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TGryn
This is from a thread over at KFFL which was basically a chicken-or-egg argument over whether Kolb's struggles were because he just wasn't good enough, or whether he didn't have much of a supporting cast, especially on the OL. Here's my main argument/research.
Context: including today's game, we've currently given up 14 sacks in 5 games, or an average of 2.8 sacks/game:
QUOTE
If we actually look at the numbers for the guys you're holding out as "good QB" examples - P. Manning, Aikman, and E. Manning - their passing ratings are negatively correlated with their sacks suffered per game. To take Peyton as an example, his four best passing years were seasons where he had less than 1.1 sacks/game; his three worst years passing were the years where his sacks/game were the highest (1.4 to 1.8), which also happens to be his first three years in the league. He didn't get elite-good until the Colts OL came together, and for some guys like Carr and Couch, that didn't happen before they were so banged up that their careers as starters were over.

Going further, note that neither Eli nor Payton ever absorbed 2 sacks per game for a season, and Aikman only had three years like that (with two of those being in his 2nd and 3rd years) and none higher than 2.6/gm. By contrast, Carr averaged 3-4 sacks/game for three out of his first four seasons (he played only partially in '03 due to shoulder problems) and set the sack record his rookie year with 76. Couch had two out of his first years where he suffered over 3 sacks/game (like Carr, he missed a good part of his sophomore season in '00 due to injury, in Couch's case a broken thumb). So, it seems there's a threshold somewhere around absorbing 3 sacks per game or higher where a young QB's development gets crushed and he can't "overcome" a poor OL.

Kolb's numbers? The two years he's started, 2010 (Eagles) and 2011 (Cards), he's suffered 3 and 3.3 sacks per game, respectively. I rest my case.
D Rock
Defensive pressure goes way dwn in production w Foles because: he doesn't hold onto the ball like Vick, he appeared to have solid pocket awareness and the ability to feel the rush and make those subtle moves without bailing out on the play, and finally ... history has shown that Andy would likely call a consistently more balanced game plan w the rook in there.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 14 2012, 07:48 PM) *
Defensive pressure goes way dwn in production w Foles because: he doesn't hold onto the ball like Vick, he appeared to have solid pocket awareness and the ability to feel the rush and make those subtle moves without bailing out on the play, and finally ... history has shown that Andy would likely call a consistently more balanced game plan w the rook in there.



yes...since we have seen so much of him against top talent that actually game plans for the contest...you have no clue how Foles will react when the bullets fly for real against a team that is actually worried about winning and not tuning up for the season. The only positive that comes with Foles is that it lends some certainty that the Vick experiment is over and that would be good if for no other reason than some of the whiny bitching here would stop for a week or so and then all those who cried for Foles would act as if they never did and bitch about him....hell, I hope the cut the whole team and start over
Dr. Claw
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 14 2012, 11:18 PM) *
yes...since we have seen so much of him against top talent that actually game plans for the contest...you have no clue how Foles will react when the bullets fly for real against a team that is actually worried about winning and not tuning up for the season. The only positive that comes with Foles is that it lends some certainty that the Vick experiment is over and that would be good if for no other reason than some of the whiny bitching here would stop for a week or so and then all those who cried for Foles would act as if they never did and bitch about him....hell, I hope the cut the whole team and start over


LOL, seriously.

He MIGHT turn the ball over less than Vick. But then there is that Peters/Kelce-less O-Line. Then there is Marty.
CT_Eagle
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 15 2012, 03:18 AM) *
...then all those who cried for Foles would act as if they never did and bitch about him....hell, I hope the cut the whole team and start over


I have no doubt that if Foles comes in and fails that many posters here will start chirping about all of those posters proclaiming "Foles is the answer" have disappeared.

The reality is nobody is saying, including me, that Foles is the answer. What is being said is that Vick is not the answer so let's see what Foles has. Maybe he is the long term solution and maybe not. There is only one way to find out.
Eyrie
I've made that point before that, for all Vick's incompetence, he's the better choice right now behind what's left of our OL.
D Rock
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Oct 15 2012, 06:53 PM) *
I've made that point before that, for all Vick's incompetence, he's the better choice right now behind what's left of our OL.

Bottom line: Vick is a coach killer. (period)

This team NEVER had "discipline" problems. Suddenly, MV7 comes in and the team appears to lack focus, discipline, and attention to detail.

The human turn over machine must go. If/when Foles stinks up the joint too . . . then at least we've exhausted every potential path and the door can hit Andy's ample ass at the end of the season.

HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 15 2012, 02:36 PM) *
Bottom line: Vick is a coach killer. (period)


If not for Vick, Reid might've been long gone after the 2010 season, if that entire year was put on the shoulders of Kevin Kolb behind that O-line. Our o-line this year is superb compared to that.
D Rock
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Oct 15 2012, 07:41 PM) *
If not for Vick, Reid might've been long gone after the 2010 season, if that entire year was put on the shoulders of Kevin Kolb behind that O-line. Our o-line this year is superb compared to that.

The O line was pretty solid last season. Vick still stank.
Dr. Claw
QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 15 2012, 02:36 PM) *
Bottom line: Vick is a coach killer. (period)


Only Mora/Knapp sucked. Call him a "bad QB" if you will, but a "coach killer"?

Firing Dan Reeves was a panic move that you can't blame on Vick (since they went 5-11 without him).

The Mora/Knapp connection were garbage. Like a running version of Andyball. Greg Knapp especially. He has sucked as a coordinator everywhere except maybe the Texans (and he's not even there anymore, so what does that tell you). The Falcons have been a much better team under Bobby Petrino (who left them unceremoniously), where Roddy White started to break out as a WR, and even more so under Mike Smith (now if only they could win a playoff game, something that Mike Vick at least did under Mora/Krapp).

Andy... well, he's had game planning/preparation issues dating back to well before Michael Vick was even a thought as an Eagle. And yet, everyone blames the QB. It's always "Oh, no the QB has to be more accurate! the QB has to do this, the QB has to do that." Never the fact that the pass-happy offense doesn't fit the conditions on the field or Eagles teams under Andy rarely if ever adjust when there's a struggle.

so pardon me if the "coach killer" charge is just some sensationalized BS not steeped in fact.

but if that's what it's going to take for a change w/the Eagles, then let Vick take this busted, outdated offense to the kennelz.
Phits
QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 15 2012, 02:36 PM) *
Bottom line: Vick is a coach killer. (period)

Not true at all. Our coach is a poor talent evaluator and is wishy washy. He doesn't have the gonads and/or common sense to implement a system and get the necessary personnel to make that system work effectively

QUOTE
This team NEVER had "discipline" problems.

The coach lost this team several years ago, and has been scrambling ever since. A few seasons ago when Vick stole Kolb's job...the team seemed ready to respond to a change at guard and played as such. It gave the illusion that Reid still had control.


TGryn
Given Andy's record in December - I think it's close to a 0.700 win percentage - I'd disagree that he's ever "lost" the team. There's been a couple of times he's come close, but they've always rebounded. Guys do play hard for him, regardless of his other flaws.

I will also say that he eventually did solve the WR position with DJax and Maclin, after years of misses at the position with Pinky and FredX. They've got the skill position guys to run the offense, that's not the problem right now.
Dr. Claw
QUOTE (Phits @ Oct 15 2012, 03:03 PM) *
Not true at all. Our coach is a poor talent evaluator and is wishy washy. He doesn't have the gonads and/or common sense to implement a system and get the necessary personnel to make that system work effectively


and if he ends up with something sub-optimal sometimes it seems it doesn't know what he has to do. The Raiders game from 2009, anyone?
downundermike
QUOTE (Phits @ Oct 15 2012, 12:03 PM) *
He doesn't have the gonads and/or common sense to implement a system and get the necessary personnel to make that system work effectively


Everyone misses this point. He is a stubborn ass that thinks he is smarter than everyone else.

The one time he went against his own system and went run heavy to protect the QB ( Garcia ), it was the best football they played that season.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (downundermike @ Oct 16 2012, 06:09 PM) *
Everyone misses this point. He is a stubborn ass that thinks he is smarter than everyone else.

The one time he went against his own system and went run heavy to protect the QB ( Garcia ), it was the best football they played that season.

The argument made by a few around here, including myself, is that the QB you reference (Garcia) was given a more balanced approach because he was more capable of making routine plays to move the chains. Whereas McNabb and Vick often miss opportunities with errant passes, thus putting us in passing downs (i.e. 2nd or 3rd and long) more often than Garcia did.
downundermike
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 16 2012, 04:15 PM) *
The argument made by a few around here, including myself, is that the QB you reference (Garcia) was given a more balanced approach because he was more capable of making routine plays to move the chains. Whereas McNabb and Vick often miss opportunities with errant passes, thus putting us in passing downs (i.e. 2nd or 3rd and long) more often than Garcia did.


Sounds like a good reason to give Foles a shot.

The other arguement against Foles that kills me is he played behind a line going against vanilla defenses.

My counter to that is Vick survived 7 plays behind the same line against those same vanilla defenses, while Foles played 8 quarters, was sacked once and was hardly hit.

Did you see the deal with Jaws on ESPN that Vick is the only NFL QB averaging more then 3 seconds from snap until ball is out.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (downundermike @ Oct 16 2012, 06:23 PM) *
Sounds like a good reason to give Foles a shot.

The other arguement against Foles that kills me is he played behind a line going against vanilla defenses.

My counter to that is Vick survived 7 plays behind the same line against those same vanilla defenses, while Foles played 8 quarters, was sacked once and was hardly hit.

Did you see the deal with Jaws on ESPN that Vick is the only NFL QB averaging more then 3 seconds from snap until ball is out.

I'm not sure the only argument Reid can make against not going with Foles is the OLine. Frankly, we lost our two most important linemen. Most teams can't survive that.

Holding the ball is absolutely Vick's fatal flaw (beyond the fumbling.) When Vick tries to play Superman, he makes this team much, much worse. See overtime on Sunday.

We're basically dealing with a slightly more accurate, but way more reckless McNabb. Reid was fooled by those 7 games in 2010. It looks like it's going to cost him his job.
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 16 2012, 07:43 PM) *
It looks like it's going to cost him his job.

He could be fired for any number of reasons......

Juan
McDer-mutt
Vick
Marty
April/Mudd/Washburn
No SB
Pass...pass...pass

How about the years we didn't have a proper back-up QB? or adequate players on special teams? How about the LB corp? The Kolb pick? Dawkin's dismissal? McNabb's dismissal?

Reid's problems go deeper than Vick. and are too numerous to ignore.


D Rock
QUOTE (Phits @ Oct 17 2012, 01:08 AM) *
He could be fired for any number of reasons......

Juan
McDer-mutt
Vick
Marty
April/Mudd/Washburn
No SB
Pass...pass...pass

How about the years we didn't have a proper back-up QB? or adequate players on special teams? How about the LB corp? The Kolb pick? Dawkin's dismissal? McNabb's dismissal?

Reid's problems go deeper than Vick. and are too numerous to ignore.

The Kolb pick was brilliant. Look what it turned into.
downundermike
QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 16 2012, 05:18 PM) *
The Kolb pick was brilliant. Look what it turned into.


I have to agree......we fleeced Zona in that deal. Once Vick is gone, that should leave plenty of $$$ to re-up DRC.

Hopefully the Eagles can get Xavier Rhodes in the 1st round next year, they will be set at corner for years.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Oct 16 2012, 07:08 PM) *
Juan

Agreed
QUOTE
McDer-mutt

You have the benefit of hindsight here. McDermott was the obvious choice. You can't always predict someone being overmatched. Also, don't forget the circumstances which led to his promotion.
QUOTE
Vick

Agreed
QUOTE
Marty

Disagreed. Marty is well respected as an OC. I think we should go a different direction, but I don't think having Marty as an OC is a fireable offense.
QUOTE
April/Mudd/Washburn

No, no, and no. All of these guys were/are considered the best in the game. Sometimes things don't work out, but the hires themselves were fine.
QUOTE
No SB

Eh, this is dumb. Success is determined by more than just SB's. And lots of inferior coaches have won them.
QUOTE
Pass...pass...pass

It's the nature of the league. You would likely have to fire nearly every coach for this offense.
QUOTE
How about the years we didn't have a proper back-up QB?

I can only think of one. 2005. I'd argue we've been the best team i football in this regard.
QUOTE
or adequate players on special teams?

There was one specific year this happend. It hasn't been a persistant problem.
QUOTE
How about the LB corp?

Agreed.

The Kolb pick was a smart pick at the time. And has turned into talent. Sometimes QB picks don't work out, but the idea was right. Dawkin's dismissal? I still think this was Banner. McNabb's dismissal?
Oh god, seriously? You're a funny guy, Phits.


Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 16 2012, 07:15 PM) *
The argument made by a few around here, including myself, is that the QB you reference (Garcia) was given a more balanced approach because he was more capable of making routine plays to move the chains. Whereas McNabb and Vick often miss opportunities with errant passes, thus putting us in passing downs (i.e. 2nd or 3rd and long) more often than Garcia did.


god this myth just keeps getting told....the offense was more balanced with Garcia for one simple reason...Garcia, especially the version we got had a noodle arm......he did not have the arm to throw the deep ball and so it was taken out of the offense and they reverted to a more traditional WC offense.......it had nothing to do with what Garcia could do better than Mcnabb and everything to do with what he couldn't do as well as McNabb and is evidenced by what they try to do with Vick.....Marty/Andy just love to throw the ball deep and now every team plays their safeties 30 yards off the ball and Marty still says "we're coming after you"......just amazing to watch....I am just hoping Juan will be giving Marty a ride to the UE office....wishful thinking but pleasant none the less
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 16 2012, 08:57 PM) *
And lots of inferior coaches have won them.

Which 'inferior' coach has won the Superbowl?

QUOTE
McNabb's dismissal?
Oh god, seriously?

You can't argue with the facts....we haven't been back to the playoffs since he was ousted. Aside from a stretch of games a few seasons ago, we haven't looked like the contenders we are advertised to be. Say what you want, but we never had these issues with turnovers when he was under centre. We never had these problems putting points on the board when he was under centre....particularly with the potency of this offense. We could run a screen pass successfully and chuck the ball downfield successfully. And something that isnt being addressed is that McNabb knew how to utilize his tight ends. Brent Celek should be an elite TE in this league, instead we are talking about his potential.

As for the return on the Kolb pick, we had more pressing concerns in the lineup that the draft pick could have helped with. Hell, we made it to the NFCCG his first year, so we werent that far off from serious contention. Instead wedrafted the QB for 'our future' and eventually traded him for what we needed in the first place. Nowwe are stuck with his replacement or some kid named Foles, who we really don't know anything about.

In itself none of the reasons I listed are fire able offences, but combined....
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Phits @ Oct 16 2012, 10:48 PM) *
Which 'inferior' coach has won the Superbowl?

can you say Barry Switzer.......?...that is just one off the top of my head

and one could argue Gruden.......he took Dungy's roster and won with it but then did not do much else once it was his team...
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Oct 16 2012, 09:48 PM) *
Which 'inferior' coach has won the Superbowl?

Billick, off hand. Got fired and didn't sniff another job. I could make a pretty strong case for Dungy too. I'm sure there are others.

QUOTE
You can't argue with the facts....we haven't been back to the playoffs since he was ousted.

No wonder you're wrong so often. Your memory is terrible.

QUOTE
Aside from a stretch of games a few seasons ago, we haven't looked like the contenders we are advertised to be.

Who advertises us to be contenders? Are they doing it because we're the most talented team in football? Or is it a combination of talent and coaching? People respect us nationally because of Reid, not despite him.

QUOTE
Say what you want, but we never had these issues with turnovers when he was under centre.

I've already said that Vick's carlessness with the ball is worse than any of McNabb's bad qualities. That doesn't mean that getting rid of McNabb, when he was clearly done, was the wrong decision.

QUOTE
We never had these problems putting points on the board when he was under centre....particularly with the potency of this offense.

This simply isn't true. We've had red zone problems with both of them at QB. It's a combination of scheme and talent.

QUOTE
We could run a screen pass successfully and chuck the ball downfield successfully.

I love how you conveniently avoid, "and throw a 10 yard out successfully."

QUOTE
And something that isnt being addressed is that McNabb knew how to utilize his tight ends. Brent Celek should be an elite TE in this league, instead we are talking about his potential.

Celek is a very good tight end, but he's not elite. One of my favorite players on the team. 2012 McNabb wouldn't be doing much to help Celek.

QUOTE
As for the return on the Kolb pick, we had more pressing concerns in the lineup that the draft pick could have helped with. Hell, we made it to the NFCCG his first year, so we werent that far off from serious contention. Instead wedrafted the QB for 'our future' and eventually traded him for what we needed in the first place. Nowwe are stuck with his replacement or some kid named Foles, who we really don't know anything about.

Drafting the QB of the future is never the wrong decision. McNabb was at the end of the road. We're lucky we have a coach/front office that understands the importance. You don't think the Packers had more pressing needs when they drafted Aaron Rodgers? Hell, they went from a 10-6 team to a 4-12 team. What a dumb choice.


Phits
First, i meant to say championship game.

Second, Reid couldn't tie Billick or Dungy's shoe laces. These guys aren't coaching any more because they choose not to.

QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 16 2012, 11:06 PM) *
Billick, off hand. Got fired and didn't sniff another job. I could make a pretty strong case for Dungy too. I'm sure there are others.


No wonder you're wrong so often. Your memory is terrible.


Who advertises us to be contenders? Are they doing it because we're the most talented team in football? Or is it a combination of talent and coaching? People respect us nationally because of Reid, not despite him.


I've already said that Vick's carlessness with the ball is worse than any of McNabb's bad qualities. That doesn't mean that getting rid of McNabb, when he was clearly done, was the wrong decision.


This simply isn't true. We've had red zone problems with both of them at QB. It's a combination of scheme and talent.


I love how you conveniently avoid, "and throw a 10 yard out successfully."


Celek is a very good tight end, but he's not elite. One of my favorite players on the team. 2012 McNabb wouldn't be doing much to help Celek.


Drafting the QB of the future is never the wrong decision. McNabb was at the end of the road. We're lucky we have a coach/front office that understands the importance. You don't think the Packers had more pressing needs when they drafted Aaron Rodgers? Hell, they went from a 10-6 team to a 4-12 team. What a dumb choice.

Phits
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 16 2012, 11:04 PM) *
can you say Barry Switzer.......?...that is just one off the top of my head

and one could argue Gruden.......he took Dungy's roster and won with it but then did not do much else once it was his team...

You got me with Switzer, but you're mistaken about Gruden. Even if Gruden doesnt make the grade, that isn't plenty of inferior coaches like McKnowitall was implying.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Oct 16 2012, 10:55 PM) *
Second, Reid couldn't tie Billick or Dungy's shoe laces. These guys aren't coaching any more because they choose not to.

Hahahahahahahahahaha
http://m.espn.go.com/nfl/story?storyId=3175037
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 17 2012, 12:04 AM) *

The hahahahahaha comes from the irony of the article. Substitute some names and you have what most will be saying about Reid after he is given the ol' heave ho.

QUOTE
"It's a gut feeling. I have one job here, and that's to have a leader that I think gives us the best chance," Bisciotti Lurie said. "We have been losing more than winning lately."


QUOTE
"He had to make a hard decision, and he did what he believes is best for the Ravens Eagles," Billick Reid said in a statement. "We are friends and will remain friends."


QUOTE
Infamous Words Brian Billick Andy Reid claimed that he knew quarterbacks, but he spent nine fourteen seasons as Baltimore's Philadelphia's head coach proving exactly the opposite, writes Len Pasquarelli


QUOTE
"Sometimes the message can get repetitive after a while," 12-year offensive tackle Jonathan Ogden 9-year defensive back Nnamdi Asomugha said.


QUOTE
Bisciotti Lurie knows there are no guarantees that the Ravens Eagles next coach will get better results than Billick Reids. But he figured making a change was worth the risk.

"In order to be successful you have to take chances, and in order to take chances you have to listen to your heart. You have to go with your gut," the owner said. "It doesn't mean that you don't fear being wrong, because I do fear being wrong. I could be three coaches past Brian Billick nine years from now trying to solve this puzzle."


QUOTE
"I'm not saying I agree with it," kicker Matt Stover running back LeSean McCoy said of Billick's Reid's dismissal, "but sometimes things have to change."


QUOTE
"For all we went through as a team, I think coach Billickstood in there. And for all the verbal lashings from the fans and the media, he stood in there and took it," wide receiver Derrick Mason tight-end Brent Celek said. "That says a lot for the man, for his character. Yes, it was shocking, but the organization had to make a decision, and they felt in was the best decision for this team to move forward."


QUOTE
"How much blame you put on different people, and how much you hold yourself responsible is new to me," he said. "I hope that over time that Baltimore Philadelphia views me as [good] an owner as Brian Billick Andy Reid was a head football coach.


QUOTE
"I've got some catching up to do to the man that I asked to step down today. The jury's out on me. Brian's already got his Super Bowl."

Please Note the absence of Reid's name in the above statement.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE
"It's a gut feeling. I have one job here, and that's to have a leader that I think gives us the best chance,"Bisciotti Lurie said. "We have been losing more than winning lately."

We haven't had a losing season since 2005. Not 5-11 since his first season as a coach (up from 3-13)

You're also the one who said Billick went out on his own terms. Sometimes I wonder if you even follow the league.
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 17 2012, 01:01 AM) *
We haven't had a losing season since 2005. Not 5-11 since his first season as a coach (up from 3-13)

The quote says that we are losing more than we are winning. The last I checked we are on a 2 game losing streak. This would imply that lately we are losing more than winning.

QUOTE
You're also the one who said Billick went out on his own terms.

I never said that he went out on his own terms. That's more fabrication. My exact wording is:

QUOTE
Second, Reid couldn't tie Billick or Dungy's shoe laces. These guys aren't coaching any more because they choose not to.


Implying that they are no longer interested [at least at this time] in coaching in the NFL. They both have less stressful cushy jobs. Billick is known to be a very smart guy, TV gives him the forum to flap his gums and show everybody how smart he is.

QUOTE
Sometimes I wonder if you even follow the league.

Sometimes I wonder if you are actually Andy Reid, because your faith/praise in/of him is nauseating. Your defense of him is one dimensional, like his game planning. "Look what he did for us...blah blah blah..."

That was then, this is now. His suck ass play calling and game day coaching probably cost us superbowls <----plural.

I'm done with the walrus.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Oct 17 2012, 12:19 AM) *
The quote says that we are losing more than we are winning. The last I checked we are on a 2 game losing streak. This would imply that lately we are losing more than winning.

Oh Jesus, is this really the argument we're going with now. Our sample size is now two weeks?
QUOTE
I never said that he went out on his own terms. That's more fabrication. My exact wording is:

You said that not coaching was his decision. He was fired with 3 years left on his contract. Just admit you're wrong. It's ok.

QUOTE
Implying that they are no longer interested [at least at this time] in coaching in the NFL. They both have less stressful cushy jobs. Billick is known to be a very smart guy, TV gives him the forum to flap his gums and show everybody how smart he is.

Billick is a know it all, asshole. But he wanted to coach. No one wanted him.

QUOTE
Sometimes I wonder if you are actually Andy Reid, because your faith/praise in/of him is nauseating. Your defense of him is one dimensional, like his game planning. "Look what he did for us...blah blah blah..."

I just know a good thing when I've got it. I also know the grass is greener. You think 8-8 is a disaster of a season, and complain about all the losing we do, without realizing we haven't had a losing season since 2005 and that was a total anomaly.
QUOTE
That was then, this is now. His suck ass play calling and game day coaching probably cost us superbowls <----plural.

I'm done with the walrus.

Well, he likely doesn't call the plays, but that is besides the point. Saying he probably cost us SB's is completely speculative. I live in reality. In my world, he has kept is competitive for over a decade. Something few people in NFL history have been able to achieve. I don't take that lightly. We'll have to agree to disagree about the value in that.

Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 17 2012, 01:39 AM) *
Oh Jesus, is this really the argument we're going with now. Our sample size is now two weeks?

what part of lately do you not understand?

QUOTE
You said that not coaching was his decision. He was fired with 3 years left on his contract. Just admit you're wrong. It's ok.

Billick is a know it all, asshole. But he wanted to coach. No one wanted him.

First, it takes one to know one.
Second, how many owners do you know? Do they all seek your advice on personnel moves?

QUOTE
I just know a good thing when I've got it. I also know the grass is greener. You think 8-8 is a disaster of a season, and complain about all the losing we do, without realizing we haven't had a losing season since 2005 and that was a total anomaly.

I don't think 8-8 is a disaster. Except when your team is expected to do much more. The owner of the Eagles seems to feel the same way. He decided to make his feelings known this past off-season. You seem to feel 8-8 is OK, because he hasn't had a 'losing season' since 2005. Fortunately for Eagles fans every where, you don't make the decisions.

QUOTE
Coach Andy Reid's Eagles need to improve this season, and a second straight 8-8 finish would be unacceptable, the team's owner, Jeffrey Lurie, said Thursday.

Lurie did not quantify how much Reid's team would need to improve this season. But the owner did say several times that another .500 campaign was "unacceptable."

It was not clear then if Lurie would accept a similar result this season. He was asked Thursday if another 8-8 record would constitute a substantial improvement. "No, it would not," Lurie said
.


QUOTE
Well, he likely doesn't call the plays, but that is besides the point.

I wonder if he is still using that fancy binder he came with when he first started?

QUOTE
Saying he probably cost us SB's is completely speculative. I live in reality.

Now that's speculative

QUOTE
In my world, he has kept is competitive for over a decade. Something few people in NFL history have been able to achieve. I don't take that lightly. We'll have to agree to disagree about the value in that.

Again, it's fortunate for Eagles fans every where that you don't make the decisions. I want championships, you just want to be competitive. Mediocrity seems to be acceptable to you.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Oct 17 2012, 01:27 AM) *
what part of lately do you not understand?

Way to hold firm.

QUOTE
First, it takes one to know one.

Oh, most definitely. But it still doesn't change the fact that Billick got fired and was never rehired. That's just a fact. I'm quite certain he didn't have some contact squabble that led to not being hired.

He was a bust as a coach that road Marvin Lewis' coat tails to a Super Bowl. And he's not coaching for that reason. Not because of choice.
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 17 2012, 01:41 PM) *
Way to hold firm.


Oh, most definitely. But it still doesn't change the fact that Billick got fired and was never rehired. That's just a fact. I'm quite certain he didn't have some contact squabble that led to not being hired.

He was a bust as a coach that road Marvin Lewis' coat tails to a Super Bowl. And he's not coaching for that reason. Not because of choice.

Wow. You really are a know it all. Apparently the only coach worth anything is ours......despite costing us multiple superbowls. Billicks 60% winning percentage doesn't mean squat...even though he won it all. Forget the fact that he kept the team competitive, which epitomizes your definitio of success. Ill take the championship and the ability to keep his team over Reids annual choke fest.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Oct 17 2012, 01:02 PM) *
Wow. You really are a know it all.

It goes with paying attention. Like I said, you still can't deny that you said Billick went out on his own terms. It's okay to be wrong, Phits. You can admit it. We've all become accustomed to it over the years anyways.

QUOTE
Apparently the only coach worth anything is ours......despite costing us multiple superbowls.

That's just a flat out lie. Hyperbole doesn't better your argument. Various things have contributed to us not winning a SB. With that said, bad decisions made every game by head coaches win/loses/or doesn't impact games. Reid has hardly cost us "multiple" superbowls when we've only been in the argument for best team in the league once or twice (2002 and 2004)

Billicks 60% winning percentage doesn't mean squat...even though he won it all.
Actually 55%. Reid is at 60%. He also went 2 years longer than Reid has without winning a playoff game.

Forget the fact that he kept the team competitive, which epitomizes your definitio of success.
That's the thing. 2 of his final 3 years at the helm his team failed to win more than 6 games. So they weren't really competitive at the end. We, despite having a down season last year, still only missed the playoffs by one game. Now that is competitive.

QUOTE
Ill take the championship and the ability to keep his team over Reids annual choke fest.

Well if you were an NFL owner, that would make one of you.
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 17 2012, 02:36 PM) *
It goes with paying attention. Like I said, you still can't deny that you said Billick went out on his own terms. It's okay to be wrong, Phits. You can admit it. We've all become accustomed to it over the years anyways.


Reading comprehension is not your strong point is it?

I said "Second, Reid couldn't tie Billick or Dungy's shoe laces. These guys aren't coaching any more because they choose not to."

He chose to retire from coaching. I never referenced the reason for his departure from the Ravens.


QUOTE
That's just a flat out lie. Hyperbole doesn't better your argument. Various things have contributed to us not winning a SB. With that said, bad decisions made every game by head coaches win/loses/or doesn't impact games. Reid has hardly cost us "multiple" superbowls when we've only been in the argument for best team in the league once or twice (2002 and 2004)


It's not a "flat out lie", it's my opinion. Do you think that every opinion that differs from yours is a lie?

QUOTE
He also went 2 years longer than Reid has without winning a playoff game.

He also won th SB without a good QB. This also blows up your argument about not being able to win without a great QB.


QUOTE
That's the thing. 2 of his final 3 years at the helm his team failed to win more than 6 games. So they weren't really competitive at the end. We, despite having a down season last year, still only missed the playoffs by one game. Now that is competitive.

We missed the playoffs. Regardless of how close we were to making it, the only thing that matters to a team expected to compete for a championship is that we didn't. Getting excited about a .500 season are what teams on the rise do, not established teams with aspirations of contending. I understand why you are excited, you are "content with contending".....I'm not.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Oct 17 2012, 03:18 PM) *
Reading comprehension is not your strong point is it?

I said "Second, Reid couldn't tie Billick or Dungy's shoe laces. These guys aren't coaching any more because they choose not to."

He chose to retire from coaching. I never referenced the reason for his departure from the Ravens.

This conversation is stale. He didn't choose to retire from coaching. It was mandated by no one offering him a job after he was fired.

That would be like me saying I chose not to play in the league.

QUOTE
It's not a "flat out lie", it's my opinion. Do you think that every opinion that differs from yours is a lie?

You said he cost us multiple superbowls. Stated as fact. Of course I don't think differing opinions are lies. You never provide any reference behind your opinions though. They're all gut.

QUOTE
He also won th SB without a good QB. This also blows up your argument about not being able to win without a great QB.

No, my argument is that this has been the case since 2004. It's why I thought Donovan was the perfect QB to lead us to multiple SB's before the significant shift in the game at that time. He was ball control and no turnovers when that was a viable way to win championships. In 2004, the game shifted to a situation where QB's had to more consistently capitalize on opportunities. Donnie didn't have that in him, especially after he lost his running ability.

QUOTE
We missed the playoffs. Regardless of how close we were to making it, the only thing that matters to a team expected to compete for a championship is that we didn't.

Once again, why did we have these expectations? Do you think we really should have expected a MV led team to win a SB? Maybe the expectations were misaligned.

QUOTE
Getting excited about a .500 season are what teams on the rise do, not established teams with aspirations of contending. I understand why you are excited, you are "content with contending".....I'm not.

I wasn't excited about our results last year. Nor am I satisfied with being 3-3 at this point. With that said, we've played absolutely terribly for most of the season and are still very much in contention. We're also historically better after the bye, so I have that to look forward to. Depending on how things play out, I can reevaluate my opinion on the job Reid did after the season. I don't do that on a week by week basis.

Besides, if I wanted Reid fired immediately, this whole place would be a "Fire Reid" circle jerk. How much fun would that be?

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