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JaxEagle
I don't think we can evaluate Foles as bad as this team is. We have no strengths. Amazing. I certainly won't go as far as saying Foles can't do it. He is so handicapped its hard to tell.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (JaxEagle @ Nov 26 2012, 11:42 PM) *
I don't think we can evaluate Foles as bad as this team is. We have no strengths. Amazing. I certainly won't go as far as saying Foles can't do it. He is so handicapped its hard to tell.


I thought the line played adequately tonight. He made several terrible decisions. I'm not sure what to think. Obviously he has the physical stuff. Not sure about the rest.
JaxEagle
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Nov 26 2012, 11:47 PM) *
I thought the line played adequately tonight. He made several terrible decisions. I'm not sure what to think. Obviously he has the physical stuff. Not sure about the rest.

No argument the o line looked better but the panthers are also bad. I agree re: Foles. My point is just that I think we have to reserve judgement.
Dreagon
He has potential.

He needs to put a little more zip on his balls when he's trying to fit it in between defenders. But that comes with weight rooms and experience.

So far, most of his problems could simply be the result of being a third round rookie who may have been put in a little early in his career. Guys like Luck and RG3 are first and second picks for a reason...they are those very rare QBs who come in starter ready, and they still have kinks of their own to work out.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (JaxEagle @ Nov 26 2012, 11:42 PM) *
I don't think we can evaluate Foles as bad as this team is. We have no strengths. Amazing. I certainly won't go as far as saying Foles can't do it. He is so handicapped its hard to tell.


On the bright side, when we actually have a running game next year McCoy and Brown should be a good 1-2 punch, maybe Brown would even make good trade bait - has to hold onto to the ball though.....
ClydeSide
QUOTE (JaxEagle @ Nov 26 2012, 11:42 PM) *
I don't think we can evaluate Foles as bad as this team is. We have no strengths. Amazing. I certainly won't go as far as saying Foles can't do it. He is so handicapped its hard to tell.


He needs to be in a vertical passing system (ala Sid Gillman/Coryell/Noll/Zampesi/Gibbs/Norv Turner). Remember Cunningham slingin it for Billick in MN? McNabb would have been much better in that scheme too.

Foles has the arm if he has the time--and we have the downfield receivers. We need to simplify the passing scheme and put a power running back (maybe Brown and Polk) in the backfield.

Parcells says: WE BELIEVE IN FIELD READS & MAX PROTECTION FOR OUR QBS!


make_it_rain
He made some pretty bad decisions....but I guess thats to be expected from a rookie. I'm not really optimistic, but I agree its tough to evaluate him through the lens of this horrible, horrible team.

At this point, I think we don't really have a choice to keep him around, for no real reason other than lack of alternatives.

Vick is due back next season but we'd essentially be paying $15 million to a loser who is now one year older and one year less relevant in the NFL. No thanks. Foles may end up sucking, but why blow $15 million on a guy who will get us the same net result (e.g no playoffs). That said, I guess there is some chance they would bring him back, assuming Vick is OK with massively restructuring his deal.

Lack of free agents - There are no real starting calibre QBs set to become free agents this season. The only two I can think of that would be on the market are Flacco and maybe Alex Smith. There's no way in hell the Ravens are going to let Flacco walk, so the only real "starter" that would be available is Alex Smith ( who I don't think would be terrible given the atlernatives, but that's another discussion)

This years draft class = Not very good for QBs. Barkley has bust written all over him. Geno Smith has looked brilliant at times and pretty meh at other. This year's draft is much deeper at positions where the birds have some major needs (Tackle, Safety), so I think we'd be better off loading up at those positions and hoping whoever we have at QB plays "good enough" and won't turn the ball over.
BirdsWinBaby
I wouldn't judge Foles too harshly given the state of the team, i will say however that I just don't see what all the hype is about. Most of the rookie QBs that come into the league destined for some team's bench can make some plays. People keep talking About Foles "big arm" but whenever he throws long its either short or inaccurate.

He was a 3rd rounder for a reason. He may yet become a serviceable QB in the NFL or he may not
D Rock
I agree with what most are saying here. It's tough to judge foles with the train wreck he's forced to play with....

BUT ...

He was doing what is for me, a major red flag in locking onto and staring down his primary. He was coming off his primary receiver way too late which is a huge concern in my book. Now, he's a rookie and didn't have this issue in the preseason for what (if anything) that's worth.

I like his size, arm and many of the intangibles. He seems to see the field at times. At others, he's not reading his keys. How a QB can apparently not see a safety is beyond me as that's his primary key in more situations than not. He had about 3 great plays and 6 very bad ones as I saw it.

One thing for certain is that I'd play him over Vick the rest of the way.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (BirdsWinBaby @ Nov 27 2012, 10:08 AM) *
I wouldn't judge Foles too harshly given the state of the team, i will say however that I just don't see what all the hype is about. Most of the rookie QBs that come into the league destined for some team's bench can make some plays. People keep talking About Foles "big arm" but whenever he throws long its either short or inaccurate.

He was a 3rd rounder for a reason. He may yet become a serviceable QB in the NFL or he may not


I think his deep throws are short because they're coming out late. Much like far too many of his shorter throws. At times, he seemed to read the play well. For the most part, he seemed very late with his reads.
The run audibles were nice though. Haven't seem much success with that when Vick has been under center. Donnie used to handle that pretty well.
D Rock
I disagree. Donnie was terrible with audibles. Whenever you saw him make a check, you could be sure it'd be a 2 yard gain.

And jeezus kee riste !!!! Ever since 2000 we all knew that when the QB patted his own bum while calling a check, it was a run. How can they not change this after all these years.
Zero
Foles will likely be competing for #1 in OTAs and TC next year. I don't think he got too much "special" attention this year. Gruden says he's smart and he's had a taste of starting plus a new coach will likely call plays to protect his youth using guys like Shady, Brown, et al to set the table and make those play action calls legit.

For me, the big unknown is the OL. Will Peters be back to form? Will Kelce be OK and/or a starter in another system? How about Herremans? Maybe Watkins can do well in another system.
ClydeSide
QUOTE (Zero @ Nov 27 2012, 04:46 PM) *
Foles will likely be competing for #1 in OTAs and TC next year. I don't think he got too much "special" attention this year. Gruden says he's smart and he's had a taste of starting plus a new coach will likely call plays to protect his youth using guys like Shady, Brown, et al to set the table and make those play action calls legit.

For me, the big unknown is the OL. Will Peters be back to form? Will Kelce be OK and/or a starter in another system? How about Herremans? Maybe Watkins can do well in another system.
n it

We need a simpler and more effective offense. It takes QBs years to learn Reid/Mornhenweg's WCO. That's too long. It is way too technical. We need bigger linemen, bigger receivers and max protect the QB. The only offense to kill the QB like this was Mike Martz's. I think of what Zampesi did for Aikman--and what Mularkey/Whisenhunt did for Rothlisberger. SIMPLIFY and outman them. Also, get rid of this Howard Mudd O-line. It worked for Peyton Manning--but where ya gonna get one of them?
BirdsWinBaby
QUOTE (ClydeSide @ Nov 27 2012, 06:29 PM) *
get rid of this Howard Mudd


man i hope so
Rick
Can't tell how good/bad he'll be yet but it is disturbing how he's throwing the ball at times. He shows brilliance at times but then throws balls which should be intercepted when pressured. Now, I don't know if this is just because he's a rookie or if he's like Romo who freaks under pressure and throws the ball to anyone.

He has the mechanics. He seems to have the smarts. Just not sure if he'll put it all together and stop making the mistakes he's making. Of course, it's only his 2nd start so it's tough to tell.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (D Rock @ Nov 27 2012, 03:08 PM) *
I disagree. Donnie was terrible with audibles. Whenever you saw him make a check, you could be sure it'd be a 2 yard gain.

I should have prefaced it with early Donnie. Oddly, that success seemed to diminish over time.

QUOTE
And jeezus kee riste !!!! Ever since 2000 we all knew that when the QB patted his own bum while calling a check, it was a run. How can they not change this after all these years.

Maybe this is why.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (make_it_rain @ Nov 27 2012, 09:37 AM) *
This year's draft is much deeper at positions where the birds have some major needs (Tackle, Safety), so I think we'd be better off loading up at those positions and hoping whoever we have at QB plays "good enough" and won't turn the ball over.


jumpclap.gif

That's why I wouldn't mind Alex Smith, who will DEF be looking for a starting job in the NFC to shove it up his old team's ass - give him protection and a solid running back and he can take you to the Super Bowl (just catch your punts), we don't need a Tom Brady.

OL and safety - if we plug those two holes, we're immediately back in the mix. Yeah they're gigantic holes, but they're fixable in one year, especially with all the money we're gonna save on dead weight being cut at the end of the year.
ClydeSide
QUOTE (BirdsWinBaby @ Nov 27 2012, 06:13 PM) *
man i hope so


We need to physically dominate both sides of the line of scrimmage--we are getting pushed all over the field.
Eyrie
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Nov 28 2012, 01:41 AM) *
OL and safety - if we plug those two holes, we're immediately back in the mix. Yeah they're gigantic holes, but they're fixable in one year, especially with all the money we're gonna save on dead weight being cut at the end of the year.



QUOTE (ClydeSide @ Nov 28 2012, 02:33 AM) *
We need to physically dominate both sides of the line of scrimmage--we are getting pushed all over the field.

Looks like we're going to get a chance at the top T in the draft.
ClydeSide
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Nov 28 2012, 02:39 PM) *
Looks like we're going to get a chance at the top T in the draft.


Basic football: Give me Anthony Munoz and the QB can sleep at night.
Zero
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Nov 28 2012, 02:39 PM) *
Looks like we're going to get a chance at the top T in the draft.

Man, if Peters can return to form on the left and they add a stud on the right ...
ClydeSide
QUOTE (BirdsWinBaby @ Nov 27 2012, 10:08 AM) *
I wouldn't judge Foles too harshly given the state of the team, i will say however that I just don't see what all the hype is about. Most of the rookie QBs that come into the league destined for some team's bench can make some plays. People keep talking About Foles "big arm" but whenever he throws long its either short or inaccurate.

He was a 3rd rounder for a reason. He may yet become a serviceable QB in the NFL or he may not

Chip Kelly coach of Oregon faced Foles a number of times--and WAS VERY IMPRESSED. Especially since they didn't have much talent at AZ.
ClydeSide
QUOTE (BirdsWinBaby @ Nov 27 2012, 10:08 AM) *
I wouldn't judge Foles too harshly given the state of the team, i will say however that I just don't see what all the hype is about. Most of the rookie QBs that come into the league destined for some team's bench can make some plays. People keep talking About Foles "big arm" but whenever he throws long its either short or inaccurate.

He was a 3rd rounder for a reason. He may yet become a serviceable QB in the NFL or he may not

He's gun shy and arm throwing--not getting his base set and his momentum behind him. A good offensiv line would fix that--and some more time in the weight room.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (ClydeSide @ Nov 29 2012, 08:47 PM) *
Basic football: Give me Anthony Munoz and the QB can sleep at night.

Most people would say the best tackles in football are Joe Thomas (CLE) and Jake Long MIA.) Peters is certainly up there...

Having great tackle play is significantly less important than having a top-notch QB.

Without looking, can anyone name the two starting tackles on any of the top teams in football?
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Nov 30 2012, 09:30 AM) *
Without looking, can anyone name the two starting tackles on any of the top teams in football?

Is it a popularity contest? Win the line of scrimmage and you will (normally) win the game.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Nov 30 2012, 09:44 AM) *
Is it a popularity contest? Win the line of scrimmage and you will (normally) win the game.

It's an old wives tale. You don't need great tackles to win championships. You need a great QB. Obviously, having great tackles is an asset, but there is no recent history of having success after spending high draft picks on them.

It's not a popularity contest, but the most "popular" and high drafted guys just happen to be on shitty teams. So that should tell you how important the position is in turning teams into winners.
JaxEagle
QUOTE (Zero @ Nov 30 2012, 08:31 AM) *
Man, if Peters can return to form on the left and they add a stud on the right ...


True, but two large IFs
JaxEagle
QUOTE (ClydeSide @ Nov 30 2012, 08:57 AM) *
He's gun shy and arm throwing--not getting his base set and his momentum behind him. A good offensiv line would fix that--and some more time in the weight room.

I'm not concerned about improvement in the gun-shy factor. I'd be very surprised if experience, physical maturity and better line play don't eliminate that issue. Heck Blaine Gabbert was scared as hell last year and this year he was vastly improved in that area and didn't even have any better line to go with it - just one year of experience.
ClydeSide
QUOTE (JaxEagle @ Nov 30 2012, 09:57 AM) *
I'm not concerned about improvement in the gun-shy factor. I'd be very surprised if experience, physical maturity and better line play don't eliminate that issue. Heck Blaine Gabbert was scared as hell last year and this year he was vastly improved in that area and didn't even have any better line to go with it - just one year of experience.


Remember David Klingler for the Bengals 92-95? He started his second year and got destroyed by a terrible offensive line. HE WAS NEVER THE SAME. He could never focus again. He bounced around for a few years and then was gone. SUCH A WASTE of talent.

At the Univ of Houston, he was on of the best QB prospects of all time--threw for 9500 yards, NCAA record for touchdowns in a year (54), and in one game threw 11 TDs!!! Ty Detmer beat him for the Heisman LOL.

I would hate to see Foles "klinglerized."
BirdsWinBaby
The history of the NFL is flooded with "impressive" college players who hold the clipbrd for 5 seasons, get into games in occasional backup roles and show "flashes"

Assuming he looks like just another guy due to his oline play is reasonable ( even if you disregard the bad decisions he makes when he has time) but it does nothing to solidify high hopes that he will dazzle with a better line
JaxEagle
QUOTE (ClydeSide @ Nov 30 2012, 02:04 PM) *
Remember David Klingler for the Bengals 92-95? He started his second year and got destroyed by a terrible offensive line. HE WAS NEVER THE SAME. He could never focus again. He bounced around for a few years and then was gone. SUCH A WASTE of talent.

At the Univ of Houston, he was on of the best QB prospects of all time--threw for 9500 yards, NCAA record for touchdowns in a year (54), and in one game threw 11 TDs!!! Ty Detmer beat him for the Heisman LOL.

I would hate to see Foles "klinglerized."


Yes, but Klingler had average velocity and Foles has above average so hopefully this will help Foles and we won't get him killed before he has the time to develop.
ClydeSide
QUOTE (BirdsWinBaby @ Nov 30 2012, 02:26 PM) *
The history of the NFL is flooded with "impressive" college players who hold the clipbrd for 5 seasons, get into games in occasional backup roles and show "flashes"

Assuming he looks like just another guy due to his oline play is reasonable ( even if you disregard the bad decisions he makes when he has time) but it does nothing to solidify high hopes that he will dazzle with a better line


There are never any guarantees.

But what I like when I watch Foles on film is that his height helps him see the whole field. Also, he is mobile in the pocket and hard to arm tackle. He can make the short throws with touch and he leads the runner. Remember McNabb throwing the ball behind Westbrook all the time? But what he can really do when he has the time is lay the long ball out there with air under it--allowing the receiver to gain leverage. So many of McNabb's long passes were thrown like lasers with no arc to them. That did not allow the receiver to adjust to the ball as it came down. Now, having said all that---we shal see. wink.gif
BirdsWinBaby
QUOTE (ClydeSide @ Nov 27 2012, 10:33 PM) *
We need to physically dominate both sides of the line of scrimmage--we are getting pushed all over the field.


And today from the 'you can't fire me cuz I quit' files...

Read on Philly.com that Howard mudd has confirmed that he will go back into retirement after this year

Don't let the door hitya
ClydeSide
QUOTE (BirdsWinBaby @ Nov 30 2012, 03:43 PM) *
And today from the 'you can't fire me cuz I quit' files...

Read on Philly.com that Howard mudd has confirmed that he will go back into retirement after this year

Don't let the door hitya


tru dat
CT_Eagle
QUOTE (BirdsWinBaby @ Nov 30 2012, 08:43 PM) *
And today from the 'you can't fire me cuz I quit' files...

Read on Philly.com that Howard mudd has confirmed that he will go back into retirement after this year

Don't let the door hitya



I will not shed any tears over this. He was gone anyway. I highly doubt a new head coach would have kept him around anyway.
Zero
QUOTE (ClydeSide @ Nov 30 2012, 04:03 PM) *
tru dat

Yeah, but I read it more as he sees the Titanic going down and opts for the lifeboat.
Eyrie
A top QB can play well behind an average line, and an average QB will look good behind a top OL. But a bad OL will make a good QB look average at best, and make an average QB look like shit.

There's no top prospect at QB next year, so let's fix the line and see what we've got with Foles or a veteran.


QUOTE (BirdsWinBaby @ Nov 30 2012, 08:43 PM) *
And today from the 'you can't fire me cuz I quit' files...

Read on Philly.com that Howard mudd has confirmed that he will go back into retirement after this year

Don't let the door hitya

Washburn will be next. Teams that couldn't cope with the Wide 9 last year have figured it out this season.
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