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Zero
It seems every year it's the same thing. I know it's only been once or twice, but the Giants always seem to get hot behind the passing of Eli as the season winds down. Now there's a true threat in D.C. with RGIII that will need to be stopped for any team to beat. If they add good players to the offense that will get much harder.

There's been a lot of talk about the guy from Oregon and a few opinions have leaned to an offensive minded coach but the Eagles' problem is much more on the defensive side of the ball. They're in trouble now but it'll only get worse if RGIII gets better weapons.

The Eagles need to build a DOMINANT defense and it needs to be built to STOP a QB like RGIII! Start with a brilliant, creative and experienced defensive coach and add top talent from the draft and FA.

JMO
CT_Eagle
QUOTE (Zero @ Dec 6 2012, 12:02 PM) *
It seems every year it's the same thing. I know it's only been once or twice, but the Giants always seem to get hot behind the passing of Eli as the season winds down. Now there's a true threat in D.C. with RGIII that will need to be stopped for any team to beat. If they add good players to the offense that will get much harder.

There's been a lot of talk about the guy from Oregon and a few opinions have leaned to an offensive minded coach but the Eagles' problem is much more on the defensive side of the ball. They're in trouble now but it'll only get worse if RGIII gets better weapons.

The Eagles need to build a DOMINANT defense and it needs to be built to STOP a QB like RGIII! Start with a brilliant, creative and experienced defensive coach and add top talent from the draft and FA.

JMO



While I agree that RGIII has the potential to be a huge pain in the Eagle's ass for the next decade, I don't think you build a defense designed to stop him or other highly mobile QBs. We will face RG twice a season. There are 14 other games to deal with and most of those games will not feature an RG style QB.

With that said, I also want the Eagles future head coach to be defensively minded.
Zero
QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Dec 6 2012, 08:20 AM) *
There are 14 other games to deal with and most of those games will not feature an RG style QB.


True, but the Eagles need to get by their own division teams before they can get to the dance.
ClydeSide
Our defense sucks. It needs to be fixed. We need to reduce the number of points by the opposition and increase the number of turnovers.

BirdsWinBaby
Old time football is fun to watch. Pound that rock!! Shutdown defense. But This isnt your fathers NFL anymore. these days championships are won by elite QB play. No matter how good/bad the defense is

I want them to improve the defense and doing so will likely make any team into a "contender" with so many bad teams, but Foles throwing to the disappearing men (Mac/Jax) will not outduel brees, manning, and Rodgers in the NFC playoffs.... not to mention the likely improvement of shaub, Ryan, and RG3 , etc... Meanwhile elite QB play will overcome your defensive focus everytime

Of course there isn't a Tom Brady in every draft. So what you do to win is get the best QB you can and surround him with great skill guys so that he can look elite. Therefore I think a more offensive focus is needed.


ClydeSide
QUOTE (BirdsWinBaby @ Dec 6 2012, 10:04 AM) *
Old time football is fun to watch. Pound that rock!! Shutdown defense. But This isnt your fathers NFL anymore. these days championships are won by elite QB play. No matter how good/bad the defense is

I want them to improve the defense and doing so will likely make any team into a "contender" with so many bad teams, but Foles throwing to the disappearing men (Mac/Jax) will not outduel brees, manning, and Rodgers in the NFC playoffs.... not to mention the likely improvement of shaub, Ryan, and RG3 , etc... Meanwhile elite QB play will overcome your defensive focus everytime

Of course there isn't a Tom Brady in every draft. So what you do to win is get the best QB you can and surround him with great skill guys so that he can look elite. Therefore I think a more offensive focus is needed.



Agree with you. Foles is probably best in a Colts (Peyton Manning) style offense. He's smart, has a strong arm and has touch. He could call the audibles and reads well. He's smart enough for the WCO--but it's just so damn technical--and everybody seems to have Andy's number.

Interestingly enough though, Chip Kelly's Oregon offense is primaily a running offense--AND BOTH JOHN GRUDEN AND BILL BELLICHICK HAVE MADE VISITS. The no-huddle runs at three different speeds, but what it does is disrupt gap coverage and they run it up the gut. John Gruden is a personal friend of Kelly's. New England is already using the no-huddle concept of Oregon this year.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (BirdsWinBaby @ Dec 6 2012, 10:04 AM) *
Old time football is fun to watch. Pound that rock!! Shutdown defense. But This isnt your fathers NFL anymore. these days championships are won by elite QB play. No matter how good/bad the defense is

I want them to improve the defense and doing so will likely make any team into a "contender" with so many bad teams, but Foles throwing to the disappearing men (Mac/Jax) will not outduel brees, manning, and Rodgers in the NFC playoffs.... not to mention the likely improvement of shaub, Ryan, and RG3 , etc... Meanwhile elite QB play will overcome your defensive focus everytime

Of course there isn't a Tom Brady in every draft. So what you do to win is get the best QB you can and surround him with great skill guys so that he can look elite. Therefore I think a more offensive focus is needed.


I agree with almost all of this. The only thing I differ on is the surrounding talent. I think the ideal team is made up of an elite QB and a great defense. Unless you have an elite guy, you shouldn't stop trying to get one until you do. Elite guys will make the talent around them better on offense, so no reason to spend excessive resources there.
Then load up on defense.
Our 2002 team wasn't the closest thing we had to that, before Five broke his leg.
Way too many people on this board are hung up on old school football.
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 6 2012, 10:56 AM) *
I agree with almost all of this. The only thing I differ on is the surrounding talent. I think the ideal team is made up of an elite QB and a great defense. Unless you have an elite guy, you shouldn't stop trying to get one until you do. Elite guys will make the talent around them better on offense, so no reason to spend excessive resources there.
Then load up on defense.
Our 2002 team wasn't the closest thing we had to that, before Five broke his leg.
Way too many people on this board are hung up on old school football.

I agree with most of what you are saying, except, I don't think the QB has to be elite. Very good, yes. Consistent, yes. Elite ends up being a title bestowed upon you when you are consistent and very good and win a title. I don't think Eli is an "elite QB", but i think he is consistently good.
Eyrie
I don't think that the new HC necessarily has to be from the defensive side of the ball, providing he hires a talented DC and improves the talent on defence.

Think of what happened when Reid hired Johnson.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (Phits @ Dec 6 2012, 12:40 PM) *
I agree with most of what you are saying, except, I don't think the QB has to be elite. Very good, yes. Consistent, yes. Elite ends up being a title bestowed upon you when you are consistent and very good and win a title. I don't think Eli is an "elite QB", but i think he is consistently good.


Yeah this.

The last 4 teams remaining last year, you had Brady vs. Flacco, and Smith vs. Manning. Only Brady is indisputably 'elite' out of those 4, Eli is borderline depending on who you talk to, Flacco is above avergae as is Smith. You can build yourself and win either way - all are legit contenders, we'd be better suited to beef up on defense and use our running attack instead of hoping to find another Tom Brady in the draft. It looks like we can score some points next year and we assume our o-line will be better, it would be more important to get our defense off the field a few times a game.
mcnabbulous
Eli may not be elite, but he's proven to be clutch beyond belief. Every QB that has won since 2003 has been someone who can realistically make it to the HoF.

There aren't enough great QB's in the league to assume the final four is always going to have them. You can maybe make a run, but if you want to consistently give yourself a chance to win, you need a great QB.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 6 2012, 02:38 PM) *
Eli may not be elite, but he's proven to be clutch beyond belief. Every QB that has won since 2003 has been someone who can realistically make it to the HoF.

There aren't enough great QB's in the league to assume the final four is always going to have them. You can maybe make a run, but if you want to consistently give yourself a chance to win, you need a great QB.


To add a caveat to this. Since 2004, which I think was truly the year that things changed in favor of elite QB's, only 10 different QB's have played in the 8 SuperBowls.

Those QB's:
  1. Brady
  2. Donovan
  3. Roethlisberger
  4. Hasselbeck
  5. Peyton
  6. Grossman
  7. Eli
  8. Warner
  9. Brees
  10. Rodgers


Hasselbeck was great the year Seattle went to the SB. Grossman was obviously terrible, but the NFC was miserable that season. The Bears didn't even make the playoffs the following season.

The moral of the story. Have a great QB. Maybe "elite" is pushing it, but having a great QB is vital to having a chance.
VICKtory
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 6 2012, 04:14 PM) *
To add a caveat to this. Since 2004, which I think was truly the year that things changed in favor of elite QB's, only 10 different QB's have played in the 8 SuperBowls.

Those QB's:
  1. Brady
  2. Donovan
  3. Roethlisberger
  4. Hasselbeck
  5. Peyton
  6. Grossman
  7. Eli
  8. Warner
  9. Brees
  10. Rodgers


Hasselbeck was great the year Seattle went to the SB. Grossman was obviously terrible, but the NFC was miserable that season. The Bears didn't even make the playoffs the following season.

The moral of the story. Have a great QB. Maybe "elite" is pushing it, but having a great QB is vital to having a chance.


We keep talking about needing a "great QB" but honestly I think our best shot with one this next year is Foles. No standouts in the draft or FA this year. Might as well build around him, if he's a bust we have more to work with next year when we draft a QB if need be.
Zero
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Dec 6 2012, 02:27 PM) *
Yeah this.

The last 4 teams remaining last year, you had Brady vs. Flacco, and Smith vs. Manning. Only Brady is indisputably 'elite' out of those 4, Eli is borderline depending on who you talk to, Flacco is above avergae as is Smith. You can build yourself and win either way - all are legit contenders, we'd be better suited to beef up on defense and use our running attack instead of hoping to find another Tom Brady in the draft. It looks like we can score some points next year and we assume our o-line will be better, it would be more important to get our defense off the field a few times a game.

A good friend of mine is a rabid Ravens fan and thinks Flacco, as a FA may not be back in Baltimore next year. He thinks that the Ravens don't want to pay him what Flacco thinks he's worth: a top tier NFL QB.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (VICKtory @ Dec 6 2012, 08:07 PM) *
We keep talking about needing a "great QB" but honestly I think our best shot with one this next year is Foles. No standouts in the draft or FA this year. Might as well build around him, if he's a bust we have more to work with next year when we draft a QB if need be.

I think if we're in position to draft Geno Smith, we have to take it. He's not at the Luck/Griffin level, but he's a solid prospect. Who knows when we'll find ourselves at the top of the draft again (although if he busts, it's quite likely.)

VICKtory
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 6 2012, 08:34 PM) *
I think if we're in position to draft Geno Smith, we have to take it. He's not at the Luck/Griffin level, but he's a solid prospect. Who knows when we'll find ourselves at the top of the draft again (although if he busts, it's quite likely.)


I still think we have to take Joeckel if we he the opportunity, if we have him and a healthy Peters with all the weapons we have. I feel like it would make any QB (within reason) look pretty damn good
Phits
QUOTE (Zero @ Dec 6 2012, 07:31 PM) *
A good friend of mine is a rabid Ravens fan and thinks Flacco, as a FA may not be back in Baltimore next year. He thinks that the Ravens don't want to pay him what Flacco thinks he's worth: a top tier NFL QB.

I don't think Flacco is a top tier QB. From the limited playing time I have seen seen, Foles has as much upside as Flaaco...and more.
Zero
QUOTE (VICKtory @ Dec 6 2012, 11:21 PM) *
I still think we have to take Joeckel if we he the opportunity, if we have him and a healthy Peters with all the weapons we have. I feel like it would make any QB (within reason) look pretty damn good

II'm glad Reid is keeping Foles as the starter for the rest of the season so there's an opportunity to evaluate him and decide if he can be the team's QB. There's also been some reports that the young players on the OL are doing pretty good.

Everything I read seems to take it for granted that Peters will return and be the same player. Does anyone know if that's likely? If Peters can return to form and Kelce and Herremans can come back it may be that the team won't need to spend a premium pick on the OL. Kelly is apparently playing well enough that he could suplant Herremans who moves back to LG and Mathis moves over to RG. Peters and Herremans made a pretty good team on the left in '11.

If that happens then the team can go for defense, defense, defense unless there's a big receiver available early.
BirdsWinBaby
QUOTE (VICKtory @ Dec 7 2012, 12:21 AM) *
I still think we have to take Joeckel if we he the opportunity, if we have him and a healthy Peters with all the weapons we have. I feel like it would make any QB (within reason) look pretty damn good



i thought if we learned anything else this year its that all the 'weapons' and all the 'talent' we have is overblown
Phits
QUOTE (BirdsWinBaby @ Dec 7 2012, 07:14 AM) *
i thought if we learned anything else this year its that all the 'weapons' and all the 'talent' we have is overblown

By talent do you mean coaching? That was certainly overblown and virtually non-existent.
BirdsWinBaby
QUOTE (Phits @ Dec 7 2012, 11:46 AM) *
By talent do you mean coaching? That was certainly overblown and virtually non-existent.


Ah yes, well of course there is that but the problem of Reid, Bowles, mm, April and mudd et al will be no doubt addressed at years end

We good at RB obviously but If the myth of "all these weapons" in Foles, Mac&jack and celek continues, upgrades at those positions may not be sought
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (BirdsWinBaby @ Dec 7 2012, 01:33 PM) *
Ah yes, well of course there is that but the problem of Reid, Bowles, mm, April and mudd et al will be no doubt addressed at years end

We good at RB obviously but If the myth of "all these weapons" in Foles, Mac&jack and celek continues, upgrades at those positions may not be sought


No BWB, we can't have overhyped talent and have been poorly coached this season. There is only one reason for our failures and its Reid. Despite the fact that we haven't drafted an adequate defender in 7 years, our problem is exclusively coaching.
And yes, our WR's are not nearly as good as we had believed. DJax is a great deep threat, but not an all-around stud. Maclin is probably our most disappointing player this year. Unless that title goes to Celek.
But yeah, only our coaches are to blame.
Zero
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 7 2012, 01:26 PM) *
No BWB, we can't have overhyped talent and have been poorly coached this season. There is only one reason for our failures and its Reid. Despite the fact that we haven't drafted an adequate defender in 7 years, our problem is exclusively coaching.
And yes, our WR's are not nearly as good as we had believed. DJax is a great deep threat, but not an all-around stud. Maclin is probably our most disappointing player this year. Unless that title goes to Celek.
But yeah, only our coaches are to blame.

If I sense your sarcasm correctly, I think the talent is better than you give them credit for. It's not entirely coaching, but the schemes and play calling are the biggest culprits IMO.

If the OL returns to health and the team adds a big WR and a good blocking TE, uses a run first offense to take pressure off of the OL and QB and bring the safeties up I think we'd see improvement in the play of Maclin and Celek. Add in a competent CB, 3/4 of Dawk 2009 and a good WILL and scrap what has proved to be the asi9 and the defense may not be too bad. In fact, if these guys would play the coverage they're supposed to the D wouldn't be too bad now.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Zero @ Dec 7 2012, 03:38 PM) *
If I sense your sarcasm correctly, I think the talent is better than you give them credit for. It's not entirely coaching, but the schemes and play calling are the biggest culprits IMO.

If the OL returns to health and the team adds a big WR and a good blocking TE, uses a run first offense to take pressure off of the OL and QB and bring the safeties up I think we'd see improvement in the play of Maclin and Celek. Add in a competent CB, 3/4 of Dawk 2009 and a good WILL and scrap what has proved to be the asi9 and the defense may not be too bad. In fact, if these guys would play the coverage they're supposed to the D wouldn't be too bad now.
You named 6 different deficiencies that our current staff is not afforded. One of which being our OLine, which accounts for 3-4 players.
Celek has a terrible case of the dropsies and Maclin looks to be DRC soft. I think a strong case could be made for replacing 75-100% of our secondary. Boykin is the only guy I would definitely keep around. We still aren't sure what we have at defensive end.
The only placed where we seem to have known commodities are RB, DT, and 2 linebacker spots.
VICKtory
QUOTE (BirdsWinBaby @ Dec 7 2012, 07:14 AM) *
i thought if we learned anything else this year its that all the 'weapons' and all the 'talent' we have is overblown


Certainly not trying to say that we have the top talent in the league, but I'm saying with a great OL (if we draft Joeckel and get Peter's back that's a fair assumption) and two(?) great RB's, and no dire need at WR or TE I think Foles could do very well next year. And I would hate to see a high pick used on a WR when we really do need to bolster up our defense especially in a draft where S seems to be one of few deep positions.

Even though D is our number one priority I still believe that we can't pass up on Joeckel if he's availible, should be a top T in the league for years and we could have a dominant line over the next few.
mcnabbulous
Kelly has shown more as a OT than Foles has at QB, in my opinion.

On a side note, I find no coincidence in the fact that our line has played better with Foles than Vick.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Dec 7 2012, 06:30 PM) *
Kelly has shown more as a OT than Foles has at QB, in my opinion.

On a side note, I find no coincidence in the fact that our line has played better with Foles than Vick.


Since our demolishing by the Redskins, we've also called a shitload more running plays, taking some heat off of Foles and our o-line. Against Carolina we actually went 26-21 run-pass, and 34-26 pass-run against Dallas. We kept it close as a result, even though we (as a shitty team in general) still lost. Also we discovered a potential star in Brown.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Dec 7 2012, 07:49 PM) *
Since our demolishing by the Redskins, we've also called a shitload more running plays, taking some heat off of Foles and our o-line. Against Carolina we actually went 26-21 run-pass, and 34-26 pass-run against Dallas. We kept it close as a result, even though we (as a shitty team in general) still lost. Also we discovered a potential star in Brown.

I'm sure the fact that Brown is averaging more than twice as many yards per carry in those two contests (than McCoy against the Skins) had no impact on us running the ball more. Since we likely haven't found ourselves in significantly more running downs/situations.

The simple truth is that Brown is running the ball much more confidently than McCoy has all season. Based on the fact that Brown saw the majority of his playing time in the red zone, I think it's likely the coaches were aware of his talent. They're were likely also aware of his propensity for putting the ball on the turf. Which likely contributed to him not seeing more than a handful of touches per game.
Eyrie
QUOTE (VICKtory @ Dec 7 2012, 10:31 PM) *
Certainly not trying to say that we have the top talent in the league, but I'm saying with a great OL (if we draft Joeckel and get Peter's back that's a fair assumption) and two(?) great RB's, and no dire need at WR or TE I think Foles could do very well next year. And I would hate to see a high pick used on a WR when we really do need to bolster up our defense especially in a draft where S seems to be one of few deep positions.

Even though D is our number one priority I still believe that we can't pass up on Joeckel if he's availible, should be a top T in the league for years and we could have a dominant line over the next few.

Agree with this - fix the OL and the rest of the offense will take care of itself. That lets us focus on the defence in FA and rounds 2-4.
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