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HOUSEoPAIN
Jeremiah Trotter calls out Reid for blowing big games.

Yep.

"Andy Reid got out-coached in a lot of games, man, a lot of big games," Trotter continued. "Time outs, running the football, you know."

His play-calling decisions also affected the psyche of the defensive players and coaches, according to Trotter.

"As a defense, we understood we passed the ball too much. You know, there's times we're sitting over there like, 'Man, listen. Just get us a couple of first downs so we can get a break.' And I'm sure it frustrated Jim Johnson also."


We hear ya man.....
mcnabbulous
Studies have been done about this. All you have to do to get first downs is run the ball! It's that easy.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 3 2013, 07:36 PM) *
Studies have been done about this. All you have to do to get first downs is run the ball! It's that easy.


Yeah what the hell does Trotter know? What a fraud.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Jan 3 2013, 08:39 PM) *
Yeah what the hell does Trotter know? What a fraud.


Well he was never on a successful team other than when Andy was his coach...
So I'll go out on a limb and say that Andy actually knows more than him.
Zero
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 3 2013, 07:57 PM) *
Well he was never on a successful team other than when Andy was his coach...
So I'll go out on a limb and say that Andy actually knows more than him.

I'd suggest that Trot was more the product of JJ than Andy. I also think Trot was relating lockerroom conversations, experiences and opinions more than he was expressing an expert opinion. It seemed he was trying to validate his new role as an objective anylist; he did give Reid overall praise, he only echoed observations we've all expressed over the years about play calling, clock management and the ability to adjust on the fly.
mcnabbulous
I understand that. My point is that thinking the solution was simply running so we can pickup first downs is asinine. If he's trying to be an analyst, he's got his work cut out for him.

Especially because early in Donnie's career, we had a lot of success with ball control and moving the chains. It was only after Donnie became immobile, thus one dimensional, that we began relying heavily on big plays.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 3 2013, 09:03 PM) *
I understand that. My point is that thinking the solution was simply running so we can pickup first downs is asinine. If he's trying to be an analyst, he's got his work cut out for him.


Clearly you don't understand that. He is now voicing the same things heard from fans, players, and other coaches for years. How many seconds do you run off the clock by going 3-passes and out before sending your D back out there? How many times, especially late in games, have we seen Andy give our defense about a minute or two of rest? Again, what do NFL stars know? Reid groupies know better.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Jan 4 2013, 10:49 AM) *
Clearly you don't understand that. He is now voicing the same things heard from fans, players, and other coaches for years. How many seconds do you run off the clock by going 3-passes and out before sending your D back out there? How many times, especially late in games, have we seen Andy give our defense about a minute or two of rest? Again, what do NFL stars know? Reid groupies know better.


Reid groupies don't know better. Reid knows better. Yes, there were times when our offense didn't do any favors for our defense. Where we differ is who we blame for that. I believe the fact that our QB couldn't consistently make routine throws for quarters at a time contributed to those issues. You think it was Reid's fault. When Donovan was "on" we were as good as any team in football offensively. When bad Donovan reared his ugly head, we had droughts of bad play.
The difference between us and the great offenses isn't the playcalling or run/pass ratio. It's the consistent greatness (or lack thereof) from the QB position. The reason we can't compare ourselves to an offense like the 49ers is because we've never had a QB consistent enough to play like the 49ers. If you go through significant portions of the game when you can't make 7-15 yard throws, your offense is going to struggle.
BirdsWinBaby
I hate to listen to Trott, but I respect him as a guy who knows football. If he says that defensive players were annoyed at AR's pass-happy offense it makes sense for 2 reasons (neither has anything to do with running being an auto-1st down maker)

1) frustration which is only human. Defensive players sigh and grumble when they disagree with a call the same way offensive players do. No doubt offensive players have stories of watching JJ's guys saying, "Jesus man! Don't let them get a 1st down. BLITZ MORE!" A blitz guarantees a defensive stop no more than run guarantees a 1st down. But They all do it

2) Trott was here 2004-2006. He watched AR fall in love with the long ball and watched 2more years as guys like donte stallworth and Reggie brown couldn't get it done. You bet your ass the defense was throwing up their hands constantly
mcnabbulous
My question is: when will we learn that it's the Jim's and Joe's not the X's and O's.

When Donovan could move, he could compensate for the fact that he was an inconsistent passer. I'm not quite sure 2004 is a solid example of offensive futility, but when Garcia was our QB in 2006, we moved the chains just fine.

If you run it on first and second down, but still need to pickup 3-5 yards to get a first down...your QB better be able to complete a medium range pass. Our QB could not consistently do that.
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 4 2013, 10:58 AM) *
My question is: when will we learn that it's the Jim's and Joe's not the X's and O's.

When Donovan could move, he could compensate for the fact that he was an inconsistent passer. I'm not quite sure 2004 is a solid example of offensive futility, but when Garcia was our QB in 2006, we moved the chains just fine.

If you run it on first and second down, but still need to pickup 3-5 yards to get a first down...your QB better be able to complete a medium range pass. Our QB could not consistently do that.

When will we learn that the x's and o's usually make the Jim's and Joe's?

Learning to adapt has never been AR's strong suit. Throwing the ball 50 times doesn't make your QB a better passer. Early in his tenure he didn't have his QB's passing the ball 40-50 times per game on a regular basis.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 4 2013, 12:18 PM) *
When will we learn that the x's and o's usually make the Jim's and Joe's?
Yeah, Charlie Weiss, Josh McDaniels, and Bill O'Brien all happen to be the three greatest offensive minds of our generation. And whoever Peyton Manning's offensive coordinator is at the time.

QUOTE
Learning to adapt has never been AR's strong suit. Throwing the ball 50 times doesn't make your QB a better passer. Early in his tenure he didn't have his QB's passing the ball 40-50 times per game on a regular basis.

Correct, because early in his career AR had a great defense (which didnt regularly put is in large deficits) and QB who could pick up yards with his legs. He also didn't do it when AJ Feely and Jeff Garcia were his QBs.

Those time periods happen to coincide with Trotter's tenure. Which makes my point. Trotter is full of shit.
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 4 2013, 11:59 AM) *
Yeah, Charlie Weiss, Josh McDaniels, and Bill O'Brien all happen to be the three greatest offensive minds of our generation. And whoever Peyton Manning's offensive coordinator is at the time.

Correct, because early in his career AR had a great defense (which didnt regularly put is in large deficits) and QB who could pick up yards with his legs. He also didn't do it when AJ Feely and Jeff Garcia were his QBs.

P. Manning is perhaps the greatest QB of our generation. Suffice it to say that type of talent doesn't come along every day. It's a bad example. A better example would be using your hero (Reid) and his ability to get the most out of a player like AJ Feeley.

Much of coaching is relating to players, running schemes that put them in position to succeed and allowing them to be who they are. Coaches who figure this out are very successful with different personnel groups. Coaching is the difference between a good and great player. There are exceptions to the rule, but it is the general rule. it’s not necessarily about a “good” coach but more about the “right” coach.
TGryn
The defense had as much to do with us not winning Super Bowls as the offense. In the conference championship losses, we gave up 29, 27(20), 14, and 32 points, plus 24 in the Super Bowl. JJ and his defense just didn't do their job in four of those five games (14 points should have been good enough in the Carolina game).

But of course, Trotter's not going to mention that. And with the anointing of JJ as the real brains behind all of Reid's success in the Reid regime retrospectives, the defense gets a free pass from taking any responsibility.

I'd also add that AFAIK BDawk hasn't ever been asked why he was more or less invisible in terms of big plays in those games, too.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (TGryn @ Jan 4 2013, 12:32 PM) *
The defense had as much to do with us not winning Super Bowls as the offense. In the conference championship losses, we gave up 29, 27(20), 14, and 32 points, plus 24 in the Super Bowl. JJ and his defense just didn't do their job in four of those five games (14 points should have been good enough in the Carolina game).


C'mon man, you know damn well there's more to the story than that. Did our defense play well in our last playoff game? Holding Rodgers to 21 points should be good, no? Please. We had no business even being in that game, but since God likes torturing Eagles fans, it went down to the wire.
TGryn
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Jan 4 2013, 01:28 PM) *
C'mon man, you know damn well there's more to the story than that.

Your point is my point as well. Trotter's basically saying that JJ's defense was held back by Andy's offense, when they got torched by Warner twice as well as by Brady in the Super Bowl. There's more to it than Trotter's "well, you know, we were great and the offense was the problem." That's BS, and its a cheap shot for Trotter to say so now when he doesn't have to worry about running into Andy around town anymore.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE
Your point is my point as well. Trotter's basically saying that JJ's defense was held back by Andy's offense, when they got torched by Warner twice as well as by Brady in the Super Bowl.


Ok, first of all, using the NFCCG against the Rams is intellectually dishonest at best. We were going up against arguably the greatest offense ever assembled, the 'greatest show on turf,' and we took them to a 29-24 loss. It sucked to lose, but no Eagles fan can realistically say they were 'dismayed' by that. It was a thrilling ride, and we lost to a better team. The 'experts' were picking us to lose 41-14. Reid, the offense, and the defense all showed up and gave a great game against a far superior opponent.

The second game against Warner was the tipping point for many Eagles fans, including myself. We had dominated the Cards on Thanksgiving with a balanced attack, then we reverted to Reid's 50-pass bullshit, and lost. But correct me if I'm mistaken, Trotter wasn't even on that team?

And as far as the Super Bowl goes, please. Holding Brady to 24 points, especially given the turnovers from our offense, isn't getting 'torched' at all.

QUOTE
There's more to it than Trotter's "well, you know, we were great and the offense was the problem." That's BS, and its a cheap shot for Trotter to say so now when he doesn't have to worry about running into Andy around town anymore.


Why do people keep complaining about this? He didn't do it while in uniform, or while he was in town. Do you think he's afriad of the walrus? Wouldn't it be better for players to speak now that he can't be undermined as coach here? Would you rather have him do it while he was a player?



Reality Fan
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Jan 4 2013, 06:11 PM) *
And as far as the Super Bowl goes, please. Holding Brady to 24 points, especially given the turnovers from our offense, isn't getting 'torched' at all.


It is hard not to place a good deal of the blame for the SB loss on Trotter and his defense when Trotter says something like this.......They gave up 17 points in the second half and you can't blame the offense for that. The Pats had a 3 minute TOP advantage in that game so it was not that the D never had time for a breather. I am sure you will want to Trot out the 3 picks but that would be silly....the first was after a drive into the red zone, the 2nd off the TEs hands and the 3rd at the end of the game in desperation and to the Ds credit none led to points for the Pats. In the SB the D never adjusted to the changes the Pats made at halftime.

The problem I have with Trotter's comments was that he and his D were often a big part of the problem in "big" games and he takes no blame for it while taking a shot at the guy he obviously never forgave for his first departure.

and as far as Jj being responsible for Reid's success? What successful coach calls the offensive and defensive plays? That is why they have coordinators. Credit Reid for building a monster staff and fault him for not adequately replacing them when they left to become head coaches.
nephillymike
FWIW, yesterday on 97.5, B WEst was given the chance to refute what Trot said and he did not.

When given the chance this week, both of these players spoke highly of Andy and had taped well wishes broadcast on Comcast for Andy.

As far as Trot goes, he tells a story of how he and Andy we're both crying when Trot was getting cut the last time. He did not seem to harbor bad feelings.

So, they either secretly hated the guy, or, he had the flaws that some of us thought he had all along.

Lurie either secretly hated him, or he really was responsbile for some horrendous drafts.

Zero
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jan 5 2013, 12:33 AM) *
Credit Reid for building a monster staff and fault him for not adequately replacing them when they left to become head coaches.

There it is, right there.
Zero
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jan 5 2013, 07:07 AM) *
... he really was responsbile for some horrendous drafts.

I think that has been proven: if he had final say and the players couldn't play, he was responsible. Unfortunately, it doesn't validate Howie as GM. I hope he proves to be a great talent evaluator but I have to wonder how potential coaches view him.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jan 5 2013, 07:07 AM) *
FWIW, yesterday on 97.5, B WEst was given the chance to refute what Trot said and he did not.

When given the chance this week, both of these players spoke highly of Andy and had taped well wishes broadcast on Comcast for Andy.

As far as Trot goes, he tells a story of how he and Andy we're both crying when Trot was getting cut the last time. He did not seem to harbor bad feelings.

So, they either secretly hated the guy, or, he had the flaws that some of us thought he had all along.

Lurie either secretly hated him, or he really was responsbile for some horrendous drafts.


I think there is some truth in all of it. I think Trot is still a little bitter...maybe, maybe not but for him to toss Reid under the bus is certainly bizarre at this point.........and maybe if Westbrook did not get hurt as often as DeSean he would have more credibility for me.

There is no question Reid had flaws and that returns us to the matter of his staff helping to deal with those which occurs in any successful management team. His inability to replace those coaches with those of equal or better talent was his downfall. It was not just one spot, he seemed to be fundamentally incapable of replacing multiple position coaching talent.

And here we are.....
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