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mcnabbulous
http://www.phillymag.com/eagles/2012/10/10...gles-offense-3/
I love hearing what a terrible play caller/offensive mind Reid is. Clearly that's not the problem. Of course, I wouldn't expect many people on this board to put any blame on the guys on the field.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 10 2012, 02:26 PM) *
http://www.phillymag.com/eagles/2012/10/10...gles-offense-3/
I love hearing what a terrible play caller/offensive mind Reid is. Clearly that's not the problem. Of course, I wouldn't expect many people on this board to put any blame on the guys on the field.


What - no analysis of 1st and goal at the 3, and Reid dials up a draw for the fumblemaster?

I don't believe I've mentioned this before, we remain 10-1 when McCoy gets 20 carries.
Just in case you missed my other post, here's Keith Brooking on Reid, after embarassing us in back-to-back games to end the 09-10 season:

"The way we dominated them, obviously McNabb didnít play his best, but they were very predictable," said Brooking of the Eagles' offense. "We knew exactly what was coming on every play. A lot of that didnít have to do with Donovan McNabb."
Whoa! I'd say that's pretty obvious shot at Andy Reid and Marty Mornhinweg. And something tells me that quote will get passed around the Eagles' coaching offices. But wait, there's more:
"Sometimes the old thing about you donít know what youíve got until itís gone Ö I promise you," said Brooking. "Now, that [Kevin] Kolb kid may end up winning three or four Super Bowls for that city. I canít predict that. But Donovan McNabb, his body of work and what heís done for that franchise, there's not a lot of guys who come into this league who have played as long as he has and can say theyíve accomplished what heís accomplished."
Phits
You miss the point entirely. The players share the blame, but Reid isn't blameless. When you see the same type of behaviour over and over again with negative results AND different personnel, you have to look at the constants and how they are failing.
make_it_rain
I'm just going to take a break from the typical "Reid playcalling vs. Vick Sucks" chicken or the egg game we've been playing around here to say that these All-22 write ups are very good. Thanks for posting.

Carry on, gents.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (make_it_rain @ Oct 10 2012, 03:28 PM) *
these All-22 write ups are very good. Thanks for posting.


They are pretty cool actually.
xsv
QUOTE (make_it_rain @ Oct 10 2012, 03:28 PM) *
I'm just going to take a break from the typical "Reid playcalling vs. Vick Sucks" chicken or the egg game we've been playing around here


I don't understand why it has to be one or the other. I think it's obvious that Reid's playcalling sucks AND Vick sucks.




QUOTE
... All-22 write ups are very good.


I agree with this as well.

Phits
QUOTE (xsv @ Oct 10 2012, 04:06 PM) *
I don't understand why it has to be one or the other. I think it's obvious that Reid's play calling sucks AND Vick sucks.

I agree with this as well.

I am not quite sure that Vick sucks, but his decision making is questionable. I don't think Reid's play calling sucks, but it certainly doesn't fit his personnel. A lot of the scripted plays are well thought out if executed perfectly. However, one needs to factor in the players ability to make said plays in a given situation and accounting for the variables. This is what makes a good coach great.

Other than that I agree entirely.
koolaidluke
Brooking is a homo. McFraud was outplayed by Jeff Garcia and IP Freely while he was an Eagle. Than he crashed and burned in Washington and Minni when he didn't have Reid to scheme around his flaws.

As for that Dallas game, I recall our backup center being unable to snap the ball or pick up an interior blitz, and that had much more to do with our shit play than how "predictable" piece of shit Brooking thinks we were.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (koolaidluke @ Oct 10 2012, 04:42 PM) *
Brooking is a homo. McFraud was outplayed by Jeff Garcia and IP Freely while he was an Eagle. Than he crashed and burned in Washington and Minni when he didn't have Reid to scheme around his flaws.

As for that Dallas game, I recall our backup center being unable to snap the ball or pick up an interior blitz, and that had much more to do with our shit play than how "predictable" piece of shit Brooking thinks we were.


No way, man. Once McNabb starts playing for a guy that knows how to use the running game, like Shanahan, he's going to dominate. Just wait and see.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (koolaidluke @ Oct 10 2012, 04:42 PM) *
Brooking is a homo. McFraud was outplayed by Jeff Garcia and IP Freely while he was an Eagle. Than he crashed and burned in Washington and Minni when he didn't have Reid to scheme around his flaws.


Exhibit A drives home my point - someone who actually knows football as opposed to a psycho troll.....
D Rock
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 10 2012, 08:50 PM) *
Once McNabb starts playing for a guy that knows how to use the running game, like Shanahan, he's going to dominate. Just wait and see.

laugh.gif
Bocadelphia Eagles John
I can't imagine that any of us excuse the lack of execution from the entire squad, all 3 of the units. The real point is, even with the lack of execution the last game was VERY winable and we didn't do it.

And one can identify the critical plays or series where the outcome was impacted leading to that loss.

And if we're having a problem with execution and the finger can be pointed to all 3 units, where does the utlitmate blame fall for that ? It has to rest right in the laps of the coaching staff.

I can't fathom why an entire squad of highly paid professionals aren't playing like a quality team. The individuals are not THAT bad.

It's time for a sweeping broom to clean this dirty deck
Phits
QUOTE (Bocadelphia Eagles John @ Oct 10 2012, 05:47 PM) *
I can't imagine that any of us excuse the lack of execution from the entire squad, all 3 of the units. The real point is, even with the lack of execution the last game was VERY winable and we didn't do it.

And one can identify the critical plays or series where the outcome was impacted leading to that loss.

And if we're having a problem with execution and the finger can be pointed to all 3 units, where does the utlitmate blame fall for that ? It has to rest right in the laps of the coaching staff.

I can't fathom why an entire squad of highly paid professionals aren't playing like a quality team. The individuals are not THAT bad.

It's time for a sweeping broom to clean this dirty deck

+1
So sez Boca....and Phits
koolaidluke
QUOTE (make_it_rain @ Oct 10 2012, 03:28 PM) *
I'm just going to take a break from the typical "Reid playcalling vs. Vick Sucks" chicken or the egg game we've been playing around here to say that these All-22 write ups are very good. Thanks for posting.


Almost makes you sad newspapers are obsolete, doesn't it?
Reality Fan
and one can say that the call at the goal line was a terrible call without using it as a fucking stupid indictment of the entire game......pretty simple actually.....how did they get to the goal line with all that stupid playcalling and horrible play....oh wait......
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE
and one can say that the call at the goal line was a terrible call


Now we're making progress baby! Thanks for finally admitting it.

QUOTE
without using it as a fucking stupid indictment of the entire game


How much did we lose by?

QUOTE
how did they get to the goal line with all that stupid playcalling and horrible play....oh wait......


It was a pretty balanced drive - of course, 31 of those yards came on a pass interference call.....but yeah, he's a genius laugh.gif
mcnabbulous
Most of Vick's fumbles have occurred on scrambles. I can't think of another time that he has fumbled on a designed run. The play call was fine and the same call we should have used at the end of the Giants game. He didn't execute and is to blame.
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 11 2012, 12:50 PM) *
Most of Vick's fumbles have occurred on scrambles. I can't think of another time that he has fumbled on a designed run. The play call was fine and the same call we should have used at the end of the Giants game. He didn't execute and is to blame.

Absolutely blame him for the fumble(s). Without question. Blame the defence for having the lead and failing to hold it, with he game on the line.

There is enough blame is to go all around. Singling out any one person or play is silly.

Even if they had scored the defence demonstrated an inability to hold the lead.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Oct 11 2012, 01:31 PM) *
Absolutely blame him for the fumble(s). Without question. Blame the defence for having the lead and failing to hold it, with he game on the line.

There is enough blame is to go all around. Singling out any one person or play is silly.

Even if they had scored the defence demonstrated an inability to hold the lead.


This had nothing to do with the defense (which you're wrong about.) I was responding to a post about the playcall, which was fine.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 11 2012, 12:50 PM) *
Most of Vick's fumbles have occurred on scrambles. I can't think of another time that he has fumbled on a designed run. The play call was fine and the same call we should have used at the end of the Giants game. He didn't execute and is to blame.


He put 2 balls on the ground prior to that call. We have the best RB in football sitting there holding his dick on that play. There's no question the first play should've been a run by Shady.

Remember the game Ty Detmer threw 7 ints? At what point is the coach to blame for continuing to dial up pass plays? At what point is Reid to blame for purposely running Vick?
D Rock
QUOTE (Phits @ Oct 11 2012, 05:31 PM) *
Singling out any one person or play is silly.

Even if said person is turning the ball over at all-time historical levels? For the entire history of the league, no single player has turned the ball over at the rate Vick has in the last 3 seasons ever. EVER.

But sure, plenty of blame to go 'round.

rolleyes.gif

You could have the '85 chicago bears D or our Buddy's Gang Green defense and neither would win very often with the human turn over machine under center.

Just sayin . . .

I know it's inconvenient for you that it's not the walrus out there turning over the ball at these historical rates. But don't let it cloud your judgement.

xsv
QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 11 2012, 03:57 PM) *
Even if said person is turning the ball over at all-time historical levels? For the entire history of the league, no single player has turned the ball over at the rate Vick has in the last 3 seasons ever. EVER.


I saw that graphic, too. Can't remember where I saw it though. You don't remember do you? I'd like to make it my avatar or something, lol.
Phits
we had the lead late in the game. his turnover mistakes were done by the half. the offense took the advantage on the scoreboard....do you not expect the D to stop the opposition from scoring to take the lead? or is that too much of a task? I don't know about you, but I have an expectation that the defense will make stops late in the game. I expect both sides (offense and defense) to execute late in games. I don't expect to be pointing fingers at the QB's fumbles in the first half and using it as an excuse to play half assed.

Vick was shit, but he did play much better in the 2nd half. Offensive line was shit. McCoy is great, but he can't catch a break in this offense. The defense was decent for 2 quarters and was a sieve in the 2nd half. clock management was horrible. with all that said, we could have squeaked out a win IF the D could make a stop at the end when it really counted.



QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 11 2012, 03:57 PM) *
Even if said person is turning the ball over at all-time historical levels? For the entire history of the league, no single player has turned the ball over at the rate Vick has in the last 3 seasons ever. EVER.

But sure, plenty of blame to go 'round.

rolleyes.gif

You could have the '85 chicago bears D or our Buddy's Gang Green defense and neither would win very often with the human turn over machine under center.

Just sayin . . .

I know it's inconvenient for you that it's not the walrus out there turning over the ball at these historical rates. But don't let it cloud your judgement.

mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Oct 11 2012, 04:28 PM) *
with all that said, we could have squeaked out a win IF the D could make a stop at the end when it really counted.


Your problem is that you always watch a game through some jaded set of glasses that implies everything which happens between the lines is dictated by the guys in green or our coaching staff.
Sometimes, as was the case Sunday, a great/clutch player on the other team makes big plays to stop our best efforts. It's not always a matter of our guys/coaches shitting the bed.
D Rock
Yeah, our defense held the Steelers to literally HALF of their average point production. They clearly suck balls.

boohoo.gif

But the "quarterback" that's giving away the ball at historical levels is off the hook because, well . . . you know . . . he played better in the 2nd half.

wacko.gif

And hey, our coach is fat too.

laugh.gif
Dr. Claw
QUOTE (Phits @ Oct 11 2012, 04:28 PM) *
we had the lead late in the game. his turnover mistakes were done by the half. the offense took the advantage on the scoreboard....do you not expect the D to stop the opposition from scoring to take the lead? or is that too much of a task? I don't know about you, but I have an expectation that the defense will make stops late in the game. I expect both sides (offense and defense) to execute late in games. I don't expect to be pointing fingers at the QB's fumbles in the first half and using it as an excuse to play half assed.

Vick was shit, but he did play much better in the 2nd half. Offensive line was shit. McCoy is great, but he can't catch a break in this offense. The defense was decent for 2 quarters and was a sieve in the 2nd half. clock management was horrible. with all that said, we could have squeaked out a win IF the D could make a stop at the end when it really counted.


I think everyone just wants to see the "good old days of" putting up 20 points early and what not.

I'd trade high scoring affairs for 4th quarter comeback WINS, especially as a certain OTHER storied turnover machine in the division has shown... that's what gets you through games and the playoffs. Ask Peyton Manning and his lucky leprechaun of a brother.

and I'd also add that those who are excusing the defense because of the point total of the Steelers despite the IDEAL conditions to stop them when it counted (they began w/1st and 20 deep in their own territory, had a 3rd and 12 and still FAILED) whilst bellyaching about Vick's first half are just as bad as those they try to mock.

BEJ nailed it. The reasons to get on Andy are even beyond offensive playcalling (although at times, that's the bulk of why guys like Phits and I are not happy with him)... it's because you can point to all units of the game, and note repeated problems that do not seem to be actively addressed.

Not to mention that this has become a yearly discussion with Andy.

But all we need is a "QB who doesn't suck". I've watched those same Steelers go to and win Super Bowls with a QB who at times, has been as bad or worse than Vick in the turnover game. And the other one who I alluded to earlier speaks for himself.

Who knows HOW the game goes if we don't have those turnovers early. But I think that after so many in the same exact fashion, wouldn't you think that Andy would have said -something- about that to his QB by now?

The funny thing is, that in the Steeler game, I probably would not have blamed Andy at all (or much) for what the TEAM (and mostly Vick) were doing. Aside for a stupid 3-passes-and-out sequence right after they had scored a TD off some Shady running to scare the defense, ruining the momentum... Andy/Marty put together an OK game plan. It was just busted up by Vick's turnovers, special teams having another lapse (not as bad as the Giants game) and the defense giving up 3rd and longs all day.

I don't even think Phits or BEJ are really blaming Andy THAT much for the outcome of the Steeler game.

When Phits and everyone else is ranting about Andy, it's about the things HE has done for the last 14 years and not corrected (or neglected to). That is the constant.
xsv
QUOTE (Dr. Claw @ Oct 12 2012, 09:05 AM) *
I've watched those same Steelers go to and win Super Bowls with a QB who at times, has been as bad or worse than Vick in the turnover game.


Vick is currently turning the ball over at a higher rate than any player in NFL history.
xsv
QUOTE (xsv @ Oct 12 2012, 09:10 AM) *
Vick is currently turning the ball over at a higher rate than any player in NFL history.


He's 35th or 36th ALL TIME in fumbles.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Oct 11 2012, 03:38 PM) *
Remember the game Ty Detmer threw 7 ints? At what point is the coach to blame for continuing to dial up pass plays? At what point is Reid to blame for purposely running Vick?


Yeah so anyways, guess who was head coach of the Lions during that game?

rolleyes.gif
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 11 2012, 05:29 PM) *
Your problem is that you always watch a game through some jaded set of glasses that implies everything which happens between the lines is dictated by the guys in green or our coaching staff.
Sometimes, as was the case Sunday, a great/clutch player on the other team makes big plays to stop our best efforts. It's not always a matter of our guys/coaches shitting the bed.

That's a bullshit excuse. I expect good coaches to be able to limit the effect of "great" players, otherwise we should just lie down when a great player comes to play. Great players know how to exploit a teams weakness. Great coaches should be able to do the same.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Oct 12 2012, 02:57 PM) *
That's a bullshit excuse. I expect good coaches to be able to limit the effect of "great" players, otherwise we should just lie down when a great player comes to play. Great players know how to exploit a teams weakness. Great coaches should be able to do the same.


And we did, by holding their offense in check nearly the entire game. Sometimes they make big plays though. It's not because we choked. Big Ben is great on third down. He made a few big plays in a situation when his team just needed a field goal. They would have never been in that position had Vick not shit the bed multiple times in the first half.
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 12 2012, 03:15 PM) *
And we did, by holding their offense in check nearly the entire game. Sometimes they make big plays though. It's not because we choked. Big Ben is great on third down. He made a few big plays in a situation when his team just needed a field goal. They would have never been in that position had Vick not shit the bed multiple times in the first half.

The D couldn't stop this 'great player' when it mattered. According to your logic when a great players dcides to be great there's nothing that can be done about it. so what makes you think he was going to be held in check by the same defense that couldn't do it when it mattered?

Saying they would never have been in that position is speculatory. The fact is, we were in that position with the lead and a chance to win the game, but we needed a stop and the D didn't get it done. In the same circumstance, when we needed a score to go ahead late in the game....we did it.

Those are the facts.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Oct 12 2012, 03:28 PM) *
The D couldn't stop this 'great player' when it mattered. According to your logic when a great players dcides to be great there's nothing that can be done about it. so what makes you think he was going to be held in check by the same defense that couldn't do it when it mattered?

Saying they would never have been in that position is speculatory. The fact is, we were in that position with the lead and a chance to win the game, but we needed a stop and the D didn't get it done. In the same circumstance, when we needed a score to go ahead late in the game....we did it.

Those are the facts.

No, I didn't say he decided to be great and became unstoppable. I never even alluded to that. I said that great players are great because of their ability to make great plays. Expecting to be able to stop that at all times is irrational. It's not always on our players/coaches. Sometimes the perfect playcall is in place to combat what we have called. Every play doesn't involve one team playing great and the other failing. Sometimes, both teams do everything right.
Eyrie
So if the key is putting great players in a position to make great plays, the corollary is that mediocre players should not be put in a position where they are expected to make great plays.

Yet Reid does not use McCoy enough to get our noses in front and instead relies on Vick for this, despite Vick's failings as a passer which are exacebated by the lack of protection from our injury-hit OL.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Eyrie @ Oct 13 2012, 07:15 AM) *
So if the key is putting great players in a position to make great plays, the corollary is that mediocre players should not be put in a position where they are expected to make great plays.

Yet Reid does not use McCoy enough to get our noses in front and instead relies on Vick for this, despite Vick's failings as a passer which are exacebated by the lack of protection from our injury-hit OL.


Vick has made countless mistakes this year, but he also has had four clutch drives. He, without question, has greatness inside him. He just needs to harness it and avoid the mistakes.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 11 2012, 03:57 PM) *
Even if said person is turning the ball over at all-time historical levels? For the entire history of the league, no single player has turned the ball over at the rate Vick has in the last 3 seasons ever. EVER.

But sure, plenty of blame to go 'round.

rolleyes.gif

You could have the '85 chicago bears D or our Buddy's Gang Green defense and neither would win very often with the human turn over machine under center.

Just sayin . . .

I know it's inconvenient for you that it's not the walrus out there turning over the ball at these historical rates. But don't let it cloud your judgement.



well you know I hate to rain on your parade but you know how I hate absolutes so.......

just one example of a greater 3 year fumble that exceeds Vick's is Duante Culpepper.....he had 52 in 3 seasons.......Vick is currently on pace to fumble about 46 times if his troubles continue..... which they likely will not because if they do he will not make it past 3 more starts......and this season is a statistical anomaly for Vick...his previous high in fumbles is 16 but even that was an oddity, he is usually around 10 for the season. Kerry Collins has the record with Culpepper at 23
D Rock
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 13 2012, 09:54 PM) *
well you know I hate to rain on your parade but you know how I hate absolutes so.......

just one example of a greater 3 year fumble that exceeds Vick's is Duante Culpepper.....he had 52 in 3 seasons.......Vick is currently on pace to fumble about 46 times if his troubles continue..... which they likely will not because if they do he will not make it past 3 more starts......and this season is a statistical anomaly for Vick...his previous high in fumbles is 16 but even that was an oddity, he is usually around 10 for the season. Kerry Collins has the record with Culpepper at 23

You might want to check your working definition of the term, "absolute". There were none in my statement. To say a team "wont win very often" under a set of given circumstances is far from an "absolute."

Now to your statistical point . . .

It's logically and rhetorically invalid in that you cherry picked your data set chosing only to look at fumbles. I was discussing turnovers.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 13 2012, 05:00 PM) *
You might want to check your working definition of the term, "absolute". There were none in my statement. To say a team "wont win very often" under a set of given circumstances is far from an "absolute."

Now to your statistical point . . .

It's logically and rhetorically invalid in that you cherry picked your data set chosing only to look at fumbles. I was discussing turnovers.



that is ok.....Vick has 26 picks and would finish with roughly 40 if he continued (unlikely since he has not thrown one in 3 games) and Culpepper had 46 in those 3 seasons.........I apologize that I missed the differentiation but it doesn't change anything.....Culpepper is still King and I think Collins may be one also....not sure on him though......

and it still means that Vick will be sitting in 3 games if it continues
xsv
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 13 2012, 05:09 PM) *
... and it still means that Vick will be sitting in 3 games if it continues


Sounds like an absolute to me. I hate that kinda stuff.

Personally, I think if he fumbles twice or throws a couple ints early in the next game, he could get the hook. And I think it would be deservedly so.


D Rock
QUOTE (xsv @ Oct 13 2012, 09:43 PM) *
Sounds like an absolute to me. I hate that kinda stuff.

laugh.gif
Eyrie
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 13 2012, 04:23 PM) *
Vick has made countless mistakes this year, but he also has had four clutch drives. He, without question, has greatness inside him. He just needs to harness it and avoid the mistakes.

The problem with Vick is that you can't have the moments of greatness without the "WTF?" moments. He's not a great QB going through a sticky patch, nor is he an average QB who gives solid play without ever being a game breaker. He's an average QB only because he is both inconsistently excellent and inconsistently incompetent.

This makes him a poor fit for Reid. We saw when McNabb was in his prime that Reid will lean on a great QB with his playcalling, and with the likes of Feeley that Reid will settle for game management from an average QB. With Vick, Reid is relying on the moments of greatness and hoping that the incompetence doesn't cost us.

For that reason Foles would be a better bet for us right now, but the problems on the OL mean that we need need to stick with Vick and hope he doesn't keep giving the ball away.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (xsv @ Oct 13 2012, 05:43 PM) *
Sounds like an absolute to me. I hate that kinda stuff.

Personally, I think if he fumbles twice or throws a couple ints early in the next game, he could get the hook. And I think it would be deservedly so.


incorrect....you love them...I hate them and fell right into that one...well done....
xsv
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 14 2012, 09:47 AM) *
incorrect....you love them...


What, another absolute? Jeez, what's with you? If you're going to use an absolute like that, at least make sure you are only talking about yourself.

I don't like them either. I try to avoid using them. But, as you can attest, they slip out occasionally in passionate arguments.

What I have real problems with is when people don't qualify them with an 'in my opinion...', or 'I don't see how...' or 'it is my belief...', or even a simple 'i think...'

In other words...

"The Eagles will never win with Vick at QB"

Sounds a helluva lot worse than...

"I don't think the Eagles will ever win with Vick at QB."

They both still same the same thing, but the first sounds rude and condescending, like someone is trying to force their opinion on you.

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