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eaglesphan27
It drives me crazy to hear week after week how we'll never find a better coach than A.R. First they all say that they are "friends" with him which says enough. Then we get lectured about how great a coach this guy is. We are Philly fans, what are they trying to pull??? Maybe if we were San Diego, Jacksonville, or Charlotte fans we'd actually buy it but not here! We know good football coaching and bad football coaching when we see it!! Screw the National media guys!!! There, got that off my chest. mad.gif
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (eaglesphan27 @ Nov 28 2012, 03:36 PM) *
It drives me crazy to hear week after week how we'll never find a better coach than A.R. First they all say that they are "friends" with him which says enough. Then we get lectured about how great a coach this guy is. We are Philly fans, what are they trying to pull??? Maybe if we were San Diego, Jacksonville, or Charlotte fans we'd actually buy it but not here! We know good football coaching and bad football coaching when we see it!! Screw the National media guys!!! There, got that off my chest. mad.gif


The national sports media, especially when it comes to the NFL, is basically one big circle jerk - most coaches have met personally, many have worked together, and they are legit friends - you'll never hear them shittalking each other. Don't let it bother you, the Walrus can guest host-MNF next year and talk about how awesome marty is, who cares.....
HobbEs
Good. Maybe the national media can find him a new job ASAP.
ClydeSide
Before the Carolina game, Mike Ditka said, "You Philly fans, let me tell you something. Andy Reid is a heck of a football coach. Be careful what you ask for!"

Here's what I want: I want a Belichick, or a Sean Payton, or a Mike Tonlin, or EVEN A TOM COUGHLIN!! The fact that the Giants have won 2 super bowls in 4 years makes me sick.

ONLY ONE TEAM IN THE NFC EAST HAS NEVER WON A SUPER BOWL. It is disgusting.

The reason that the national media loves Reid is that they know he is a loser. They all know when it comes down to it, Andy will blow it because he is a horrible gameday coach who can't even manage the effing clock. THEY LOVE ANDY BECAUSE THEY HATE PHILLY.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (ClydeSide @ Nov 28 2012, 08:36 PM) *
The reason that the national media loves Reid is that they know he is a loser. They all know when it comes down to it, Andy will blow it because he is a horrible gameday coach who can't even manage the effing clock. THEY LOVE ANDY BECAUSE THEY HATE PHILLY.


Partially correct. They also legitimately like him because of their relationship with him - while he thumbs his nose at the Philly media week in and out, he's quite different with the national media, which incluse gus he's worked with - plus he's friends with many of them. But yeah, I can't remember the last time I bumped into a Giants or Cowboys fan who hates Andy.
HobbEs
QUOTE
Before the Carolina game, Mike Ditka said, "You Philly fans, let me tell you something. Andy Reid is a heck of a football coach. Be careful what you ask for!"


Yo Mike, let me fix this for 'ya... "Andy Reid WAS a heck of a football coach BUT HIS TIME HERE IS UP". There, that sounds about right.

Now for the next part..."Be THANKFULL HE'S ALL BUT GONE AND ask for A COACH THAT CAN ACTUALLY MANAGE A GAME". Did I miss anything?
ClydeSide
QUOTE (HobbEs @ Nov 29 2012, 09:23 AM) *
Yo Mike, let me fix this for 'ya... "Andy Reid WAS a heck of a football coach BUT HIS TIME HERE IS UP". There, that sounds about right.

Now for the next part..."Be THANKFULL HE'S ALL BUT GONE AND ask for A COACH THAT CAN ACTUALLY MANAGE A GAME". Did I miss anything?


You didn't miss a thing. Well done.
TGryn
I get the dislike of Reid now that we're in the death throes of his tenure. However, he has more playoff wins than any coach in Eagles history, got us to the Super Bowl (only other coach to do that is Vermeil), and was responsible for one of the few sustained periods of winning the franchise has experienced.

He'll rank below Greasy Neale in terms of all-time greatest Eagles coach, but is right there with Vermeil and Shaw* in that 2nd tier. That's nothing to be ashamed of. He's out of time here, but that doesn't take away from what he accomplished here.

Franchise history suggests its unlikely the next guy will accomplish as much.


* - looking at his coaching record, Shaw's only in conversation because of the '60 championship, which had as much to do with veterans like Van Brocklin and Bednarik than any actual coaching. Before that, Shaw had a solid but not outstanding tenure as a coach. I guess a lot of it comes down to how much weight one gives his one championship season.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (TGryn @ Nov 29 2012, 01:31 PM) *
I guess a lot of it comes down to how much weight one gives his one championship season.


All the weight in the world, as it should be to any Eagles fan - especially those of us who were 2 decades from being born the last time they won one.

Reid's tenure will never be associated with 'success' down the road, more likely 'close but no cigar' will be more often thought of. Maybe that's fair and maybe it isn't, but that's just the way it is.
ClydeSide
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Nov 29 2012, 02:33 PM) *
All the weight in the world, as it should be to any Eagles fan - especially those of us who were 2 decades from being born the last time they won one.

Reid's tenure will never be associated with 'success' down the road, more likely 'close but no cigar' will be more often thought of. Maybe that's fair and maybe it isn't, but that's just the way it is.


Good game plans, terrible game management.
eaglesphan27
Installing a defensive line coach and methodology BEFORE putting any defensive coordinator in place is just plain ridiculous. Like Castillo or not, that move by A.R. definitely handicaps any coordinator from doing an effective job. That will be my lasting memory of our "great coach".
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (eaglesphan27 @ Nov 29 2012, 04:13 PM) *
Installing a defensive line coach and methodology BEFORE putting any defensive coordinator in place is just plain ridiculous. Like Castillo or not, that move by A.R. definitely handicaps any coordinator from doing an effective job. That will be my lasting memory of our "great coach".

It was definitely, in hindsight, a terrible decision. I've argued that Castillo only got the job because no one else wanted it for that very reason.

In Andy's defense, our signing of Washburn was applauded by nearly everyone at the time. Most people considered him to be the defacto DC for that reason. I think Andy had always had issues against Tenn, respected Washburn, and hoped it would have a similar experience to bringing in JJ.

Obviously not.

My lasting memory of Reid will be a very good coach who never sufficiently replaced our legendary DC (whom he handpicked and deserves credit for identifying) and never got the QB play needed to win a championship after '04.

I also think he was a poor evaluator of talent (specifically defensively) and is good at building a team.
TGryn
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Nov 29 2012, 12:33 PM) *
All the weight in the world, as it should be to any Eagles fan - especially those of us who were 2 decades from being born the last time they won one.

See, I don't buy into the argument that a championship is some magical chrism that automatically makes you a genius. Guys like George Allen and Bud Grant were clearly better coaches than some who have won a Super Bowl, once. (Billick, Gruden, etc.)
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Nov 29 2012, 12:33 PM) *
Reid's tenure will never be associated with 'success' down the road, more likely 'close but no cigar' will be more often thought of. Maybe that's fair and maybe it isn't, but that's just the way it is.
Vermeil isn't thought of that way, and he accomplished less. I think a lot also depends on how the successor does: the best thing that ever happened to Buddy's reputation here was being succeeded by Kotite.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (TGryn @ Nov 29 2012, 08:24 PM) *
the best thing that ever happened to Buddy's reputation here was being succeeded by Kotite.

Who didn't have a fraction of the success of Reid, despite having the greatest defense in the game's history.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (TGryn @ Nov 29 2012, 08:24 PM) *
Vermeil isn't thought of that way, and he accomplished less


After about 2 decades of complete humiliation, he beat a great Cowboys team en route to the Super Bowl. He also won a Super Bowl elsewhere. Reid's predictable gameplan got us slaughtered in 2 consecutive games against the Cowboys, including the playoffs.

Certainly you would recognize how important that is to Eagles fans.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Nov 29 2012, 08:36 PM) *
Who didn't have a fraction of the success of Reid, despite having the greatest defense in the game's history.


If by 'success' you mean 'beating a mediocre team in the first round only to lose in heartbreaking fashion in the nfccg,' then you're correct, and you've been listening to Joe Banner.

Buddy had to deal with some of the best NFC East teams ever assembled, not to mention an always strong conference. During our 'run of success,' we steamrolled over the crap of the NFC (and the NFC East was a joke), and lost to the one or two elite teams in the NFC we had to play in the playoffs. The only time we went to the Super Bowl was when we followed up a visit by the 8-8 Vikings with Michael Vick's slightly-above-average Falcons, in quite possibly the worst NFC ever in 2004.

On top of that, Buddy had to deal with Norman Braman, who wouldn't even make an offer to the greatest defensive lineman in NFL history. I may not be a huge Lurie fan, but he certainly has written checks to build a team here. Buddy's draft picks made that team, he had a long line of killer picks.
mcnabbulous
I'm not going to waste my time explaining why, under any circumstances, Andy's 10 playoff wins are more impressive than Buddy's zero.

I've already said that Reid would have benefited from stronger drafts. Coaches have never been successful with that duel role. I have no idea if Buddy was drafting players back in the day, but if that was the case, he clearly did a better job than Reid...but it didn't help too much come playoff time.
Eyrie
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Nov 30 2012, 05:55 AM) *
I'm not going to waste my time explaining why, under any circumstances, Andy's 10 playoff wins are more impressive than Buddy's zero.

That even needed said? ohmy.gif
JaxEagle
QUOTE (eaglesphan27 @ Nov 28 2012, 03:36 PM) *
It drives me crazy to hear week after week how we'll never find a better coach than A.R. First they all say that they are "friends" with him which says enough. Then we get lectured about how great a coach this guy is. We are Philly fans, what are they trying to pull??? Maybe if we were San Diego, Jacksonville, or Charlotte fans we'd actually buy it but not here! We know good football coaching and bad football coaching when we see it!! Screw the National media guys!!! There, got that off my chest. mad.gif

First, Andy should be respected and appreciated. His time is winding down here but if you are objective and look at the whole picture then there's no arguing his career. Could he be over the hill just a little bit? Perhaps but that will be another team's issue, not ours.

And further, the implication that fans in Jax aren't as intelligent as fans in Philly is ignorant. Philly fans are more supportive and more passionate about the NFL and pro sports in general but the fans in Jax and Charlotte know football. They just tend to point their focus at Gators and Gamecocks and Seminoles. So, it's not like the national media can just feed a bunch of crap to the average Jaguar fan and have them buy into it like the national media feeds the average american the obama shit and they are ignorant enough to buy that crap.... ooops.... I'm not allowed to say that am I?
HobbEs
QUOTE
I'm not going to waste my time explaining why, under any circumstances, Andy's 10 playoff wins are more impressive than Buddy's zero.


Buddy was pompous and arrogant...Reid also is pompous and arrogant. The thing is Buddy connected with the fans where Andy doesnt't give a shit about the fans. That is the main reason why Buddy is still revered here.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (HobbEs @ Nov 30 2012, 09:22 AM) *
Andy doesnt't give a shit about the fans.

This is ridiculous. Based on what? Because he doesn't throw guys under the bus during press conferences?
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Nov 30 2012, 09:25 AM) *
This is ridiculous. Based on what? Because he doesn't throw guys under the bus during press conferences?


Tell that to David Akers
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Nov 30 2012, 10:10 AM) *
Tell that to David Akers

You have one example in 14 years, and it was pretty borderline in the whole scheme of things. He correctly stated that the 6 points we lost on field goals would have been helpful in a playoff loss.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Nov 30 2012, 12:55 AM) *
I'm not going to waste my time explaining why, under any circumstances, Andy's 10 playoff wins are more impressive than Buddy's zero.


10 is better than zero - but you didn't say that - you said Ryan had not even a fraction of the success Reid did. We have different definitions of success apparently.

Which of Reid's playoff wins are you going to talk about with your grandchildren when they become old enough? The time where we beat the 8-8 Vikings? The 23-11 win over the Giants?

Decades from now this era will be known for one thing: failure. Buddy will always be remembered for giving the finger to 'America's Team'
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Nov 30 2012, 10:46 AM) *
10 is better than zero - but you didn't say that - you said Ryan had not even a fraction of the success Reid did. We have different definitions of success apparently.

Success in the NFL is winning playoff games, without question. Buddy never once achieved that, despite having the greatest defense of all time.

QUOTE
Which of Reid's playoff wins are you going to talk about with your grandchildren when they become old enough? The time where we beat the 8-8 Vikings? The 23-11 win over the Giants?

At least I would have some to choose from. You don't think beating our biggest rival in the playoffs is an accomplishment? Because Andy did it twice. Once with a backup QB.

You can try to spin it however you'd like. Andy is the greatest coach this franchise has ever been afforded.

QUOTE
Decades from now this era will be known for one thing: failure. Buddy will always be remembered for giving the finger to 'America's Team'

I think you're wrong. Decades from now, this era will likely be looked upon fondly. Very often do teams have this much sustained success. So much so that you forget how bad things can actually be...and for how long.

I wish we had a better front office in place, which I believe would have helped to keep things going longer, but it was a hell of a run.
TGryn
QUOTE (HobbEs @ Nov 30 2012, 07:22 AM) *
Buddy was pompous and arrogant...Reid also is pompous and arrogant. The thing is Buddy connected with the fans where Andy doesnt't give a shit about the fans. That is the main reason why Buddy is still revered here.

That's the problem, though: one can't take the stance "He didn't win the Super Bowl, and that's all that counts" against Reid, then still have good feelings about Buddy. In terms of Super Bowl success, Buddy had a tremendously talented group that he couldn't even get one playoff win out of.

If not winning the Super Bowl was OK for Buddy, then its OK for Reid too. And Reid at least got them there. Buddy's colorful ways doesn't change that he was a terrible failure here in terms of building a Super Bowl contender.
TGryn
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Nov 29 2012, 10:22 PM) *
After about 2 decades of complete humiliation, he beat a great Cowboys team en route to the Super Bowl. He also won a Super Bowl elsewhere. Reid's predictable gameplan got us slaughtered in 2 consecutive games against the Cowboys, including the playoffs.

I love Vermeil, but he didn't accomplish nearly what Reid did here. DV burned out, but that also saved his reputation because he didn't have to deal with the repercussions as the '80 Super Bowl vets aged out of effectiveness (that was left to Campbell to sort out). Reid didn't leave after '04, the SB team aged and had to be replaced, and we're seeing now what would likely have been the end of the Vermeil era if he'd continued as coach. Building a Super Bowl team is very hard; doing it twice for the same franchise is nearly impossible, as we've seen. The only coaches I can think of to do that were Landry, Walsh, and Gibbs; I'd consider Noll, Belichick, and Coughlin's multiple wins as being with more or less the same roster, not a new set of players.
HobbEs
QUOTE
This is ridiculous. Based on what? Because he doesn't throw guys under the bus during press conferences?


He doesn't have to. It's his whole demeaner...that whole "I'm smarter than everyone else" attitude. And if you don't know what I'm talking about then you haven't paid attention the last decade or so. (But I know you know what I mean).

We had Charles Johnson and Torrance Small and got the "we don't need a #1 receiver".
We let go of Emmons and Trotter and got "linebackers aren't important in our scheme".
We let go of Dawkins. Enough said!

I won't even go into clock management and in-game coaching. It's true that he's had great success and will leave as the winningest coach in Eagles history. But why is it that Vermeil got to a SB and lost and yet is revered around here? Why is Buddy still loved? It's because they had a special connection with the fan base. That's something Andy either never understood or never cared for.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (TGryn @ Nov 30 2012, 11:11 AM) *
I love Vermeil, but he didn't accomplish nearly what Reid did here


Again, to me someone's legacy is all about what people talk about 20 years after the fact. I was born in '81, so Vermeil is little more than the subject of some stories my father told me about when he watched Eagles games, and the guy that coached the Chiefs and Rams, winning a Super Bowl. But that's my whole point - he talks about Vermeil glowingly, and Ryan as well.

Are we going to talk about this era with reverence? If so, what are you going to say? The best win we've had from a viewpoint of advancement is beating the completely overrated Falcons to go to the Super Bowl. I'm going to tell my kids about what it was like to watch the Phillies win the World Series for the first time in my life - not what it was like to freeze my ass off while watching Ronde Barber run a pick 6 back to seal the deal.....

This era will be known for failure because we SHOULD'VE won at least one, and Reid's glaring flaws as a game manager are what prevented that. Vermeil and Ryan were inferior overall coaches, but they got more out of less, and exceeded expectations - Reid fell short. That's about as simple as I can sum it up.

P.S. Has Hobbes mentioned, his attitude sure as shit hasn't helped. The whole 'I'm smarter than everyone who's ever lived' BS
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Nov 30 2012, 12:20 PM) *
This era will be known for failure because we SHOULD'VE won at least one

Which year?
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Nov 30 2012, 12:25 PM) *
Which year?


Take your pick. After all, with all of this success, you should have plenty to choose from.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Nov 30 2012, 12:31 PM) *
Take your pick. After all, with all of this success, you should have plenty to choose from.

Our two best teams were in 2002 and 2004. 2002 Donovan broke his leg, which is the biggest thing that contributed to us losing.

2004, we lost to a very good Patriots team, who possibly cheated.

You have to be good and get a bit lucky. We weren't very lucky in 2002, which in my opinion, was the only year we were the best team in the league.
Phits
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Nov 30 2012, 12:31 PM) *
Take your pick. After all, with all of this success, you should have plenty to choose from.

laugh.gif
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Nov 30 2012, 12:34 PM) *
Our two best teams were in 2002 and 2004. 2002 Donovan broke his leg, which is the biggest thing that contributed to us losing.

2004, we lost to a very good Patriots team, who possibly cheated.

You have to be good and get a bit lucky. We weren't very lucky in 2002, which in my opinion, was the only year we were the best team in the league.


02, 03, 04, 08 were all years we oculd've legitimately won the Super Bowl. There were a couple other years we could've reasonably 'gotten hot' and run the table ala the '08 Giants. Point being, do you really think we shouldn't have won at least one? If there's anything Eagles fans should all be able to agree on, it's that.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Nov 30 2012, 12:44 PM) *
02, 03, 04, 08 were all years we oculd've legitimately won the Super Bowl.

02 - Our QB and best offensive player broke his leg and clearly wasn't the same guy when he came back. It was our best team. It was a shitty break, but we lost to an all-time great defense. It happens.
03 - I agree, we could have won a SB this year. We got a bit unlucky when we lost Westbrook for the season. Then Donovan fucked up his ribs on the first series of the game. Anyone that has suffered a rib injury can understand his performance there after.
04 - We lost to a dynasty Patriots team with one of the best QB's of all-time.

Anything after 04, Donovan and our defense were too inconsistent. We weren't a very good team in 08. We went on a nice run, but the Steelers were a far better team.

QUOTE
There were a couple other years we could've reasonably 'gotten hot' and run the table ala the '08 Giants. Point being, do you really think we shouldn't have won at least one? If there's anything Eagles fans should all be able to agree on, it's that.

Like I said, after '04, I have no confidence that Donovan could consistently put together 4 quarters, let alone 4 games to win a SB. We could have won a SB any year up until '04, but that doesn't mean we should have.


Eyrie
Can't believe I'm sticking up for Reid here, but a question to the Ryan supporters.

If Buddy Ryan was such a good coach, why could he not even manage ONE playoff win in his entire career here given the playing talent he had? Reid even managed it with some weak teams (eg 2000).
Phits
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Dec 1 2012, 07:41 AM) *
Can't believe I'm sticking up for Reid here, but a question to the Ryan supporters.

If Buddy Ryan was such a good coach, why could he not even manage ONE playoff win in his entire career here given the playing talent he had? Reid even managed it with some weak teams (eg 2000).

I don't think the appreciation for Ryan is a result of his on field success. I believe it is because he embodies that hard working blue collar Philly mentality. He wasn't afraid to mince words and (appeared) to give all he had. He was also responsible for one of the greatest defenses of all time.

Even his "from the gut" comments are classic. You don't get those from Reid. A stoic stare and BS response are his staples. While it may be the 'appropriate' response, sometimes you just need to see the animated side in a post game conference.

When you don't have SB championships to reference you find the other things that make the sport worth while.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Nov 29 2012, 02:33 PM) *
All the weight in the world, as it should be to any Eagles fan - especially those of us who were 2 decades from being born the last time they won one.

Reid's tenure will never be associated with 'success' down the road, more likely 'close but no cigar' will be more often thought of. Maybe that's fair and maybe it isn't, but that's just the way it is.


hmmmm.....like Vermiel?....oh wait.....

The simple truth of the matter is that a small but vocal minority come to boards like this or waste free time whining on talk radio about this stuff meanwhile the large majority will appreciate the guy for what he did. Hell, while many were whining here about McNabb the greater Philly area was voting him one of the most popular years ago. People put too much stock in the bitching and moaning of the few. Is Reid's time up here? Of course but he will be remembered fondly by the large majority of fans for his work here.
Eyrie
QUOTE (Phits @ Dec 1 2012, 06:28 PM) *
I don't think the appreciation for Ryan is a result of his on field success. I believe it is because he embodies that hard working blue collar Philly mentality. He wasn't afraid to mince words and (appeared) to give all he had. He was also responsible for one of the greatest defenses of all time.

Even his "from the gut" comments are classic. You don't get those from Reid. A stoic stare and BS response are his staples. While it may be the 'appropriate' response, sometimes you just need to see the animated side in a post game conference.

When you don't have SB championships to reference you find the other things that make the sport worth while.

But ultimately the Eagles are here to win championships and not to provide us with amusing press conferences. The reason I've wanted Reid gone for some time is because he's unable to correct his own weaknesses that handicap our chances of success.

In the absence of a SuperBowl, I find division titles, good Eagles performances or at least wins* to be the other things that make following this team worthwhile. I'll concede though that over here I'd have to actively look for Reid's press conferences to have something to complain about rather than reading them in the papers, but then I tend to screen out what Pat Fenlon (manager of my football team Hibs) says in his interviews. I don't expect controversy and tend to regard those football managers who look to generate headlines as slightly pathetic. They should concentrate on putting the best team out that they can.



*I've been an Eagles fan for that long I can remember when we last won a game.
Zero
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Dec 2 2012, 06:07 AM) *
*I've been an Eagles fan for that long I can remember when we last won a game.

I hope that isn't the winning submission for your signature. tongue.gif
Eyrie
QUOTE (Zero @ Dec 2 2012, 12:10 PM) *
I hope that isn't the winning submission for your signature. tongue.gif

Fuck it - why not? biggrin.gif
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