a QB.

Maybe, but it also could be unfamiliarity with who they have and doing their due diligence in recognition of the importance the position demands.

I think this is a combination of acquainting themselves with the available options and making it very enticing for someone to offer a nice package to take that pick. I'd term it preparation.
HobbEs
I hope they're just doing their due dilligence. Geno at #4 would be a reach.
mcnabbulous
The argument that they did this to cause trade demand doesn't seem to hold water to me. If they are trying to scare a team into moving up for Geno, they aren't going to trade with us. They'll trade up above us.

They are rightfully doing their due diligence. And Lurie was there to see if this guy can be the face of the franchise. If you have a top-5 pick and you don't consider the best QB available, you're in the wrong business. Our QB situation is dog shit. Vick is done and Foles is a guy.

I think Oakland is going to take Geno, but if he's around at 4, and our big 3 liked him, they should and will take him.
xsv
He's a reach at #4, but he's not going to make it out of the top half of the draft. I'm not sold on him, but I don't like any of our other options at QB, either.

I think I'd take the risk.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (xsv @ Mar 12 2013, 09:38 AM) *
He's a reach at #4

I still don't understand how this has become a talking point. What makes him a reach? Not his production, not his measurables. He comes from virtually the same offense as RGIII, so it's not like that can't work.

The argument seems to boil down to him not being a "can't miss" as if prospects are typically as polished as Andrew Luck. Even Griffin had many detractors (me not being one of them) before the draft. Most people thought the Skins paid too much. Very few do now.

Edited to add link to Wingheads discussion about Skins trade.
TGryn
I assume they'll be doing the same for the Pro Day workouts of guys like Joeckel, Fisher, Lotulelei, etc. The only potential top-5 guy's workout I could see them passing on attendance would be the Oregon pro day (Jordan), simply because Kelly already knows everything he needs to know about his former players.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (TGryn @ Mar 12 2013, 10:13 AM) *
I assume they'll be doing the same for the Pro Day workouts of guys like Joeckel, Fisher, Lotulelei, etc.


With the exception of Lurie being there. That only happened because QB is the face of and most important player on a football team. Lurie wants to make sure this guy can adequately represent the franchise for the next decade. From what I've heard, he should have no problem doing that.

It just occurred to me that if all went very well, it could warrant the Eagles deciding to move up to beat Oakland to the punch.
TGryn
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Mar 12 2013, 07:23 AM) *
With the exception of Lurie being there. That only happened because QB is the face of and most important player on a football team. Lurie wants to make sure this guy can adequately represent the franchise for the next decade.

Although if Lurie does show up at the other workouts, that'll be a strong indication that the front office dynamic has changed and Lurie's taking a more hands-on approach to vetting the team's high draft picks. We'll see.
D Rock
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Mar 12 2013, 02:58 PM) *
I still don't understand how this has become a talking point. What makes him a reach? Not his production, not his measurables. He comes from virtually the same offense as RGIII, so it's not like that can't work.

What makes it a talking point is the fact that its a fact. He comes from the same o as rg3? That scares me off more because he didn't fair as well.

His "production" is a myth. He threw the ball at or near the Los the vast majority of his attempts. His numbers are simply a manifestation of the greatness that is tavon.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (D Rock @ Mar 12 2013, 10:44 AM) *
He comes from the same o as rg3? That scares me off more because he didn't fair as well.

His "production" is a myth. He threw the ball at or near the Los the vast majority of his attempts. His numbers are simply a manifestation of the greatness that is tavon.

His numbers were as good as RGIII. Your criticisms are base on him thriving within the design of the offense he was placed.

And you could have made the same argument regarding Kendall Wright.

Edit: and so we are clear, I don't think Geno is as good as RGIII. But I think he's very worthy of a top-5 pick.
nephillymike
Ike Reese just said that Smith is a better passer and better QB coming out of college than McNabb was.

Seems like many are warming up to Smith as our pick.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Mar 12 2013, 11:14 AM) *
Ike Reese just said that Smith is a better passer and better QB coming out of college than McNabb was.

Seems like many are warming up to Smith as our pick.


This is very true and what I've been saying. Not sure how he isn't a viable pick at #4.
HobbEs
QUOTE
Not sure how he isn't a viable pick at #4.


I think that's because when you're drafting this high you need to hit a home run with the pick. A lot of people don't know much about him (myself included) and there's been a lot of talk by the draft pundits that he's not worth a top ten pick. Factor in that this is not a good QB draft and you can understand the skepticism with the pick.
D Rock
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Mar 12 2013, 04:14 PM) *
Ike Reese just said that Smith is a better passer and better QB coming out of college than McNabb was.

Seems like many are warming up to Smith as our pick.

Ike Reese, huh?

Nice guy, but not exactly a credible judge of talent.

6 time NFL exec of the year, bill polian still says he's not 1st round worthy from a talent point of view. He'll go in round 1 because teams are willing to reach on the position. But he's no where near a 4th overall pick.

mcnabbulous
You're far too hung up on Polian. He's unemployed for a reason.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (HobbEs @ Mar 12 2013, 12:00 PM) *
I think that's because when you're drafting this high you need to hit a home run with the pick.


There are no guarantees in life. Or more importantly, the draft. See: Robert Gallery (and countless others)
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE
Nice guy, but not exactly a credible judge of talent.


And you are? If you say he'll be a sub-par QB, I'm convinced we should take him at #4.

QUOTE
6 time NFL exec of the year, bill polian still says he's not 1st round worthy from a talent point of view. He'll go in round 1 because teams are willing to reach on the position. But he's no where near a 4th overall pick.


You mean 'NFL analyst' Bill Polian - funny, he must've retired voluntarily from the game? Or was he fired?
HobbEs
QUOTE
There are no guarantees in life. Or more importantly, the draft. See: Robert Gallery (and countless others)


True but by doing your due dilligence you can minimize risk. I would hate to reach for a QB at #4 and find out he's more like Akili Smith than Donovan McNabb. We have other holes to fill and there are better prospects available for positions of need.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (HobbEs @ Mar 12 2013, 01:27 PM) *
True but by doing your due dilligence you can minimize risk. I would hate to reach for a QB at #4 and find out he's more like Akili Smith than Donovan McNabb. We have other holes to fill and there are better prospects available for positions of need.


Improving our QB situation would do more to improve this team than any other possible move.

I agree they need to do due diligence, which it seems like they have. I just think the argument that this guy is not worthy of a top pick is garbage. He has every physical trait needed to succeed and is a better passer than Donovan when we took him #2.

At the very least, our FO thinks he's worth taking a long, hard look at. And I'm happy they are doing so.

You either have a QB or you don't in modern football. Right now, we don't.
D Rock
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Mar 12 2013, 05:39 PM) *
And you are? If you say he'll be a sub-par QB, I'm convinced we should take him at #4.



You mean 'NFL analyst' Bill Polian - funny, he must've retired voluntarily from the game? Or was he fired?

Like I said.... Clearly sportin a hardon.

wub.gif
D Rock
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Mar 12 2013, 05:31 PM) *
You're far too hung up on Polian. He's unemployed for a reason.

6 time NFL exec of the year. Everybody runs their course in the league. Or is Andy suddenly a lousy coach because he was fired?
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (D Rock @ Mar 12 2013, 03:01 PM) *
6 time NFL exec of the year. Everybody runs their course in the league. Or is Andy suddenly a lousy coach because he was fired?


Apples and oranges. Andy has always made poor college evaluation decisions, in my opinion. And you can't coach when your team is weak, which ours has been.

Polian was shit in Indianapolis. He landed a top-3 QB of all-time with the first pick of his tenure and never had to worry for a decade. Once he didn't have that, the real team he built reared its ugly head.

Grigson will look like a genius in Indy for the next decade.
TGryn
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Mar 12 2013, 08:14 AM) *
Ike Reese just said that Smith is a better passer and better QB coming out of college than McNabb was.

unsure.gif McNabb was regarded as something of a conversion project re: his passing, coming out of the Syracuse option attack. He threw only 251 passes as a senior, compared with 371 for Akili Smith , 402 for Dante Culpepper, and 601 for Tim Couch. So I'm not sure saying "he's a better passer than McNabb was coming out of college" helps his case much.
Zero
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Mar 12 2013, 09:13 AM) *
The argument that they did this to cause trade demand doesn't seem to hold water to me. If they are trying to scare a team into moving up for Geno, they aren't going to trade with us. They'll trade up above us.

They are rightfully doing their due diligence. And Lurie was there to see if this guy can be the face of the franchise. If you have a top-5 pick and you don't consider the best QB available, you're in the wrong business. Our QB situation is dog shit. Vick is done and Foles is a guy.

I think Oakland is going to take Geno, but if he's around at 4, and our big 3 liked him, they should and will take him.


I've heard that Buffalo is definitely interested in drafting him. So, what if Arizona thinks they need a QB now? Or, what if the Bills think the Cards will take him if he makes it that far? What if the Jags and/or Raiders want too much or don't want to move?

I think there's room for lots of water in that theory. Doesn't make it so, but it's sure enough possible.
SLOiggles
I think what I heard on the Fanatic the other day was the best way to phrase it.

When you're drafting this high in the draft...you want to make it the last time for a long time.

We haven't had a top 5 pick since McNabb, although Corey Simon was #6. Either way, we haven't been in this position in a long time. Let's hope that we can make the most of it, regardless of the player(s) selected.
Hound
I hate to be the one that has to point this out, BUT should the brass decide Geno Smith is our next franchise QB please try not to boo him at the draft. Just Sayin' Thank You...
D Rock
QUOTE (Hound @ Mar 14 2013, 05:04 AM) *
I hate to be the one that has to point this out, BUT should the brass decide Geno Smith is our next franchise QB please try not to boo him at the draft. Just Sayin' Thank You...

Dont worry, Hound. Not too many players people would get their panties in a wad over such silliness the way the professional injustic collector did.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (Hound @ Mar 14 2013, 01:04 AM) *
I hate to be the one that has to point this out, BUT should the brass decide Geno Smith is our next franchise QB please try not to boo him at the draft. Just Sayin' Thank You...


Yeah even Angelo Cataldi had to apologize for that episode - sure, we have some frothing-at-the-mouth, butthurt ahole fans who would do that, but hopefully they'll be busy calling in threats to Vick booksignings that day and won't make it to the draft. tongue.gif
mcnabbulous
Apparently Geno's footwork looked much improved at his pro day. Scouts said the ball was coming out well and he looked accurate.

Not that I take too much from throwing against invisible defenders, but the one concern most people had about him was his footwork.
nephillymike
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Mar 14 2013, 10:32 AM) *
Apparently Geno's footwork looked much improved at his pro day. Scouts said the ball was coming out well and he looked accurate.

Not that I take too much from throwing against invisible defenders, but the one concern most people had about him was his footwork.



I heard he looked very impressive and completed 60 of 64 passes and two of the four incompletions were dropped.

You never know. It could be Smith at #4.

Jaws is supposed to come on this afternoon to give his opinion as he was there.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Mar 14 2013, 11:31 AM) *
I heard he looked very impressive and completed 60 of 64 passes and two of the four incompletions were dropped.

You never know. It could be Smith at #4.

Jaws is supposed to come on this afternoon to give his opinion as he was there.

It's not too late too hop on board the Mcnabbulous train wink.gif
Eyrie
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Mar 14 2013, 03:32 PM) *
Apparently Geno's footwork looked much improved at his pro day. Scouts said the ball was coming out well and he looked accurate.

Not that I take too much from throwing against invisible defenders, but the one concern most people had about him was his footwork.

Encouraging to know that he's improved his footwork when under such pressure tongue.gif
JeeQ
I could see Chip drafting him just so he can say he has "his" QB choice. No Reid-Era QBs
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Mar 14 2013, 01:49 PM) *
Encouraging to know that he's improved his footwork when under such pressure tongue.gif

Hey, as I've said, if that's his biggest problem I like him even more. There is nothing to suggest he doesn't have the physical abilities, mental capacity, or work ethic to thrive.
D Rock
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Mar 14 2013, 04:32 PM) *
Apparently Geno's footwork looked much improved at his pro day. Scouts said the ball was coming out well and he looked accurate.

Not that I take too much from throwing against invisible defenders, but the one concern most people had about him was his footwork.

Footwork can be coached. The BIG question is whether or not he can read a defense. He was never asked to before.
nephillymike
Jaws was raving about him today on 97.5. However, when Mikey Miss put him on the spot of whether or not Jaes would draft him at #4, Jaws hmmed and hawed and said he wasn't convinced of his leadership qualities. Ouch. I didn't see that coming after the way Jaws was praising his workout.

One thing that was very interesting though, Jaws said he found out from Smith that the Eagles three put him thru an extensive workout and had him throwing a bunch of "on the move" passes and sat him down for a classroom like sesssion asking him a bunch of high level questions. He said that the Eagles brass was very nice but they drilled him about everything.

I tell you what, if he's there at #4, I would be surprised if we don't take him based on this.

The tell tale sign we wil draft him?

When we sign an OT in FA in the next few days.

Chris Long come on down.....................................
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (D Rock @ Mar 14 2013, 05:09 PM) *
Footwork can be coached. The BIG question is whether or not he can read a defense. He was never asked to before.


The few amount of mistakes he made indicated to me that he can. He also considers himself to be a film junkie.
I realize his offense helped protect him, but you still have to make pre snap reads.
iggleslover49
QUOTE (D Rock @ Mar 14 2013, 06:09 PM) *
Footwork can be coached. The BIG question is whether or not he can read a defense. He was never asked to before.

Why would you question this? His numbers are better than any QB in this draft. He's a College QB you think they don't have to read defenses at that level? Your wrong. He's got the athelticism to burn you with his feet, but NEVER relies on it and chooses to pick defenses apart with his arm.
D Rock
QUOTE (iggleslover49 @ Mar 15 2013, 02:46 AM) *
Why would you question this? His numbers are better than any QB in this draft. He's a College QB you think they don't have to read defenses at that level? Your wrong. He's got the athelticism to burn you with his feet, but NEVER relies on it and chooses to pick defenses apart with his arm.

Sorry. But if you think all college quarterbacks read defenses, you're beyond hope. Sure, he's got athletecism, but I defy you to find him using it on tape. Have you even seen the kid play?

Why would I "question this?"

His numbers were "better than any QB in this draft?" So what? These QBs are all a bunch of schlubs. That's like sleeping with a fat chick because she's the least fat chick on the biggest loser. She's still a fat chick from the biggest loser. His "numbers" were largely a product of Tavon and the talented skill possition players he played with.

Get this.

He threw the majority of his passes within 5 yards of the LOS. He threw the plurality of his passes (30%+) BEHIND the LOS. That to me, devalues his "numbers." When a bubble screen goes for a 65 yard score, that's hard to attribute to great quarterbacking and isn't exactly an example of "reading the defense." I'm defining "reading the defense" as recognizing the coverage and correctly deciding where to go with the ball. He's a 1 read quarterback currently. The college spread offense does NOT require the QB to read a defense alla the pro game. That's not his fault. But it is the fact.

Don't wanna believe me? Okay.

KFFL backs up my thoughts on his "numbers" by listing in his weaknesses "Inflated statistcal production based on WVs high flying system and players.

Don't wanna believe KKFL? Okay.

This from Erik Galko of Optimum Scouting, Inc...

-snip-

After West Virginia’s 5-0 start to the season—including a win at Texas—Geno Smith was poised to go from “trendy sleeper” quarterback prospect to emerging star, with NFL teams drooling at the chance to draft him. With gaudy stats, consistent ball placement, lateral mobility and great anticipation, Geno Smith seized the opportunity to wow on the stat sheet and on film early in his first and only Big 12 season.

But a 35-point loss at Texas Tech followed. Then a 41-point home loss to Kansas State. (personal note: Geno completed 21 of 35 passes for only 143 yards or 4.5 per attempt: threw 1 Td and 2 Ints) Then three more defeats. Suddenly, Smith wasn’t the Heisman favorite anymore and began to raise some doubts for QB-needy NFL teams. Smith finished the 2012 season admirably but lost to fellow 2013 draft prospect Ryan Nassib and Syracuse in the Pinstripe Bowl.

Based on the stat sheet and record book, Smith showed he couldn’t handle pressure, that he didn’t have an NFL skill set at quarterback and didn’t have what it takes to be a franchise NFL quarterback.

-unsnip-

Don't wanna believe that Professional Scout? Okay.

6 time NFL executive of the year Bill Polian (I know some of you want to dismiss this career NFL talent evaluator, but I personally find that reality laughable) says that his ceiling is "career backup."

Don't wanna believe Bill Polian? Okay.

Greg Cosell (see his wiki for resume of this professional analyst and talent evaluator) says....

"There's no question that he has an NFL arm -- he's an NFL talent. He's got some other issues. He's got footwork issues, but that can be corrected. He plays almost exclusively in the shotgun and he's a bit of a bouncer -- in other words, he doesn't take the snap, drop back, stick his foot in the ground and get ready to go.

"He sort of bounces, so when he decides where he wants to throw the ball, he then needs to plant and deliver. Sometimes he hurries himself doing that if there are bodies closer to him, and at other times, he's a beat late with throws, because he has that extra half-second where he then has to plant and throw. At times, I thought he was a little bit erratic and scattershot with his accuracy, and he regularly left some routine throws on the field.....

....The problem for these young passers is an issue of patience. After watching Luck, Robert Griffin III and Russell Wilson tear up the NFL as newbies, tolerance for slow-cooked arm talent is at an all-time low. Smith and the rest of this class would benefit from time to watch and learn, but the NFL is no longer a watch-and-learn league for first-year signal callers."

Don't wanna belive Greg Cosell? Okay.

Mike Mayock (I know, I know - you all know more than Mike too) said after a 12 hour film study session on Geno . . .

"I watched a bunch of Geno Smith and he can make every throw. He's athletic. The ball jumps out of his hand. But there's a lot of things that make me nervous about him. He misses people by wide margins for no reason. I see a little bit of hesitancy with the blitz. When that first read is not there, it's not as pretty on the second or third read. His eyes come down. He makes mistakes."

He goes on to say that he's not sure he's a "first round talent let alone a top 5." But admits that some QB needy dope will likely reach for him in the top 10.

Don't wanna believe Mike? Okay.

Charley Casserly classifies Geno as "borderline first round talent."

Don't wanna believe Charley? Okay.

Walter Football's evaluation sumarises him as "A poor man's Donovan McNabb." Saying "he wont win as much as McNabb did, but IF he pans out, he could be similar to Donovan."

..................

I could go on and on.

Look.

I'm not suggesting these guys (or any) hold the keys to football knowledge nirvana. But they are professionals while you and I are fans.

I've read comparisons (on the good side) to Rothlesburger (has athletecism but almost refuses to use it) and Alex Smith (game manager ceiling).

The guy falls apart under pressure. He has had multiple, multiple safety games, and has a fumbling problem when pressured.

He may be great. But the evidence that he wont be vastly outweighs that which says he will.

Bottom Line:

I'm of the firm belief that when you've "earned" the #4 pick . . . you HAVE to get a perennial All Pro, regardless of position, need, or side of the ball. You don't take a shot at "potential" with the #4 pick.

I'd be fine taking him if we trade back to 10 - 15, but as previously stated . . . "Some QB needy dope will likely take him before that."

If Christian Ponder were in this class, he'd be rated higher.

No Thanks.
Zero
So, do you think the Eagles should draft Smith at #4? biggrin.gif
phillyfan4ever
Just throwing this out there, looking at the draft order / draft value chart what do you think of the following?

With the Number 4 pick taking - Dion Jordan OLB

Then trading the following up to number 6 1,600 points(ahead of the cardinals who everyone has taking Geno Smith)
Nick Foles (value of pick was 88 points (potential makes it higher but how much)
This years second round pick (550)
Next years second round pick (?? depending on our win/loss record if we are picking in the top 10 no less then 430 point)

Worst out come for the Brown would be 1068 (550+430+88) plus they have a young QB to build around? Is Foles potential worth roughly 600 points to the Browns ? If the EAGLES are in the Top 5 of the draft again then it would be 550 again.


Just thoughts we get a OLB and QB of the future?
Eyrie
QUOTE (phillyfan4ever @ Mar 15 2013, 06:22 PM) *
Just throwing this out there, looking at the draft order / draft value chart what do you think of the following?

With the Number 4 pick taking - Dion Jordan OLB

Then trading the following up to number 6 1,600 points(ahead of the cardinals who everyone has taking Geno Smith)
Nick Foles (value of pick was 88 points (potential makes it higher but how much)
This years second round pick (550)
Next years second round pick (?? depending on our win/loss record if we are picking in the top 10 no less then 430 point)

Worst out come for the Brown would be 1068 (550+430+88) plus they have a young QB to build around? Is Foles potential worth roughly 600 points to the Browns ? If the EAGLES are in the Top 5 of the draft again then it would be 550 again.


Just thoughts we get a OLB and QB of the future?

I'd rather trade this year's second round pick for what we'd expect to be a decent first next year (10-15 range) and use the two firsts in 2014 to target a top QB if Foles doesn't work out.
TGryn
It'd probably take Foles + 2013 2nd + 2014 1st, maybe more, to get #6 overall. Picks in subsequent drafts are traditionally bumped down a round from their current-year value, basically because there's a 1-year lag where the team isn't getting any playing time out of the player who would have been that pick, had the selection been in the current draft.
D Rock
Honestly, I don't want any of this years quarterbacks. Next year's look to be better. I wouldn't trade this years 2nd as I'm hoping that lands us a quality player this year (cyprien?).

I'd trade a 3rd or 4th this year for a 2nd or 3rd next. Then use them to trade up for our QB in next year's draft.
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