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mcnabbulous
Oh hell no.
*apparently it happened Monday according to Reuben Frank.
mcnabbulous
Did anyone else hear this clown suggest the Seahawks kick a field goal and attempt an onsides kick when when they were down by 6 late?

On a side note: crazy game.
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 13 2013, 04:10 PM) *
Did anyone else hear this clown suggest the Seahawks kick a field goal and attempt an onsides kick when when they were down by 6 late?

On a side note: crazy game.

wow...what a game. Seattle has a whole lot to build on for next season
nephillymike
They will be building without our next head coach!
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 13 2013, 04:15 PM) *
wow...what a game. Seattle has a whole lot to build on for next season


Wilson might be the most exciting young QB I've seen. Never thought that size would translate. Kudos to the Seahawks for unexpectedly drafting him. Apparently that's who Reid wanted, then we settled for Foles 9 picks later. Story of our lives wink.gif
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 13 2013, 04:20 PM) *
Wilson might be the most exciting young QB I've seen. Never thought that size would translate. Kudos to the Seahawks for unexpectedly drafting him. Apparently that's who Reid wanted, then we settled for Foles 9 picks later. Story of our lives wink.gif

I also think Colin Kap. from SF can make an argument for most exciting young QB.
JaxEagle
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jan 13 2013, 04:19 PM) *
They will be building without our next head coach!

I hope you are right!
JaxEagle
No to Billick!
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (JaxEagle @ Jan 14 2013, 12:06 PM) *
No to Billick!

If we hire Billick, there is not one person on this board that will be able to convince me that firing Reid was the right decision. I was open to change after this season, but change resulting in Billick would be an absolute joke.

He's awful. He's a mediocre coach and possibly the most annoying voice in the NFL. I lived in Baltimore during his tenure there. If you think Andy thought he was smarter than everyone else...you're in for a world of hurt.
TGryn
He does have one of these:
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (TGryn @ Jan 14 2013, 01:05 PM) *
He does have one of these:

He's awful. That offensive genius had 1 offense that ever ranked in the top-10.
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 14 2013, 01:07 PM) *
He's awful. That offensive genius had 1 offense that ever ranked in the top-10.

Tony Dungy was a defensive mastermind when he joined the Colts, yet they never had a defense worth anything.

Billick is not awful. He is a very sound coach. Coaches evolve and become more than what they were known for. Considering that he never had a (real) QB to work with, keeping the Ravens competitive is more of a feat than he gets credit for.

QUOTE
He had a 85–67 record in nine seasons (1999–2007) with the team, including 5–3 in the playoffs. He won a Super Bowl title.

Assistant coaches under Brian Billick that became NFL head coaches:
Jack Del Rio, Jacksonville Jaguars (2003–2011)
Marvin Lewis, Cincinnati Bengals (2003–present)
Mike Nolan, San Francisco 49ers (2005–2008)
Rex Ryan, New York Jets (2009–present)
Mike Singletary, San Francisco 49ers (2008–2010)
Mike Smith, Atlanta Falcons (2008–present)


I would welcome him as our next HC.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 14 2013, 01:24 PM) *
Tony Dungy was a defensive mastermind when he joined the Colts, yet they never had a defense worth anything.

They were 2nd in points allowed in 2005 and 1st in points allowed in their SB season. Then 7th the following season.

QUOTE
Billick is not awful. He is a very sound coach. Coaches evolve and become more than what they were known for. Considering that he never had a (real) QB to work with, keeping the Ravens competitive is more of a feat than he gets credit for.

With the exception of 2000 and 2006, his career record was 55-57. This is despite the fact that he was working with possibly the best front office in football. He proved incapable of developing a QB.

And they were 0-2 in playoff games his final 6 season. But yeah, he'd be an upgrade over Andy.

Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 14 2013, 01:39 PM) *
They were 2nd in points allowed in 2005 and 1st in points allowed in their SB season. Then 7th the following season.

Your stats are deceiving. The Colts defense was a sieve. In particular their run D made ours look like the Ravens.

QUOTE
With the exception of 2000 and 2006, his career record was 55-57.

I am not sure why you would remove part of his stats, especially considering one of the years you removed was a SB championship. Letès see if the game works both ways:

If you remove his 2005 and 2007 seasons his record is 69-43.

QUOTE
He proved incapable of developing a QB.

How was Andy at developing QB's. Please note the degradation in performance once their natural talents began to erode.

QUOTE
And they were 0-2 in playoff games his final 6 season. But yeah, he'd be an upgrade over Andy.

since you are using selective data:

Andy`s post season record was 0-2 in his last 4 seasons.
Andy`s post SB record is 66-61-1
Andy`s conference championship record is 1-4
Andy`s SB record is 0-1

mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 14 2013, 02:04 PM) *
Your stats are deceiving. The Colts defense was a sieve. In particular their run D made ours look like the Ravens.

My stats are deceiving? I used points allowed for the entire season. They can't be much more concrete than that. Would it help if I pointed out that they were 3rd in yards in 2007 too?

You're the one that tried to compare Billick's offensive futility with Dungy's defenses. And you were wrong.

QUOTE
I am not sure why you would remove part of his stats, especially considering one of the years you removed was a SB championship. Letès see if the game works both ways:

If you remove his 2005 and 2007 seasons his record is 69-43.

My point is that if you remove two seasons in which his defenses were all world, he was an average coach. Check that...he was an average coach.

QUOTE
How was Andy at developing QB's. Please note the degradation in performance once their natural talents began to erode.

Are you fucking kidding me, Phits? Donovan did develop into a very good QB. Yes, once he let himself become fat, he was no longer effective. Andy also developed and traded AJ Feeley, developed and traded Kolb, and got more out of Vick than anyone else.

QUOTE
since you are using selective data:

Andy`s post season record was 0-2 in his last 4 seasons.
Andy`s post SB record is 66-61-1
Andy`s conference championship record is 1-4
Andy`s SB record is 0-1

Which is exactly my point. You bitched about it the entire time, but would be okay with a lesser guy.

If we were fine with firing one of the best coaches in franchise history, we should not be content with settling for a guy that is proven to be a lesser coach.
HOUSEoPAIN
Billick isn't anywhere near anyone's top choices here, but I would be more than welcome to giving him a chance.
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 14 2013, 02:21 PM) *
My stats are deceiving? I used points allowed for the entire season. They can't be much more concrete than that. Would it help if I pointed out that they were 3rd in yards in 2007 too?

You're the one that tried to compare Billick's offensive futility with Dungy's defenses. And you were wrong.

Points allowed on its own is not a good indication of how well your D is playing. Try again.

QUOTE
Are you fucking kidding me, Phits? Donovan did develop into a very good QB. Yes, once he let himself become fat, he was no longer effective. Andy also developed and traded AJ Feeley, developed and traded Kolb, and got more out of Vick than anyone else.

How well did any of these QB's do outside of Andy's loving arms? If that is an indication of "developing good QB's", there is a slew of coaches who have developed good QB's. For the record, my impression of developing a good QB is not to make them one dimensional. When that 'variable' is no longer a factor you're stuck with the remnants of what could have been.

McNabb - never developed intermediate game.
AJ Feeley - smoke and mirrors, only effective in Andy's system.
Kolb - Bust
Vick - One hit wonder. Once he lost a step and his legs stopped being a factor he reverted back into a running back.


QUOTE
Which is exactly my point. You bitched about it the entire time, but would be okay with a lesser guy.

If we were fine with firing one of the best coaches in franchise history, we should not be content with settling for a guy that is proven to be a lesser coach.

Billick was the HC for one of the greatest defenses in history. His FO never provided a viable option at QB. Billick was smart enough to know that he had to rely on his D, because they were a strength. He knew his offense couldn't shoulder the load, so he made it his job to foster the D. He won a Superbowl. He is not a lesser coach.
Rick
QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 14 2013, 05:26 PM) *
He won a Superbowl. He is not a lesser coach.

Quite frankly, he's the opposite of a lesser coach because he HAS won a SB.

Not that I'm all excited about him being the HC for the Eagles but it's awful hard to look at his track record and say he is a bad coach. Bad coaches don't win SBs...even with all world defenses.
Phits
QUOTE (Rick @ Jan 14 2013, 07:19 PM) *
Quite frankly, he's the opposite of a lesser coach because he HAS won a SB.

Not that I'm all excited about him being the HC for the Eagles but it's awful hard to look at his track record and say he is a bad coach. Bad coaches don't win SBs...even with all world defenses.

Don't forget that he was never given a good QB to work with.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 14 2013, 06:26 PM) *
Points allowed on its own is not a good indication of how well your D is playing. Try again.




I explicitly pointed out that they finished 3rd in yards.

So your argument is that first in points against and 3rd in yards allowed is not sufficient evidence to tell whether their defense was successful.

QUOTE
How well did any of these QB's do outside of Andy's loving arms?

Holy shit, dude. I really can't even go any further with you regarding this conversation. They were successful here but not elsewhere, so Andy was the problem...

QUOTE
Billick was the HC for one of the greatest defenses in history.

And had no impact on their greatness.

QUOTE
His FO never provided a viable option at QB.

He hand picked all of his QB's. I lived in Baltimore at the time. I'm sure of this.

QUOTE
Billick was smart enough to know that he had to rely on his D, because they were a strength. He knew his offense couldn't shoulder the load, so he made it his job to foster the D. He won a Superbowl. He is not a lesser coach.

Yeah, that's what he did...
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Rick @ Jan 14 2013, 08:19 PM) *
Quite frankly, he's the opposite of a lesser coach because he HAS won a SB.

It's no different than the QB argument. Trent Dilfer is not a better QB than Dan Marino, either.

QUOTE
Not that I'm all excited about him being the HC for the Eagles but it's awful hard to look at his track record and say he is a bad coach. Bad coaches don't win SBs...even with all world defenses.

Yes, I shouldn't have been so hyperbolic. He is not an awful coach. He's an average coach. And absolutely not an upgrade from the coach that people on this board have been bitching about for years.
Rick
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 14 2013, 07:42 PM) *
It's no different than the QB argument. Trent Dilfer is not a better QB than Dan Marino, either.


But we're not talking about QBs here now are we? It IS a much different discussion. A QB does what he's told to do. The coach tells him what to do. The QB is responsible for leading the offense. The coach is responsible for building a team, building a gameplan, leading the WHOLE team, taking the blame when it doesn't work out and many other things.

QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 14 2013, 07:42 PM) *
Yes, I shouldn't have been so hyperbolic. He is not an awful coach. He's an average coach. And absolutely not an upgrade from the coach that people on this board have been bitching about for years.

Say what you want about him but he won a SB without a great QB (which was pointed out). An, "average," coach doesn't do that in the NFL.

Andy had a great QB for (at least) part of his tenure here and never won a SB. You're the one who keeps saying a great QB is required for making a run yet, he won without one.

You can talk about the stats of the defense or the offense but, at the end of the day, only one thing matters...winning a SB. Andy didn't do it and BB did. So the, "average," coach won a SB yet Andy--your favorite guy--has not even though he had much more to work with than BB did.

Would BB have won with the Eagles? I have no idea. But your reason for hating this guy makes no sense when you so obviously love Andy. BB has accomplished more in the NFL than Andy. There is no arguing that, the records don't lie. At the end of the day two things matter with a HC--win/loss record and (more importantly) how many SBs they win. Andy has the nice win/loss record but not the SB win. BB has a nice win/loss record and a SB win. There is no contest.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Rick @ Jan 15 2013, 08:07 AM) *
But we're not talking about QBs here now are we? It IS a much different discussion. A QB does what he's told to do. The coach tells him what to do. The QB is responsible for leading the offense.
And Billick regularly told his QB to do things that didn't work. Like completing less than 50% of his passes in the SB. BB was dubbed an offensive genius, but his offenses regularly sucked.
QUOTE
The coach is responsible for building a team
Well, it should be the GM's job, and in Billick's case it was.
QUOTE
building a gameplan
Marvin Lewis was responsible for the defensive gameplan which only allowed 7 points in the SB. They also didn't face a team that was quite possibly cheating and able to identify every blitz package pre snap.
QUOTE
leading the WHOLE team, taking the blame when it doesn't work out and many other things.
Few people have done these things better than Reid.

QUOTE
Say what you want about him but he won a SB without a great QB (which was pointed out). An, "average," coach doesn't do that in the NFL.
Say what you want about good coaches, but they can typically get jobs coaching in the NFL. Our lowly franchise is the only one that has given BB the time of day in years.

QUOTE
Andy had a great QB for (at least) part of his tenure here and never won a SB.
Donovan was very good, but compared to his peers he was not in the great class. 2004 is the only season you could make that argument. We came damn close to a SB and there were countless reasons we didn't win it all. The least of the problems was AR.
QUOTE
You're the one who keeps saying a great QB is required for making a run yet, he won without one.
No, I have said you need one since the illegal contact rules have become more strict, which happened in 2004. His SB is a relic from day's past.

QUOTE
You can talk about the stats of the defense or the offense but, at the end of the day, only one thing matters...winning a SB.
Not all seasons or SB's are made alike. BB's team, on the back of a defense that he had little to do with, beat an inferior team. We were defeated by what was arguably the best of a dynasty Patriots group led by a top-5 QB of all-time.
QUOTE
Andy didn't do it and BB did. So the, "average," coach won a SB yet Andy--your favorite guy--has not even though he had much more to work with than BB did.
Much more to work with? Than what most people agree is a top-3 defense of all time? Right...
QUOTE
BB has accomplished more in the NFL than Andy. There is no arguing that, the records don't lie. At the end of the day two things matter with a HC--win/loss record and (more importantly) how many SBs they win. Andy has the nice win/loss record but not the SB win. BB has a nice win/loss record and a SB win. There is no contest.

BB hasn't gotten a job offer since he was fired 4+ years ago. Andy was available for about 48 hours. The rest of the league agrees with me. They don't let one game fool them.

Rick
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 15 2013, 09:59 AM) *
And Billick regularly told his QB to do things that didn't work. Like completing less than 50% of his passes in the SB. BB was dubbed an offensive genius, but his offenses regularly sucked.

Sounds like you're more bitter about someone calling him a genius. But, the bottom line is, regardless of what percentage of passes his QB completed in the SB, he still won it. Your beloved McNabb completed 64% of his passes in the SB and lost. I'll take <50% and a win over >60% and a loss ANY day and twice on Sundays!

QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 15 2013, 09:59 AM) *
Well, it should be the GM's job, and in Billick's case it was.

And the HC has NOTHING to do with building the team...

QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 15 2013, 09:59 AM) *
Marvin Lewis was responsible for the defensive gameplan which only allowed 7 points in the SB.

And the offense didn't score any points right?

QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 15 2013, 09:59 AM) *
They also didn't face a team that was quite possibly cheating and able to identify every blitz package pre snap. Few people have done these things better than Reid.

Really!!?? You're going to cry that the Patriots were cheating!!?? Until now, your arguments on this subject have bordered on insanity. You just crossed that line...

QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 15 2013, 09:59 AM) *
Say what you want about good coaches, but they can typically get jobs coaching in the NFL. Our lowly franchise is the only one that has given BB the time of day in years.

And how much interest has he shown in coming back? I don't know--I'm guessing you don't either. So this point is moot.

QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 15 2013, 09:59 AM) *
Donovan was very good, but compared to his peers he was not in the great class. 2004 is the only season you could make that argument. We came damn close to a SB and there were countless reasons we didn't win it all. The least of the problems was AR.
No, I have said you need one since the illegal contact rules have become more strict, which happened in 2004. His SB is a relic from day's past.

Right, your golden boy Reid had NOTHING to do with the loss... But, bottom line is he DID lose. You seem to forget that.

QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 15 2013, 09:59 AM) *
Not all seasons or SB's are made alike. BB's team, on the back of a defense that he had little to do with, beat an inferior team. We were defeated by what was arguably the best of a dynasty Patriots group led by a top-5 QB of all-time.
Much more to work with? Than what most people agree is a top-3 defense of all time? Right...

Subjective argument at best. Comparing teams from different times has always made little to no sense. And it's about the weakest argument (besides your cheating argument earlier) you've made.

QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 15 2013, 09:59 AM) *
BB hasn't gotten a job offer since he was fired 4+ years ago. Andy was available for about 48 hours. The rest of the league agrees with me. They don't let one game fool them.

Again, this has no relevance to the argument. Bottom line is BB has a SB win--something not many coaches have--and your favorite coach has ZERO even though he had plenty of opportunity to win one with the teams he had. Were they perfect? Not at all but they certainly had more going for them than the Ravens did when BB won. You yourself have said they had little to no offense. We had very good offense and a very good defense but your boy Andy couldn't close the deal.

Sorry, it's no contest...
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 15 2013, 09:59 AM) *
BB hasn't gotten a job offer since he was fired 4+ years ago. Andy was available for about 48 hours. The rest of the league agrees with me. They don't let one game fool them.

There you go twisting facts to suit your argument. How do you know whether BB was contacted regarding any coaching vacancy? That's like me saying Andy took the first offer he got, because he knew there would be no more coming.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Rick @ Jan 15 2013, 01:53 PM) *
they certainly had more going for them than the Ravens did when BB won. You yourself have said they had little to no offense. We had very good offense and a very good defense but your boy Andy couldn't close the deal.


THEY HAD A TOP-3 DEFENSE OF ALL-TIME. They had little to no offense because their offensive staff, led by their head coach, had one of the least creative offenses I've ever seen.
And regarding the Patriots, they were 3-0 in SuperBowls prior to Spygate. They haven't won one since. It's not a coincidence.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 15 2013, 02:09 PM) *
There you go twisting facts to suit your argument. How do you know whether BB was contacted regarding any coaching vacancy? That's like me saying Andy took the first offer he got, because he knew there would be no more coming.


You're right, I don't know for certain. I just know that he has not coached since. And you never, with the exception of our interview, hear about him meeting with or turning down offers. Agents tend to put that information out there.
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 15 2013, 01:33 PM) *
THEY HAD A TOP-3 DEFENSE OF ALL-TIME. They had little to no offense because their offensive staff, led by their head coach, had one of the least creative offenses I've ever seen.

We also had an All-World defense. Buddy Ryan's Eagles never won a playoff game. The difference is that we had talent on the offensive side and couldn't close the deal.

QUOTE
And regarding the Patriots, they were 3-0 in SuperBowls prior to Spygate. They haven't won one since. It's not a coincidence.

Their 98 wins in the last 8 seasons (since the 2004 season) suggests that it is a coincidence. No need for sour grapes.
Rick
QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 15 2013, 03:54 PM) *
We also had an All-World defense. Buddy Ryan's Eagles never won a playoff game. The difference is that we had talent on the offensive side and couldn't close the deal.


Their 98 wins in the last 8 seasons (since the 2004 season) suggests that it is a coincidence. No need for sour grapes.

Thank you. Beat me to it.

Andy had a few good defenses during his stay in Philly as well. Still didn't win a SB...
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 15 2013, 04:54 PM) *
We also had an All-World defense.

We had an all-world defense when? In the early 90's? Or Under Reid? 2002 was definitely our best, but no one would mention us in the class as the 2000 Ravens. They gave up the fewest points in history. We nearly gave up a TD more.

QUOTE
Buddy Ryan's Eagles never won a playoff game.

Once again, I'm confused if you're talking about the Ryan era or Reid, but this should tell you how incompetent Ryan was as a HC. The 91 Eagles were the best defense in NFL history and we couldn't manage a single playoff victory. Yet people say he was better than Reid.

QUOTE
The difference is that we had talent on the offensive side and couldn't close the deal.

I'll reiterate my confusion about the era you're referring to.

QUOTE
Their 98 wins in the last 8 seasons (since the 2004 season) suggests that it is a coincidence.

There is little I appreciate more than when you make my point for me. They have racked up absurd amounts of wins since 2004 and have zero titles to show for it. Which tells me a few things. 1) Winning SB's is extremely difficult and requires more than just being the better team or better coached team. 2) There is something different about their past two SB's than the previous three. The past two have come after Spygate.

QUOTE
No need for sour grapes.

I don't have sour grapes, I just have little doubt that the Patriots took unethical measures to give themselves an advantage in the SB. Besides, you're the one that regularly refers to him as "Belicheat."
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Rick @ Jan 15 2013, 06:10 PM) *
Thank you. Beat me to it.

Andy had a few good defenses during his stay in Philly as well. Still didn't win a SB...

Yeah, all Billick had to work with was a "good defense."

That's apples to apples...
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 15 2013, 05:48 PM) *
There is little I appreciate more than when you make my point for me. They have racked up absurd amounts of wins since 2004 and have zero titles to show for it. Which tells me a few things. 1) Winning SB's is extremely difficult and requires more than just being the better team or better coached team. 2) There is something different about their past two SB's than the previous three. The past two have come after Spygate.


I don't have sour grapes, I just have little doubt that the Patriots took unethical measures to give themselves an advantage in the SB. Besides, you're the one that regularly refers to him as "Belicheat."

Winning SB's is very difficult. It requires the right combination of talent, coaching and luck. The fact that they have represented in 5 SB's over the last decade demonstrates their ability to find that right combination.

All teams cheat, it's just a question of whether they get caught or not. Belicheat got caught because his l'il boy toy (Mangina) had the same sour grapes that you apparently have.

QUOTE
I'll reiterate my confusion about the era you're referring to.

Yes, I'm sure you are confused. You demonstrate this every time you call AR 'great'.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 15 2013, 08:30 PM) *
Winning SB's is very difficult. It requires the right combination of talent, coaching and luck.

This is really what it comes down to, which I've been saying all along. When we've had the right combination of the first three things, we haven't really been very lucky. Which is why saying one guy is inferior to another based on one outcome is ludicrous.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 15 2013, 09:59 AM) *
And Billick regularly told his QB to do things that didn't work. Like completing less than 50% of his passes in the SB. BB was dubbed an offensive genius, but his offenses regularly sucked.



Really? I seem to remember a certain team that he was the OC for that was a record setting offense with Randall Cunningham at the wheel.....and his offense was in the top 10 in points AND yards for 4 of his 5 years at the helm there.....next?

In Baltimore he took over a team that was built on defense and he played the hand that he was dealt. The fact that he won it with Dilfer and you dismiss it out of hand is even more bizarre then you embracing whichever "league source" rumor you think fits you view of the FO.

Very strange
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jan 15 2013, 11:28 PM) *
Really? I seem to remember a certain team that he was the OC for that was a record setting offense with Randall Cunningham at the wheel.....and his offense was in the top 10 in points AND yards for 4 of his 5 years at the helm there.....next?

Yes, they were great with Moss, Carter, and Robert Smith in '98. The league didn't have an answer for Moss in his rookie year.

You have to wonder how much Dennis Green impacted that greatness and how much it was Billick. They did just fine prior to Billick taking over OC duties.

He spent almost a decade in Baltimore and had one team rank in the top-10 (8th) in scoring. On average (and yes, I looked it up) they finished 17th.

QUOTE
In Baltimore he took over a team that was built on defense and he played the hand that he was dealt.

Right, the beginning of his tenure in Baltimore was built on defense. The fact that his offense never improved is the problem.

QUOTE
The fact that he won it with Dilfer and you dismiss it out of hand is even more bizarre then you embracing whichever "league source" rumor you think fits you view of the FO.

Very strange

I am not dismissing anything. It was an excellent team, built on one of the greatest defenses to ever set foot on the field. They also had one of the best tight ends of all time, one of the best left tackles of all time, and one (actually two) of the better running backs of all time. To suggest they had no offensive talent is deceiving.

Billick was incapable of building an offense in a decade, which was supposed to be his strength. That's a fact. He was fortunate to coach one of the greatest defenses of all-time and it resulted in a SB. The rest of his resume suggests he's nothing more than an average coach.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 15 2013, 11:06 PM) *
Yes, they were great with Moss, Carter, and Robert Smith in '98. The league didn't have an answer for Moss in his rookie year.

You have to wonder how much Dennis Green impacted that greatness and how much it was Billick. They did just fine prior to Billick taking over OC duties.

He spent almost a decade in Baltimore and had one team rank in the top-10 (8th) in scoring. On average (and yes, I looked it up) they finished 17th.


Right, the beginning of his tenure in Baltimore was built on defense. The fact that his offense never improved is the problem.


I am not dismissing anything. It was an excellent team, built on one of the greatest defenses to ever set foot on the field. They also had one of the best tight ends of all time, one of the best left tackles of all time, and one (actually two) of the better running backs of all time. To suggest they had no offensive talent is deceiving.

Billick was incapable of building an offense in a decade, which was supposed to be his strength. That's a fact. He was fortunate to coach one of the greatest defenses of all-time and it resulted in a SB. The rest of his resume suggests he's nothing more than an average coach.


actually, his first year they improved slightly from the year prior and then set a scoring record in his 2nd year and increased their yards by nearly 1,000 yards. To argue that Billick was not a great offensive mind is stupid, I am sorry. He was dealt a bad hand in Baltimore on offense, plain and simple and he did not the last word on players in Baltimore.

How you can argue that he is not a great coach is beyond me. The Eagles had the best D in the league with Bud Carson, how did that work out? Your argument is os full of holes it is amazing and yet you stick to it. I don't get it.

You don't like Billcik, I get that but you make yourself look silly with these bad arguments.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jan 16 2013, 01:34 AM) *
actually, his first year they improved slightly from the year prior and then set a scoring record in his 2nd year and increased their yards by nearly 1,000 yards. To argue that Billick was not a great offensive mind is stupid, I am sorry. He was dealt a bad hand in Baltimore on offense, plain and simple and he did not the last word on players in Baltimore.
Dealt a bad hand? He was there for a decade. It would be one thing if he was there for 3-4 years and the offense never got off the ground. He was there for 9 years and could never put a top offense on the field. That's not a small sample size. Reid did it with three different QB's.

QUOTE
How you can argue that he is not a great coach is beyond me. The Eagles had the best D in the league with Bud Carson, how did that work out? Your argument is os full of holes it is amazing and yet you stick to it. I don't get it.
Actually it's been addressed numerous times. It's pathetic that we were unable to capitalize on those early 90's defenses. That has nothing to do with Billick or Reid, which are the basis of this conversation.

QUOTE
You don't like Billcik, I get that but you make yourself look silly with these bad arguments.

That the guy couldn't develop a successful offense in a decade, despite the fact that he was an offensive coach, is a bad argument. Got it. I feel so silly.
Rest assured, having lived in Baltimore throughout his tenure, I watched the offensive futility first hand. Likely more so than you.

Rick
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 15 2013, 11:06 PM) *
Yes, they were great with Moss, Carter, and Robert Smith in '98. The league didn't have an answer for Moss in his rookie year.

You have to wonder how much Dennis Green impacted that greatness and how much it was Billick. They did just fine prior to Billick taking over OC duties.

He spent almost a decade in Baltimore and had one team rank in the top-10 (8th) in scoring. On average (and yes, I looked it up) they finished 17th.


Right, the beginning of his tenure in Baltimore was built on defense. The fact that his offense never improved is the problem.


I am not dismissing anything. It was an excellent team, built on one of the greatest defenses to ever set foot on the field. They also had one of the best tight ends of all time, one of the best left tackles of all time, and one (actually two) of the better running backs of all time. To suggest they had no offensive talent is deceiving.

Billick was incapable of building an offense in a decade, which was supposed to be his strength. That's a fact. He was fortunate to coach one of the greatest defenses of all-time and it resulted in a SB. The rest of his resume suggests he's nothing more than an average coach.

You love to twist everything don't you? Regardless of whether their offense was any good (or not), it doesn't change the fact that they won a SB. You suggesting it wasn't (at least) partially because of him its as ridiculous as the rest of your arguments here.

Did he piss in your girlfriend's cereal or something? You won't give him ANY credit for ANYTHING he's done in the league. You sound like a crazy person crying about him not being a good coach (even though he's one of the relatively few coaches in NFL history who has won a SB. You crying about the Patriots cheating to try and prove how great Andy was just make you seem even more out there. Then you even imply Dennis Green is better than BB! What!!??

Whether I think he should be the next HC of the Eagles is irrelevant. He is, however, a good coach. Average coaches don't take a team and win a SB...period. Your golden boy (Andy) had plenty of opportunities (relatively speaking) to win a SB in Philly but couldn't close the deal. You need to come to grips with that and move on. He's gone, go become a KC fan so you can keep cheering for him and be done with it already.
Rick
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 16 2013, 12:47 AM) *
Reid did it with three different QB's.

You're right, he didn't win a SB with 3 different QBs...

QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 16 2013, 12:47 AM) *
That the guy couldn't develop a successful offense in a decade, despite the fact that he was an offensive coach, is a bad argument. Got it. I feel so silly.
Rest assured, having lived in Baltimore throughout his tenure, I watched the offensive futility first hand. Likely more so than you.

Oh, that's right, you lived in Baltimore so that somehow makes you an expert on the situation. unsure.gif
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Rick @ Jan 16 2013, 07:09 AM) *
Oh, that's right, you lived in Baltimore so that somehow makes you an expert on the situation. unsure.gif


Yes, actually witnessing the situation of which I am commenting makes me more qualified to do so than someone who is just going with their gut. The fact that you don't get that makes you even more oblivious than I had previously thought.
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 16 2013, 07:56 AM) *
Yes, actually witnessing the situation of which I am commenting makes me more qualified to do so than someone who is just going with their gut.

It also quite possible that it allowed you to develop a bias.
Rick
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 16 2013, 07:56 AM) *
Yes, actually witnessing the situation of which I am commenting makes me more qualified to do so than someone who is just going with their gut. The fact that you don't get that makes you even more oblivious than I had previously thought.

You witnessed it more so then others? I supposed you were at EVERY game he coached and at EVERY meeting he had, EVERY practice. Heck, I bet you two went to the same gym!

You are no more an expert on it than anyone else around here. Living there doesn't make you any more (or less) of an expert. Get over yourself already.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Rick @ Jan 16 2013, 09:55 AM) *
You witnessed it more so then others? I supposed you were at EVERY game he coached and at EVERY meeting he had, EVERY practice. Heck, I bet you two went to the same gym!

You are no more an expert on it than anyone else around here. Living there doesn't make you any more (or less) of an expert. Get over yourself already.


I never claimed to be an expert. I've just watched (on TV) more Billick coached games than anyone else on this board. I would guarantee it. That makes me more knowledgable than you on the subject. Without question. I'm certain there are many subjects which you have far more intimate knowledge of than myself. That's how these things work.

You have a child if memory serves. I would almost guarantee your knowledge of Sesame Street outweighs mine, which is only nourished through brief visits with my niece and nephew. And I wouldn't be daft enough to suggest otherwise.
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 16 2013, 10:10 AM) *
I never claimed to be an expert. I've just watched (on TV) more Billick coached games than anyone else on this board. I would guarantee it. That makes me more knowledgable than you on the subject.

It doesn't make you more knowledgeable. You find evidence to substantiate your opinion. It seems as though you have a bias, perhaps it is a result of living in the area. That's what you have, an opinion. I can say that Andy Reid coached teams throw the ball too much. You might say that the play calling would be more efficient if he had a QB that could facilitate this. 2 separate opinions.

mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 16 2013, 11:19 AM) *
It doesn't make you more knowledgeable. You find evidence to substantiate your opinion. It seems as though you have a bias, perhaps it is a result of living in the area. That's what you have, an opinion. I can say that Andy Reid coached teams throw the ball too much. You might say that the play calling would be more efficient if he had a QB that could facilitate this. 2 separate opinions.

No, because we have formed our opinions on two separate knowledge bases. Mine is from directly watching Brian Billick coached teams. You and Rick formed your opinion from looking at his record and seeing that he won a SB.

If I saw two movies, but you only saw one and the preview for another, I could give a more educated analysis of both movies. I wouldn't claim to be able to form the same opinion on the Harbaugh led Ravens because I no longer live in the area or watch many Ravens games.

Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 16 2013, 11:34 AM) *
No, because we have formed our opinions on two separate knowledge bases. Mine is from directly watching Brian Billick coached teams. You and Rick formed your opinion from looking at his record and seeing that he won a SB.

That's speculative. We live in the information age. I have almost the same access to resources as you do. Moreover, my opinion doesn't become tainted by local media outlets and their opinions because I am not inundated with negative feedback after a loss or positive feedback after a win.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 16 2013, 12:22 PM) *
That's speculative. We live in the information age. I have almost the same access to resources as you do.

Seriously dude, what the hell are you talking about. This isn't about resources. This is about watching football games. I watched countless Brian Billick coached Ravens games. More than any coach other than Reid.

I've never once claimed to be more knowledgable about Reid/Eagles than anyone on this board, because we are all basing our opinions on watching this team passionately. So passionately that we spend a pathetic amount of time here discussing it.

I'm glad it's a moot point now, but this isn't about having access to articles and opinions. I've witnessed it with my own eyes.

QUOTE
Moreover, my opinion doesn't become tainted by local media outlets and their opinions because I am not inundated with negative feedback after a loss or positive feedback after a win.

Your opinion is tainted by one game, which is enough for me.
Rick
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 16 2013, 10:10 AM) *
I never claimed to be an expert. I've just watched (on TV) more Billick coached games than anyone else on this board. I would guarantee it. That makes me more knowledgable than you on the subject. Without question. I'm certain there are many subjects which you have far more intimate knowledge of than myself. That's how these things work.

You have a child if memory serves. I would almost guarantee your knowledge of Sesame Street outweighs mine, which is only nourished through brief visits with my niece and nephew. And I wouldn't be daft enough to suggest otherwise.

Well, you're assuming you've watched more than I and others. You have no idea.

And just watching it on TV means as much as us watching on TV. It does NOT make you any smarter than anyone else.

Rick
QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 16 2013, 12:22 PM) *
That's speculative. We live in the information age. I have almost the same access to resources as you do. Moreover, my opinion doesn't become tainted by local media outlets and their opinions because I am not inundated with negative feedback after a loss or positive feedback after a win.

Exactly...
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Rick @ Jan 16 2013, 12:53 PM) *
Well, you're assuming you've watched more than I and others. You have no idea.

Are you telling me you've watched a lot of Ravens games when Billick was the coach? Is that what you are saying?

QUOTE
And just watching it on TV means as much as us watching on TV. It does NOT make you any smarter than anyone else.

I never once mentioned being smarter than anyone else. I said I was more knowledgable of Brian Billick's coaching than others here because I've watched a significant amount first hand.

My god, I'm glad this is a moot conversation.
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