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HOUSEoPAIN
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Fire the Walrus.
mcnabbulous
Isn't pointing out that we have zero pro bowlers the same as stating that we were a bad team? Which he's going to get fired for to begin with?

The larger problem, is a general lack of good football players. He's probably responsible for that, too. But that's the issue with this team.
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 27 2012, 03:19 PM) *
Isn't pointing out that we have zero pro bowlers the same as stating that we were a bad team? Which he's going to get fired for to begin with?

The larger problem, is a general lack of good football players. He's probably responsible for that, too. But that's the issue with this team.

If he gets fired it will be a result of not getting us over the hump. Despite the success that he has had with the Eagles he has "failed to put this team in a position to succeed". The expiration date has been reached. Bad coaching and poor decisions have been a fatal combination to this seasons aspirations. The talent on this team isn't 'A' list, but it is better than a 4-11 record.
SAM I Am
Evan Mathis is the third alternate rolleyes.gif

And considering the Super Bowl Pro Bowlers won't be there, and plenty of others will bail out, he actually stands a good chance of being in Hawaii and playing in the flag football game.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Dec 27 2012, 06:37 PM) *
If he gets fired it will be a result of not getting us over the hump. Despite the success that he has had with the Eagles he has "failed to put this team in a position to succeed". The expiration date has been reached. Bad coaching and poor decisions have been a fatal combination to this seasons aspirations. The talent on this team isn't 'A' list, but it is better than a 4-11 record.

Yeah, Andy Reid failed to put this franchise in a position to succeed. He led the team to 5 NFCCG, as recently as 2009.

His past few seasons have been dismal, as he hasn't gotten the QB play needed to succeed in the modern NFL. But one thing you can't say is that he didn't put this team in a position to succeed. He did so longer than most.

The "talent" on this team is garbage. Or at least it has been since midseason. Maybe we just have different definitions of the word "talent." Maybe you think "talent" has to do with measurables. Lorenzo Booker had "talent" but he wasn't a football player. That's what our roster currently consists of. Lots of Lorenzo Bookers.

He's getting fired because of the "talent" or lack thereof on this roster. Especially at the QB position. Given the numerous attempts to upgrade that position in the offseason (RGIII, Peyton Manning, Russel Wilson) it appears that he was more aware of it than most.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 27 2012, 03:19 PM) *
Isn't pointing out that we have zero pro bowlers the same as stating that we were a bad team? Which he's going to get fired for to begin with?

The larger problem, is a general lack of good football players. He's probably responsible for that, too. But that's the issue with this team.


This thread wasn't designed for trolling or bringing out the same arguments we've been having - it's simply to point out that the wheels have truly fallen off of this organization - in his first year, and in our worst years under his watch, we have sent players to the Pro Bowl, and this year we can't even muster one to make the squad without injury/Super Bowl alternates, which might put one of our guys on.

It is also of note that some of his years it seemed as if half our squad made it, and the last time we didn't send a guy to Hawaii is under Rhodes' last year.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Dec 27 2012, 09:24 PM) *
The last time we didn't send a guy to Hawaii is under Rhodes' last year.


That's kind of my point. Not having any pro bowlers is another measurement of having a bad team. The first measurement is our record.
I think you could actually argue that not having any is actually a point in Reid's favor. If this team was loaded with pro bowlers and still sporting this record, it would be more of a statement regarding the coaching.
Zero
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 27 2012, 11:22 PM) *
That's kind of my point. Not having any pro bowlers is another measurement of having a bad team. The first measurement is our record.
I think you could actually argue that not having any is actually a point in Reid's favor. If this team was loaded with pro bowlers and still sporting this record, it would be more of a statement regarding the coaching.

There is a shortage of players who are playing at a pro bowl level, no doubt. But:
1. Reid is a proponent of fitting the players into his system.
2. Foles threw 56 times last Sunday?
3. This year's Eagle team was not just mauled by phsical injury, but it appears the "focus" was spread like peanut butter on Wonder bread.

The point? Reid made some serious micalulations and flat out mistakes this year that affected the players ability to play at the level required perform up to their potential. We saw it every game it seems, that stretch during the game when the team goes from playing well to being a high school team. That was consistent all year and to me that spells coaching.
mcnabbulous
I don't think the coaches have done a great job this year, but I also don't think they have had much to work with. I think many of our collapses have been a product of youth. We have no veteran leadership on offense. Absolutely no winners.


Foles threw 48 passes on Sunday, but that can be attributed to a few things. We were down 14 in the 4th quarter. 19 of his attempts came in the 4th. There were tons of short screens to RB and WR. It was a close game, and the coaches likely didn't feel comfortable giving the ball to Brown much, given his fumbles.


Overall, I think our "talent" is highly overrated by those on this board (I was guilty of it preseason.) Especially after losing our best player, Peters, which largely impacted our second best player, McCoy. We have zero starting NFL caliber safeties, and no veteran leadership at several key positions. Our two defensive "leaders" are Ryans and Jenkins, which is a testament to the lack of homegrown talent on that side of the ball.

We are "close" in the sense that if we get better QB play, our team will improve accordingly. But as I said earlier, Andy's push to upgrade that position in the offseason is rather telling at this point. He clearly knew what he had with Vick.


I just realized last night that Kevin Kolb is basically going to cost two head coaches jobs this season. Andy, for betting on him to begin with. And Wisenhunt, for betting the franchise on him. It's a QB's league, fellas. And if you bet on the wrong horse, you won't have a job very long.
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 27 2012, 08:13 PM) *
The "talent" on this team is garbage. Or at least it has been since midseason.

So you admit that the talent exists or existed, either way I fault the coaches. This isn't an underachieving group of pro-bowlers. This has been an ill-prepared team for several years. They just don't seem to care, and the coaches seem incapable of making them care or playing to their potential.

QUOTE
It was a close game, and the coaches likely didn't feel comfortable giving the ball to Brown much, given his fumbles.

If you don't feel comfortable with a player, don't play him. Cut him. It's bad coaching to not utilize your players strengths.
Phits
QUOTE (Zero @ Dec 28 2012, 07:08 AM) *
There is a shortage of players who are playing at a pro bowl level, no doubt. But:
1. Reid is a proponent of fitting the players into his system.
2. Foles threw 56 times last Sunday?
3. This year's Eagle team was not just mauled by phsical injury, but it appears the "focus" was spread like peanut butter on Wonder bread.

The point? Reid made some serious micalulations and flat out mistakes this year that affected the players ability to play at the level required perform up to their potential. We saw it every game it seems, that stretch during the game when the team goes from playing well to being a high school team. That was consistent all year and to me that spells coaching.

+1
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Dec 28 2012, 02:44 PM) *
So you admit that the talent exists or existed, either way I fault the coaches. This isn't an underachieving group of pro-bowlers. This has been an ill-prepared team for several years. They just don't seem to care, and the coaches seem incapable of making them care or playing to their potential.

Several years means two years?
QUOTE
If you don't feel comfortable with a player, don't play him. Cut him. It's bad coaching to not utilize your players strengths.

Yeah, we should cut Bryce Brown because he fumbles after not having played football for much of the past 3 years.
It's logical that they don't trust him at this point. Cutting him is stupid talk.
Rick
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 28 2012, 02:33 PM) *
Yeah, we should cut Bryce Brown because he fumbles after not having played football for much of the past 3 years.
It's logical that they don't trust him at this point. Cutting him is stupid talk.

And constantly making excuses for why he's too dumb to protect the ball is stupid talk. Sorry, I will never buy his not playing much in the past few years. Protecting the ball is something they teach from the beginning of playing football. It's not something you forget about because you haven't played as much lately.

Why don't you see other players doing the same? There are many players who come along after not playing much for a while but they don't fumble the ball all of the time.

If they can't fix it before the season starts next season, he needs to go. Let him go fumble the ball for someone else. He's played more than a few games here and has been on the team all season. That's plenty of time to remember to protect the ball if you want to use your excuse.
mcnabbulous
Seriously, Rick...you're talking utter nonsense. Bryce Brown has been the best player on the field at every level he has played until now. He never had to learn how to protect the football because no one was ever trying to strip the football. They were just hoping to tackle him.

Now he's playing against the best of the best. Guys who spend time in practice exclusively focused on stripping the ball.

You do see other players doing the same. McCoy holds the ball like a loaf of bread. He's fortunate that he doesn't fumble more, but he's so skilled that players are more worried about making the tackle than forcing the fumble.

I agree he needs to fix it, but the problem has been happening since the game started. It's similar to star players being passed by lesser talents because the guys with less talent have to work harder. That occurs all the time.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 29 2012, 01:06 PM) *
Seriously, Rick...you're talking utter nonsense. Bryce Brown has been the best player on the field at every level he has played until now. He never had to learn how to protect the football because no one was ever trying to strip the football. They were just hoping to tackle him.


Bryce Brown has had some killer games, and his fumbleitis is well documented, which of course cancels out his performance. Whenever he carries the ball they show replay of how he holds it, he's a fumble waiting to happen. I don't think we should cut him, I like his potential as a supplement to McCoy, but if the way he carries the ball doesn't change by next year, now that he's 'arrived' and others are watching video of him, he has to go. Guys like Tillman must be licking their chops to play against him.
mcnabbulous
Tiki Barber had fumble issues for several seasons. It may take some time to fix, but it's fixable. His talent is too much to give up on.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 29 2012, 02:24 PM) *
Tiki Barber had fumble issues for several seasons. It may take some time to fix, but it's fixable. His talent is too much to give up on.


I agree we shouldn't give up on him, I'm just saying he should be on a pretty short leash next year, now that he'll have an entire offseason and preseason to iron out this issue.

Funny I was actually thinking of Barber when I wrote my last post - specifically a game long ago where he had like 200 rushing yards and almost 300 total yards, but he lost 3 fumbles which kept the Giants off the board. I looked it up for fun, it was the last game of 2002, we ended up losing 10-7.

Most people credit Coughlin with cutting down on his fumbles by teaching him to carry the ball vertically a la rugby. This should be one of the priorities of the next HC and OC, to make sure Brown is reliable.
Rick
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 29 2012, 02:24 PM) *
Tiki Barber had fumble issues for several seasons. It may take some time to fix, but it's fixable. His talent is too much to give up on.

Yes, he did but it wasn't at this same epic pace.

And I didn't hear anyone making excuses for him.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Rick @ Dec 29 2012, 08:23 PM) *
Yes, he did but it wasn't at this same epic pace.

And I didn't hear anyone making excuses for him.


It's a small sample size. And they aren't excuses. They are reality. You can't relate to playing entirely with the natural instincts and ability that he has. I know I can't. The game is a different speed in the NFL...especially after having barely played in college.


You're wrong about most things you post. Especially about this.

Edit: it comes as no surprise that with a quick search, Barber was fumbling at a higher rate (per carry) at times during his career. Including when he had been in the league for 4 years.
Rick
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 29 2012, 09:07 PM) *
It's a small sample size. And they aren't excuses. They are reality. You can't relate to playing entirely with the natural instincts and ability that he has. I know I can't. The game is a different speed in the NFL...especially after having barely played in college.


You're wrong about most things you post. Especially about this.

Edit: it comes as no surprise that with a quick search, Barber was fumbling at a higher rate (per carry) at times during his career. Including when he had been in the league for 4 years.

What am I wrong about? All I've said is if he can't figure out how NOT to fumble, he needs to go. Yeah, I guess I'm wrong. We should keep someone who turns the ball over all of the time....
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Rick @ Dec 30 2012, 07:36 PM) *
What am I wrong about? All I've said is if he can't figure out how NOT to fumble, he needs to go. Yeah, I guess I'm wrong. We should keep someone who turns the ball over all of the time....


You're wrong about him being too dumb not to fumble.
Zero
QUOTE (Rick @ Dec 30 2012, 06:36 PM) *
What am I wrong about? All I've said is if he can't figure out how NOT to fumble, he needs to go. Yeah, I guess I'm wrong. We should keep someone who turns the ball over all of the time....


The relevant word there is "IF" he can't stop the fumbling. The kid is basically a college sophmore when it comes to playing time. Let's see if he works on it before we bury him. I think it was Westy who said he needs to strengthen his hands; let's see how he works in the off-season.
Rick
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 30 2012, 09:45 PM) *
You're wrong about him being too dumb not to fumble.

About who is too dumb not to fumble?
Rick
QUOTE (Zero @ Dec 31 2012, 07:02 AM) *
The relevant word there is "IF" he can't stop the fumbling. The kid is basically a college sophmore when it comes to playing time. Let's see if he works on it before we bury him. I think it was Westy who said he needs to strengthen his hands; let's see how he works in the off-season.

And that's (essentially) what I said...see if he can solve this by the end of the pre-season, if not, cut him.

I still don't buy the excuses about his experience. It's just an excuse.
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