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Mr. Bonko
I see no reason to keep Vick right until the deadline next week. I expect he will be released this week,. Good riddance to that walking-turnover. That guy has to be the most moronic QB ever to play the game. I am amazed anyone could be as stupid as him. Really, can you name one QB dumber than him? Ryan leaf is the only one that comes to mind as a possible competition. But I say Vick is even dumber than that dolt.

In fact, Leon Lett might be the only dumber player at any position to play in the league.

Now that Vick will finally be gone, does someone know exactly how much of the media-created $100M contract was actually paid? I am guessing $35M +/-. And then those shitheads (in the media) wonder why their industry is in a precipitous decline. They brought it on themselves and I long for the day they are all on the breadlines.

And finally, F the Cowboys and all they stand for. May their next plane ride go the way of Marsshall football in 1970.


iggleslover49
They are simply waiting for him to restructure his contract. That is all. If he does this, he stays. If he does not he'll be gone.
Mr. Bonko
QUOTE (iggleslover49 @ Jan 27 2013, 10:33 AM) *
They are simply waiting for him to restructure his contract. That is all.


Are you suggesting they are going to re-structure his contract and keep him? If so, you are certifiably nuts (with all due respect). There is no need to restructure a contract of a guy you are cutting.
iggleslover49
QUOTE (Mr. Bonko @ Jan 27 2013, 10:35 AM) *
Are you suggesting they are going to re-structure his contract and keep him? If so, you are certifiably nuts (with all due respect). There is no need to restructure a contract of a guy you are cutting.

Lol das exactly what I'm suggesting, with that being said, I am definitely certified. And so is the Eagles front office for even bringing him here to begin with.(which did in turn get us the NFC east and double digit winning season at least one year; we nuts)

Ain't it painfully obvious that the only people that want Vick gone are fans? Real football guys recognize the talent and the atrocious oline and will continue to roll the dice if the price is right.
Eyrie
QUOTE (iggleslover49 @ Jan 27 2013, 04:23 PM) *
Ain't it painfully obvious that the only people that want Vick gone are fans? Real football guys recognize the talent and the atrocious oline and will continue to roll the dice if the price is right.

So when he is cut by us, you are predicting that teams will be queueing up to throw money at a fumble prone, concussion prone, inaccurate QB who can't read defences and whose one outstanding talent of scrambling is clearly on the decline?

You're going to be very disappointed.
Rick
QUOTE (iggleslover49 @ Jan 27 2013, 11:23 AM) *
Ain't it painfully obvious that the only people that want Vick gone are fans? Real football guys recognize the talent and the atrocious oline and will continue to roll the dice if the price is right.

What talent? He's had, "raw talent," from day one. Has he developed it? Any of it?

That, "atrocious," oline did well enough protecting a rookie QB to allow him to look like he may be able to throw a football. What's the difference? Vick holds the ball too long and is too dumb to get rid of it quicker...just like he's been his WHOLE career.

We were stupid to sign him to start and we'd be BEYOND nuts to keep him now...even if HE paid US to play.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Rick @ Jan 27 2013, 01:41 PM) *
Vick holds the ball too long and is too dumb to get rid of it quicker...just like he's been his WHOLE career.


I agree with many of your general points, but I'm curious why you always resort to the intelligence argument? Vick spent his entire life being more athletic than everyone he ever set foot on a field with. He never had to quickly break down defenses, because he always had the ability do whatever he wanted after the ball was snapped.

His performance against a very talented FSU defense in the championship game was one of the most amazing football performances I've ever seen. With that said, because he was unable to learn a skill that only a handful of people in the world are really good at hardly makes him dumb. He's just not a good QB, because he spent his entire career not really having to worry about being so.
Rick
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 27 2013, 11:53 PM) *
I agree with many of your general points, but I'm curious why you always resort to the intelligence argument? Vick spent his entire life being more athletic than everyone he ever set foot on a field with. He never had to quickly break down defenses, because he always had the ability do whatever he wanted after the ball was snapped.

His performance against a very talented FSU defense in the championship game was one of the most amazing football performances I've ever seen. With that said, because he was unable to learn a skill that only a handful of people in the world are really good at hardly makes him dumb. He's just not a good QB, because he spent his entire career not really having to worry about being so.

I say he's not intelligent partially because of his lack of QB intelligence but mainly because of the choices he made in his personal life. Buying a property, turning it into a dog fighting paradise and building a complete business in order to conduct dog fights when they are quite illegal and he's such a celebrity (especially at the time) is something I'd call pretty friggin' unintelligent--especially when he was far for hurting for money.

His athleticism has nothing to do with his intelligence (or lack of). His performance in a college football game has nothing to do with intelligence. His performances over the years have been amazing but I don't see many of them being amazing because of his intelligence, rather, they were because of his athleticism. You don't have to be smart to be athletic.
mcnabbulous
Precisely. He's relied on athleticism, so he's had no need to learn the nuances of the position. Breaking down a defense as a QB has less to do with intelligence and more to do with experience. Because he spent his entire career neglecting that skill, it never developed, as is common for mobile QB's who rely too heavily on their athleticism to properly adjust.

As for his terrible personal life decisions, I attribute that to ignorance brought upon by the culture in which he was raised, as well as the immaturity that is common in athletes.

Oh well, just curious.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 28 2013, 09:31 AM) *
As for his terrible personal life decisions, I attribute that to ignorance brought upon by the culture in which he was raised, as well as the immaturity that is common in athletes.


What other athletes are you aware of who decided to take on dogfighting as a hobby while in the middle of making $100+ million dollars?

What culture are you referring to? The Canadian ghetto? laugh.gif
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Jan 28 2013, 11:29 AM) *
What other athletes are you aware of who decided to take on dogfighting as a hobby while in the middle of making $100+ million dollars?

What culture are you referring to? The Canadian ghetto? laugh.gif

No, I'm talking about the American ghetto, where dogfighting is a way of life. In fact, I just had this conversation with several of my neighbors at our local dog park, many of which couldn't believe I could be an Eagles fan, despite being a dog lover.

I said at the time, and I still believe that I can't fathom what it was like to grow up in Michael Vick's childhood environment, where dog fighting is a way of life.

One of my neighbors said that she grew up a block or so from that very stuff, but was sheltered from it by her parents. Otherwise, her love of dogs may not have come about.

I have no idea how many other athletes got involved with dogfighting, but I suspect it's a much greater number than you think.
chefalan23
QUOTE (Mr. Bonko @ Jan 27 2013, 09:15 AM) *
I see no reason to keep Vick right until the deadline next week. I expect he will be released this week,. Good riddance to that walking-turnover. That guy has to be the most moronic QB ever to play the game. I am amazed anyone could be as stupid as him. Really, can you name one QB dumber than him? Ryan leaf is the only one that comes to mind as a possible competition. But I say Vick is even dumber than that dolt.

In fact, Leon Lett might be the only dumber player at any position to play in the league.

Now that Vick will finally be gone, does someone know exactly how much of the media-created $100M contract was actually paid? I am guessing $35M +/-. And then those shitheads (in the media) wonder why their industry is in a precipitous decline. They brought it on themselves and I long for the day they are all on the breadlines.

And finally, F the Cowboys and all they stand for. May their next plane ride go the way of Marsshall football in 1970.

You think Vick is dumber than Vince young? How bout Jamarcus russel?
Rick
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 28 2013, 11:51 AM) *
No, I'm talking about the American ghetto, where dogfighting is a way of life.

I really get sick of hearing about this. Dogfighting is NOT a way of life in the, "ghetto". This was fabricated in defense of Vick. It's not nearly as prevalent as you'd be led to believe. If it were, you'd see much more coming of it yet you don't.

That whole argument when it was happening was ridiculous.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Rick @ Jan 29 2013, 06:52 AM) *
I really get sick of hearing about this. Dogfighting is NOT a way of life in the, "ghetto". This was fabricated in defense of Vick. It's not nearly as prevalent as you'd be led to believe. If it were, you'd see much more coming of it yet you don't.

That whole argument when it was happening was ridiculous.


Unfortunately, when young minds are exposed to certain lifestyles, they can be manipulated to believe said lifestyles are acceptable. I'm not sure how we can define whether the prevalence of dogfighting is significant or not, bit any exposure Vick had at a young age would make him susceptible to believing its an acceptable way of life. So, to my point, it doesn't really matter if you deem it to be a significant number. If he was exposed to it, then he could rationalize it personally.
Rick
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 29 2013, 09:06 AM) *
Unfortunately, when young minds are exposed to certain lifestyles, they can be manipulated to believe said lifestyles are acceptable. I'm not sure how we can define whether the prevalence of dogfighting is significant or not, bit any exposure Vick had at a young age would make him susceptible to believing its an acceptable way of life. So, to my point, it doesn't really matter if you deem it to be a significant number. If he was exposed to it, then he could rationalize it personally.

Huh? Not even sure what you're trying to say here as it makes even less sense.

I have lived next to Paterson, NJ (within 1 mile), that would be the definition of ghetto. NEVER did I hear of any dog fighting going on there. None in the crappy parts of Newark or the other surrounding ghettos.

Used to live in South Jersey. Never heard of it going on in the bad parts of Philly. I live in Jacksonville and don't hear about it going on in the bad sections here.

So where, exactly, is this a lifestyle? That is my point.

Why people want to make excuses for that POS is beyond me. What he did was horrible. There is NO excuse for it.
mcnabbulous
Well if you never heard of it, I guess it doesn't happen.

You know, other than the fact that it does. Given that you admitted you never had a drink of alcohol until 25, I am going to assume you didn't run in those circles.
BirdsWinBaby
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 29 2013, 01:55 PM) *
Well if you never heard of it, I guess it doesn't happen.

You know, other than the fact that it does. Given that you admitted you never had a drink of alcohol until 25, I am going to assume you didn't run in those circles.


It's my understanding that dog fighting, animal cruelty , etc...was indeed a part of Vick's upbringing which no doubt influenced his behavior....however dogfighting is not a way of life of every ghetto in America

The young vick narrative talked of poverty and dog fighting and since many of those writers know little of ghetto living they mistakenly linked the two. I submit that there are tons of people living in ghettos who know as much about dog fighting as they do about cockfights
Phits
QUOTE (Rick @ Jan 29 2013, 01:37 PM) *
So where, exactly, is this a lifestyle? That is my point.

It's a part of the culture in the South. It also thrives on the East coast. Just because you have never seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

QUOTE
Why people want to make excuses for that POS is beyond me. What he did was horrible. There is NO excuse for it.

You have to understand, before you condemn the person (not the action).
Phits
QUOTE (BirdsWinBaby @ Jan 29 2013, 03:38 PM) *
It's my understanding that dog fighting, animal cruelty , etc...was indeed a part of Vick's upbringing which no doubt influenced his behavior....however dogfighting is not a way of life of every ghetto in America

The young vick narrative talked of poverty and dog fighting and since many of those writers know little of ghetto living they mistakenly linked the two. I submit that there are tons of people living in ghettos who know as much about dog fighting as they do about cockfights

More importantly, these types of activities are not limited to the impoverished.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (BirdsWinBaby @ Jan 29 2013, 04:38 PM) *
The young vick narrative talked of poverty and dog fighting and since many of those writers know little of ghetto living they mistakenly linked the two. I submit that there are tons of people living in ghettos who know as much about dog fighting as they do about cockfights


Admittedly I misstated things. I would actually wager that it is more prevalent in rural areas to urban, which typically wouldn't be referred to as ghetto.
The main point is that it's a very cultural thing, much like hunting. I can't relate to either cultural upbringing (despite the fact that I was raised in a big hunting area, albeit by non-hunters.)
The main point remains. Vick was raised in an environment where dogs were not valued parts of the family. In fact, they weren't valued at all.
samaroo
Why is what Vick did any worse than what Ray Lewis did? Or Roethlisberger? Or several dozen other people?

If intelligence is measured by your off-field behavior, than I say Big Ben is the dumbest ever. Even if he is innocent of every charge, the fact that he puts himself in exposed situations like he does is telling, and quite frankly in my opinion, very stupid.
iggleslover49
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Jan 27 2013, 01:20 PM) *
So when he is cut by us, you are predicting that teams will be queueing up to throw money at a fumble prone, concussion prone, inaccurate QB who can't read defences and whose one outstanding talent of scrambling is clearly on the decline?

You're going to be very disappointed.

I won't be the least bit disappointed I PROMISE you. But guys are exaggerating just a little bit IMO bout what Vick can and can't do. In his time in Philly I've seen Vick show the ability to pass and run the ball effectively. Vick CAN be coached and still puts good yardage. Reduce the fumbles and you telling me you want him gone? Some guys are just flat out HATING
iggleslover49
QUOTE (Rick @ Jan 29 2013, 06:52 AM) *
I really get sick of hearing about this. Dogfighting is NOT a way of life in the, "ghetto". This was fabricated in defense of Vick. It's not nearly as prevalent as you'd be led to believe. If it were, you'd see much more coming of it yet you don't.

That whole argument when it was happening was ridiculous.

Around HERE around the country side of SC dog fighting is totally a way of life. For some people it feeds their family. I've seen a guy who was raising atleast 10 pits, training them to fight. Those dogs killed wild hogs down here for fun.

So this is not just some "fabrication" this is real, not just here in the south, but all over the US. And please don't think I'm defending Vick, I'm just being real about.
Rick
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 29 2013, 01:55 PM) *
Well if you never heard of it, I guess it doesn't happen.

You know, other than the fact that it does. Given that you admitted you never had a drink of alcohol until 25, I am going to assume you didn't run in those circles.

Huh? What the hell are you talking about?

You have no idea whom I've known, hung out with or been around. As usual, you're making assumptions about something you know nothing about.
Rick
QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 29 2013, 03:44 PM) *
It's a part of the culture in the South. It also thrives on the East coast. Just because you have never seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Where? I've spent the bulk of my life on the East Coast (NJ, NC, CT and now FL). I've not seen nor heard of it in any of those places (not as being extremely common).

Meth is a big part of these cultures and, guess what? I hear of meth labs being discovered all of the time. If dogfighting was such a big deal, you'd hear about dogfighting rings being broken up....at least some of the time. I'v RARELY heard of it. So where is all of this dogfighting?

I've also asked my friends who grew up in these areas and (many) still live there. They don't know about dogfighting either. Contrary to what some people think, I've not led the sheltered life of some people around here. I've left my basement to get out in the world...

The media likes to blow things out of proportion.

QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 29 2013, 03:44 PM) *
You have to understand, before you condemn the person (not the action).

Understand what? He's a POS. I don't care whether he was brought up living in the middle of a dogfighting ring. It's plain wrong.

I guess if someone is a rapist or serial killer we should get to understand the person? That's just ridiculous. It's really gotten ridiculous these days where everyone who does something bad has an excuse. If you do bad things you're a bad person...PERIOD. It doesn't matter WHY you did you, the point is, you did it.
Rick
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 29 2013, 04:46 PM) *
Admittedly I misstated things. I would actually wager that it is more prevalent in rural areas to urban, which typically wouldn't be referred to as ghetto.
The main point is that it's a very cultural thing, much like hunting. I can't relate to either cultural upbringing (despite the fact that I was raised in a big hunting area, albeit by non-hunters.)
The main point remains. Vick was raised in an environment where dogs were not valued parts of the family. In fact, they weren't valued at all.

So, again, you're making assumptions. You have no idea.
Rick
QUOTE (samaroo @ Jan 30 2013, 06:59 PM) *
Why is what Vick did any worse than what Ray Lewis did? Or Roethlisberger? Or several dozen other people?

If intelligence is measured by your off-field behavior, than I say Big Ben is the dumbest ever. Even if he is innocent of every charge, the fact that he puts himself in exposed situations like he does is telling, and quite frankly in my opinion, very stupid.

I know I never said any of these guys were saints. I don't disagree with you.
Rick
QUOTE (iggleslover49 @ Jan 30 2013, 09:44 PM) *
I won't be the least bit disappointed I PROMISE you. But guys are exaggerating just a little bit IMO bout what Vick can and can't do. In his time in Philly I've seen Vick show the ability to pass and run the ball effectively. Vick CAN be coached and still puts good yardage. Reduce the fumbles and you telling me you want him gone? Some guys are just flat out HATING

Well, 10+ years of playing in the NFL tells us he can't get rid of the turnovers.
Rick
QUOTE (iggleslover49 @ Jan 30 2013, 09:53 PM) *
Around HERE around the country side of SC dog fighting is totally a way of life. For some people it feeds their family. I've seen a guy who was raising atleast 10 pits, training them to fight. Those dogs killed wild hogs down here for fun.

So this is not just some "fabrication" this is real, not just here in the south, but all over the US. And please don't think I'm defending Vick, I'm just being real about.

I can't speak for SC as I've never lived there. All I can speak for is the areas where I've lived (quite a few) and what I've seen/known.

This could be going on in rural areas, I have no idea. At least you're speaking from EXPERIENCE unlike certain other people...

I get sick of other people talking about stuff like this like they KNOW this stuff is a FACT event though they've only read about it or heard it on ESPN.

But the bottom line is, regardless of how you're raised, it's a bad thing to fight dogs, torture dogs and kill them. Just like it's a bad thing to rape people, kill people, do drugs, etc. It is not an excuse.
BirdsWinBaby
QUOTE (iggleslover49 @ Jan 30 2013, 09:44 PM) *
Vick CAN be coached and still puts good yardage. Reduce the fumbles and you telling me you want him gone? Some guys are just flat out HATING



yea he CAN be coached...then the game starts. and he turns into "the same guy"

2001 - 2006 he averaged 9 fumbles a year

2010 - 2012 he averaged 10 fumbles a year

he could never play a full season BEFORE he went to prison...now that his brain is scrambled from concussions he will miss even more games...

oh wait...did he have a bad Oline all those other years too??

are you serious??

LOL
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Rick @ Jan 31 2013, 07:18 AM) *
I get sick of other people talking about stuff like this like they KNOW this stuff is a FACT event though they've only read about it or heard it on ESPN.

What the fuck are you talking about? I have Google. It's this neat little tool that allows you to find information you may not otherwise be privy to. I didn't witness the holocaust, but I'm certain it happened.

Here you go:
http://www.ocfl.net/Portals/0/Library/Anim...lStatistics.pdf

QUOTE
But the bottom line is, regardless of how you're raised, it's a bad thing to fight dogs, torture dogs and kill them. Just like it's a bad thing to rape people, kill people, do drugs, etc. It is not an excuse.

No shit it's bad, but if you're raised to not believe it's bad, then you might not see it that way. I think shooting a deer and following it as it bleeds out is fucked up, but lots of people think it's an acceptable way of life.

Everyone does drugs, it's just a matter of whether your drug of choice is acceptable to the mainstream.
MistahNickells
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 31 2013, 01:14 PM) *
What the fuck are you talking about? I have Google. It's this neat little tool that allows you to find information you may not otherwise be privy to. I didn't witness the holocaust, but I'm certain it happened.

Here you go:
http://www.ocfl.net/Portals/0/Library/Anim...lStatistics.pdf


No shit it's bad, but if you're raised to not believe it's bad, then you might not see it that way. I think shooting a deer and following it as it bleeds out is fucked up, but lots of people think it's an acceptable way of life.

Everyone does drugs, it's just a matter of whether your drug of choice is acceptable to the mainstream.

agree 100% good post
Rick
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 31 2013, 01:14 PM) *
What the fuck are you talking about? I have Google. It's this neat little tool that allows you to find information you may not otherwise be privy to. I didn't witness the holocaust, but I'm certain it happened.

Here you go:
http://www.ocfl.net/Portals/0/Library/Anim...lStatistics.pdf

And you just made my point for me... "I have Google." Right. Google is the real world....


QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 31 2013, 01:14 PM) *
No shit it's bad, but if you're raised to not believe it's bad, then you might not see it that way. I think shooting a deer and following it as it bleeds out is fucked up, but lots of people think it's an acceptable way of life.

Everyone does drugs, it's just a matter of whether your drug of choice is acceptable to the mainstream.

I don't care whether he was raised to believe it isn't bad--something you (AGAIN) have no idea about--it doesn't make it right and it doesn't give him a pass for what he did. If someone is molested as a child--and because of that believes it's not really wrong--then molests a child when they get older, they are still a bad person no matter what their upbringing is.

That's like saying it's ok for older people to think things like being prejudice and other bad things are ok because, "they grew up in a different time." BULLSHIT! It's wrong...PERIOD.

If someone does something bad to someone you care about I'd be shocked if you justified what they did because, "they were raised to not believe what they did was bad."

Pure billshit.
samaroo
QUOTE (Rick @ Jan 31 2013, 08:14 AM) *
I know I never said any of these guys were saints. I don't disagree with you.


Yeah, I'm just tired of Vick getting it worse than others. At least, that's my perception. And I'm definitely not a Vick lover. I've never thought he was a good QB, and thought he was a cocky thug since college. But the double standard he lives under (on and off the field...if Brady took the hits he did, defenders would be banished!) is ridiculous.

I just hate hypocrisy in any form.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Rick @ Feb 1 2013, 08:22 AM) *
And you just made my point for me... "I have Google." Right. Google is the real world....

Seriously, this is a sad and pathetic argument. If you don't think reading and researching is an appropriate substitute for witnessing something, I can't help you.

I suspect you're the same type that has no problem indoctrinating a child with the religious writings of desert nomads, but think that my research on the subject of dog fighting is invalid because I've never been to a dog fight.

QUOTE
I don't care whether he was raised to believe it isn't bad--something you (AGAIN) have no idea about--it doesn't make it right and it doesn't give him a pass for what he did. If someone is molested as a child--and because of that believes it's not really wrong--then molests a child when they get older, they are still a bad person no matter what their upbringing is.

Apples and oranges. Naturally, you failed to address my much more relavant comparison of hunting. Shooting a deer and cutting it's throat is a disgusting concept to me, but many people I grew up around did it regularly. The frigging meat industry in this country is absolutely revolting, but I don't consider myself a terrible person because I like burgers.

QUOTE
That's like saying it's ok for older people to think things like being prejudice and other bad things are ok because, "they grew up in a different time." BULLSHIT! It's wrong...PERIOD.

You couldn't be more oblivious. No one has said his actions were okay. He served multiple years in a federal prison as a result of them.

QUOTE
If someone does something bad to someone you care about I'd be shocked if you justified what they did because, "they were raised to not believe what they did was bad."

There are few things that would even be comparable to this conversation. Did Mike Vick do something bad to someone you care about? Did he do something bad to another human being? From what I understand, he participated in a barbaric ritual involving animals which he didn't value. People around the world do it will bullfighting, greyhound racing, etc.

The hope is that he has learned from his mistakes. Many open-minded people are capable of such things. I suspect you're not one of them.
iggleslover49
QUOTE (BirdsWinBaby @ Jan 31 2013, 08:53 AM) *
oh wait...did he have a bad Oline all those other years too?

Certainly not as good as the 2011 line. I think the oline scheme change from Juan to Mudd affected his play more than people would like to believe.
BirdsWinBaby
QUOTE (iggleslover49 @ Feb 3 2013, 02:30 PM) *
Certainly not as good as the 2011 line. I think the oline scheme change from Juan to Mudd affected his play more than people would like to believe.


his play affected his play more than people would like to believe
Rick
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Feb 1 2013, 10:47 AM) *
Seriously, this is a sad and pathetic argument. If you don't think reading and researching is an appropriate substitute for witnessing something, I can't help you.

Finding a PDF from somewhere on the Internet to back your argument is hardly what I'd call, "research".

QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Feb 1 2013, 10:47 AM) *
I suspect you're the same type that has no problem indoctrinating a child with the religious writings of desert nomads, but think that my research on the subject of dog fighting is invalid because I've never been to a dog fight.

As usual, you have no idea what you're talking about. You might want to leave your mother's basement from time to time to see what the real world is like.

The best part is you implying that I am in any way religious. I'm literally laughing at that notion.

As usual, you make assumptions about people and things you have absolutely no knowledge nor any experience with. You certainly are consistent, I'll give you that...


QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Feb 1 2013, 10:47 AM) *
Apples and oranges. Naturally, you failed to address my much more relavant comparison of hunting. Shooting a deer and cutting it's throat is a disgusting concept to me, but many people I grew up around did it regularly. The frigging meat industry in this country is absolutely revolting, but I don't consider myself a terrible person because I like burgers.

As you say, apples and oranges. The discussion isn't about hunting and, as usual, you try to deflect.

QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Feb 1 2013, 10:47 AM) *
You couldn't be more oblivious. No one has said his actions were okay. He served multiple years in a federal prison as a result of them.

And you couldn't be more oblivious, you might want to go back and read what I've typed again. Wait, I'll make it easier for you, I've been saying I'm sick of people (like you--added by me now, I didn't type that specifically before) making excuses for jerks like this. "He's a bad person but he wasn't brought up to think dog fighting isn't right..." Blah blah blah... If you do something--and it's wrong--there is no excuse for it. Period.

QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Feb 1 2013, 10:47 AM) *
There are few things that would even be comparable to this conversation. Did Mike Vick do something bad to someone you care about? Did he do something bad to another human being? From what I understand, he participated in a barbaric ritual involving animals which he didn't value. People around the world do it will bullfighting, greyhound racing, etc.

You're right, people around the world do it and I believe they are all wrong as well. So what's your point?

You asking whether he did something bad to another human being implies that you don't feel it's as bad (somehow) because what he did was to animals. If that's really what you believe then, honestly, there is truly no talking sense with you since that would mean you have absolutely none.

QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Feb 1 2013, 10:47 AM) *
The hope is that he has learned from his mistakes. Many open-minded people are capable of such things. I suspect you're not one of them.

LMAO! Again, you're making me laugh.

Right, so it's ok that he did those horrible things as long as he learned from his mistakes and apologized. Maybe YOU'RE the religious guy here...

I do have to say one thing about your ridiculousness, it is entertaining...
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Rick @ Feb 4 2013, 09:24 AM) *
Finding a PDF from somewhere on the Internet to back your argument is hardly what I'd call, "research".

Sorry I didn't provide you with a thesis. I looked at things in addition to that PDF. I figured that was a nice summary for you.

QUOTE
As usual, you have no idea what you're talking about. You might want to leave your mother's basement from time to time to see what the real world is like.

This couldn't be more ironic given your "if I didn't see it, it doesn't happen" mindset.

QUOTE
As you say, apples and oranges. The discussion isn't about hunting and, as usual, you try to deflect.

Deflect what? The discussion is about killing animals. You're picking and choosing when it is acceptable. To me, both acts are disgusting.

QUOTE
And you couldn't be more oblivious, you might want to go back and read what I've typed again. Wait, I'll make it easier for you, I've been saying I'm sick of people (like you--added by me now, I didn't type that specifically before) making excuses for jerks like this. "He's a bad person but he wasn't brought up to think dog fighting isn't right..." Blah blah blah... If you do something--and it's wrong--there is no excuse for it. Period.

You live in a fantasy world.

"If you do something--and it's wrong--there is no excuse for it. Period."

Okay, dude.

QUOTE
You're right, people around the world do it and I believe they are all wrong as well. So what's your point?

The point is that your opinion is meaningless. This isn't about some utopian paradise you live in. This is about the fact that everyone has different values and life experiences, which lead to different decisions. Your idea of right and wrong is irrelevant.

QUOTE
You asking whether he did something bad to another human being implies that you don't feel it's as bad (somehow) because what he did was to animals. If that's really what you believe then, honestly, there is truly no talking sense with you since that would mean you have absolutely none.

I love animals, but I can recognize that some people don't value them the same way as me.

If you're child was hit by a car, it would draw the same reaction as having your dog hit by a car?

QUOTE
Right, so it's ok that he did those horrible things as long as he learned from his mistakes and apologized. Maybe YOU'RE the religious guy here...

Well, my fellow non-believers are typically open-minded and understanding regarding the differences between fellow human beings. Everything isn't black and white. I live in the gray area. Not in some good vs. bad/right vs. wrong fantasy land that you think you're living in.

I've never said it was okay that he did those things. I've said that he has served his time and seems to have learned from his mistakes.

If ignorance is bliss, you must be the happiest guy I know. Good luck to you, man. This conversation has run it's course.
iggleslover49
QUOTE (BirdsWinBaby @ Feb 3 2013, 11:30 PM) *
his play affected his play more than people would like to believe

The "best QB in NFL history",Tom Brady,couldn't play behind THIS line and to dispute that is pure ignorance
Rick
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Feb 4 2013, 11:23 AM) *
Sorry I didn't provide you with a thesis. I looked at things in addition to that PDF. I figured that was a nice summary for you.

Oh, so I should do what you do and act like I know everything about what you do. Gotcha...

QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Feb 4 2013, 11:23 AM) *
Deflect what? The discussion is about killing animals. You're picking and choosing when it is acceptable. To me, both acts are disgusting.

Uh, the discussion is not about killing animals, rather, about someone who killed them. A little different there.

Oh, and I never said I supported hunting (or didn't for that matter--just more of your usual thinking you know everything about everyone).

And please, quote where I have been, "picking and choosing when it (killing animals) is acceptable. I'd love to see where I mentioned anything like that.

QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Feb 4 2013, 11:23 AM) *
You live in a fantasy world.

I just spit water after reading that. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black...

QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Feb 4 2013, 11:23 AM) *
"If you do something--and it's wrong--there is no excuse for it. Period."

Okay, dude.

And this is where you and I differ. You're looking for excuses for when people do something wrong. I am just accepting the fact that they did something wrong.

QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Feb 4 2013, 11:23 AM) *
The point is that your opinion is meaningless. This isn't about some utopian paradise you live in. This is about the fact that everyone has different values and life experiences, which lead to different decisions. Your idea of right and wrong is irrelevant.

And you can say the same to yourself. Your opinion is also meaningless. This is a message board after all. However, my idea of what is right and wrong may be irrelevant to you but it is not to me just the way your idea is relevant to you but not me. I know, it's hard to understand for you.

QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Feb 4 2013, 11:23 AM) *
I love animals, but I can recognize that some people don't value them the same way as me.

As can I, however, there's a difference in not valuing something and destroying them. Vick went to great lengths to do such horrible acts. It wasn't like he just set up a little area to fight dogs in his backyard, he set up kennels and various other thing to raise and train the dogs. He also (essentially) built a business with various friends doing this. And he also tortured and killed multiple dogs. I guess you forgot about all of that. I guess his, "My bad!" is good enough for you but it's not for me.

QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Feb 4 2013, 11:23 AM) *
If you're child was hit by a car, it would draw the same reaction as having your dog hit by a car?

Huh? And that's relevant to this discussion how?

QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Feb 4 2013, 11:23 AM) *
Well, my fellow non-believers are typically open-minded and understanding regarding the differences between fellow human beings. Everything isn't black and white. I live in the gray area. Not in some good vs. bad/right vs. wrong fantasy land that you think you're living in.

I really believe it is you who live in the fantasy world. I'm looking at reality. Bad people tend to do bad things. Good people tend to do good things. Yes, there is some crossover, however, when someone does what he did to the extent he did, I cannot, in any way shape or form, call him a good person. You can call that black and white all you want. you can keep making excuses for how he was raised--something you nor I know nothing about, btw--but it doesn't change the fact that he is a bad person.

QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Feb 4 2013, 11:23 AM) *
I've never said it was okay that he did those things. I've said that he has served his time and seems to have learned from his mistakes.

Oh, so it's ok for someone to do such bad things and say, "My bad!" and it makes it all ok....

QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Feb 4 2013, 11:23 AM) *
If ignorance is bliss, you must be the happiest guy I know. Good luck to you, man. This conversation has run it's course.

I think you need to learn a little about what ignorance means because I should have said this to you long ago. You stick your head in the sand about these kinds of issues all of the time, making excuses over and over. While I talk about what we know about (i.e.. fact) and don't try to make excuses for people who do bad things. But I'm the one who's ignorant of what's happening. Right, gotcha...

It's tough to call it a conversation but yes, it has run its course....
IronAnkle_5x
(Hey its a new guy) Vick has been terrible for a while and the thought of waiting to cut him seems so overdue... just let him go and start foles.
BirdsWinBaby
QUOTE (iggleslover49 @ Feb 4 2013, 09:32 PM) *
The "best QB in NFL history",Tom Brady,couldn't play behind THIS line and to dispute that is pure ignorance



oh and 2011 you say he had his best Oline ever and what was the excuse then? player lockout?? didnt come to TC as the starter?? too many lights in the stadium??

oh wait....they changed the Oline coach.

he must be snakebit.....EL OH EL
iggleslover49
QUOTE (BirdsWinBaby @ Feb 6 2013, 07:35 AM) *
oh and 2011 you say he had his best Oline ever and what was the excuse then? player lockout?? didnt come to TC as the starter?? too many lights in the stadium??

oh wait....they changed the Oline coach.

he must be snakebit.....EL OH EL

Yes that's what I'm saying. Mudd's scheme calls for smaller lineman to attack, and required the ball to be outta there quickly. Juan's scheme was the exact opposite and gave QB's plenty of time to hit djax deep. It's really not that tough to understand if you understand football.

Mudd scheme gave QBs a small pocket to operate out of. Juan scheme gave qbs the whole backfield to operate out of which was why mcnabb and vick had success making plays out of the pocket.

All schemes aside, 2011 definitely was vick's most TALENTED oline
BirdsWinBaby
QUOTE (iggleslover49 @ Feb 6 2013, 12:59 PM) *
Yes that's what I'm saying. Mudd's scheme calls for smaller lineman to attack, and required the ball to be outta there quickly. Juan's scheme was the exact opposite and gave QB's plenty of time to hit djax deep. It's really not that tough to understand if you understand football.

Mudd scheme gave QBs a small pocket to operate out of. Juan scheme gave qbs the whole backfield to operate out of which was why mcnabb and vick had success making plays out of the pocket.

All schemes aside, 2011 definitely was vick's most TALENTED oline


So the jump set made Vick have to decide faster eh? Then why didn't Vick2.0 just do that? The old Vick is the guy who would snap the ball and wait to see what happened. The old Vick is the guy who held the ball too long because ( not being able to read a defense) he didn't have any idea where the open guy would be until he was open

Vick had enough time in the pocket more oft than not
Eyrie
QUOTE (IronAnkle_5x @ Feb 6 2013, 07:28 AM) *
(Hey its a new guy) Vick has been terrible for a while and the thought of waiting to cut him seems so overdue... just let him go and start foles.

Welcome!

You may be new but you've already shown a firm grasp of what we don't need under centre, so post more often please.

I'm not 100% sold on Foles, but I do believe we've seen enough to give him the opportunity to be the starter in 2013,
Phits
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Feb 6 2013, 02:37 PM) *
I'm not 100% sold on Foles, but I do believe we've seen enough to give him the opportunity to be the starter in 2013,

If by 'opportunity' you mean give him a chance to battle for the #1 spot, have at it.
iggleslover49
QUOTE (BirdsWinBaby @ Feb 6 2013, 01:59 PM) *
So the jump set made Vick have to decide faster eh? Then why didn't Vick2.0 just do that? The old Vick is the guy who would snap the ball and wait to see what happened. The old Vick is the guy who held the ball too long because ( not being able to read a defense) he didn't have any idea where the open guy would be until he was open

Vick had enough time in the pocket more oft than not

The old Vick wouldn't take too long to do anything, he'd just take off and run. And das what guys aren't understanding. Vick taking a long time in the pocket IS "Vick 2.0".

Like I said, even Tom Brady couldn't throw behind the 2012 oline. I remember watching nfl playbook and they were talking about our piss poor oline. On alot of the plays Vick had 1.25 seconds before a defender was in his face. That's not even enough time for guys to run their routes much less Vick read the defense and make a play. Sometimes AR would call max protect to counter the blitz, only guys running routes were Djax and maclin, everyone else is blocking; the only problem is the defense didn't blitz on that play, instead it was a 3 man rush with everyone else dropping back in coverage. Now at that point what would YOU do? Try to make a quick decision and throw into triple coverage? INT...
BirdsWinBaby
QUOTE (iggleslover49 @ Feb 7 2013, 06:00 PM) *
The old Vick wouldn't take too long to do anything, he'd just take off and run. And das what guys aren't understanding. Vick taking a long time in the pocket IS "Vick 2.0".

Like I said, even Tom Brady couldn't throw behind the 2012 oline. I remember watching nfl playbook and they were talking about our piss poor oline. On alot of the plays Vick had 1.25 seconds before a defender was in his face. That's not even enough time for guys to run their routes much less Vick read the defense and make a play. Sometimes AR would call max protect to counter the blitz, only guys running routes were Djax and maclin, everyone else is blocking; the only problem is the defense didn't blitz on that play, instead it was a 3 man rush with everyone else dropping back in coverage. Now at that point what would YOU do? Try to make a quick decision and throw into triple coverage? INT...



i have the NFL rewind package so i can watch any game i want back to 2009. i loaded up a 2011 game (vs 49ers) just to see the jump set being beat over and over and poor Mike Vick having no time in the pocket and needing quick decisions. you can click on specific plays to watch so you dont need to watch the whole thing

the broadcast crew said several times after a play that Vick had all day to throw the ball and had no pressure on him

sometimes he got chased out of the pocket in 2010, sometimes he had time to throw. the same is true of 2011 when you say he had his best line ever.

if you have an example of games in 2011 where Vick consistently had "1.25 seconds" to throw the ball, tell me which they were and i will watch the plays. otherwise its like i said...

he had plenty of time more oft than not
iggleslover49
QUOTE (BirdsWinBaby @ Feb 7 2013, 07:37 PM) *
i have the NFL rewind package so i can watch any game i want back to 2009. i loaded up a 2011 game (vs 49ers) just to see the jump set being beat over and over and poor Mike Vick having no time in the pocket and needing quick decisions. you can click on specific plays to watch so you dont need to watch the whole thing

the broadcast crew said several times after a play that Vick had all day to throw the ball and had no pressure on him

sometimes he got chased out of the pocket in 2010, sometimes he had time to throw. the same is true of 2011 when you say he had his best line ever.

if you have an example of games in 2011 where Vick consistently had "1.25 seconds" to throw the ball, tell me which they were and i will watch the plays. otherwise its like i said...

he had plenty of time more oft than not

Good for you. Watch those games and watch the falcons games and you will notice a difference Vick.

I wasn't talking about 2011, I clearly 2012 oline. yes did said the 2011 was his best oline. And by saying best I mean talented starting oline. 2010 was a better pass protecting oline.

Watch you rewinds of the 2012 oline. And you will see what I mean when I say he had 1.25 seconds to get the ball out. I'm not gonna sit here act like I have some nfl rewind package. But I CAN tell you that I have nfl network and have watch "NFL Playbook". On atleast one episode they were talking about our oline. And play after play after play Vick had less than 2 seconds to get rid of the ball or he was gonna get hit. Guys were blitzing and collapsing the pocket on numerous occasions and alot of the time blitzers were getting back there free even. If not, the corner blitz from the slot was getting there UNTOUCHED. This is a problem with coaching, both play calling and lack of adjustments by Mudd.

Matter of fact I got a game for you; And even in 2011. Check out that the Minnesota Vikings game, and you will see Antoine Winfield in the slot, Punishing Vick all game. Not only is he getting through UNTOUCHED, but Ried doesn't even try to adjust the play calling to counter it. Mudd doesn't even try to adjust the protections to counter it either.

Now that I think about it. 2011 was a good year for the running game, but I remember RG being a revolving door because those guys were getting beat. Watkins was consistently getting beat like a drum in pass pro; and I'm talking about completely confused and letting guys through UNTOUCHED.

Or even go back and watch the tape on the Cardinals game and watch how many times Daryl Washington comes free, right up the middle.

Blame Vick all you want, but the OL has plenty to do with Vick's failure. And AGAIN even some of the best QB's in the league, couldn't pass behind this oline(2012 oline)

PS: I could care less about what the broadcast crew has to say. One minute they are saying how great you are. The very next play they may change their mind. I've even heard em flat out get the players mixed up. Don't ever include what they say into an argument, watch the game and come up with your own conclusions.
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