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xsv
He refuses to learn how to play QB.

bwc2112
QUOTE (xsv @ Sep 23 2012, 05:39 PM) *
He refuses to learn how to play QB.

I am at the point I have to agree. Then the whole team is not even close to being on.
Eyrie
Two turnovers.

So far ....
SAM I Am
Kelvin Kolb - who never should have lost his job, and should still be here - is picking this team apart.
CT_Eagle
I guess this is what you get when Vick continues to turn the ball over and the defense fails to bail him out.
Dr. Claw
QUOTE (xsv @ Sep 23 2012, 05:39 PM) *
He refuses to learn how to play QB.


Andy and Marty refuse to stop calling play action.

Vick has actually been playing decently today in the passing game. the fumbles are nonsense and ultimately cost the game

but Nick Foles is not the answer now.

this is all on Andy/Marty's play calls EARLY in the game. Vick gets sacked on a PA on one of those early drives, losing 10 yards. the drive was effectively killed.

Kurt Coleman (a guy I like but was horrid today) blows over-the-top coverage on Fitzgerald

xsv
QUOTE (Dr. Claw @ Sep 23 2012, 06:29 PM) *
Andy and Marty refuse to stop calling play action.

Vick has actually been playing decently today in the passing game. the fumbles are nonsense and ultimately cost the game

but Nick Foles is not the answer now.

this is all on Andy/Marty's play calls EARLY in the game. Vick gets sacked on a PA on one of those early drives, losing 10 yards. the drive was effectively killed.

Kurt Coleman (a guy I like but was horrid today) blows over-the-top coverage on Fitzgerald


Play calling hasn't been great, but it's been overshadowed by some of the worst qb play I've ever seen.
Dr. Claw
QUOTE (xsv @ Sep 23 2012, 06:38 PM) *
Play calling hasn't been great, but it's been overshadowed by some of the worst qb play I've ever seen.


if Vick was still playing like he did in Week 1, you'd have a point.

Play calling today was the worst of the Eagles' worst with regards to the reality of having the backup-to-the-backup LT, backup C, one key WR out (Johnson was pretty good in relief), and Vick being what he is.

If the Eagles just ran the kind of offense they did in Week 2 maybe they would be better off. But nope. It's back to Week 1 madness. Pass all day, until the 2nd half. Play action pass even though there are few called runs.

I mean. No QB is going to succeed with that game plan, even in Madden.
D Rock
QUOTE (xsv @ Sep 23 2012, 09:39 PM) *
He refuses to learn how to play QB.

That guy sux. Fuck him. Bench hm. Fire him. Just don't make us watch more of his BullShit!!!

#overitalready
D Rock
QUOTE (Dr. Claw @ Sep 24 2012, 04:33 AM) *
if Vick was still playing like he did in Week 1, you'd have a point.

Play calling today was the worst of the Eagles' worst with regards to the reality of having the backup-to-the-backup LT, backup C, one key WR out (Johnson was pretty good in relief), and Vick being what he is.

If the Eagles just ran the kind of offense they did in Week 2 maybe they would be better off. But nope. It's back to Week 1 madness. Pass all day, until the 2nd half. Play action pass even though there are few called runs.

I mean. No QB is going to succeed with that game plan, even in Madden.

Play calling (which was terrible) will ALWAYS look like fucking garbage when your quarterback SUCKS that bad.
Dr. Claw
QUOTE (D Rock @ Sep 24 2012, 12:56 AM) *
Play calling (which was terrible) will ALWAYS look like fucking garbage when your quarterback SUCKS that bad.


The point is that that playcalling gets no better looking with a QB that SUCKS less and the same results happen in the end.
A play action pass on a 3rd and 9 looks like garbage REGARDLESS. that might as well be throwing an INT.
A play action pass early in the game instead of actually handing the ball off might as well be throwing an INT.

Vick's a scapegoat.

There is no excuse, whoever the QB is, to have the kind of talent the Eagles do at RB and insist on ignoring the run game until it's too late.

There is no excuse, whoever the QB is, to see that WRs are not getting open with the plays they use constantly, to continue those plays on passing downs.

There is no excuse for a veteran QB (or other veteran offensive player) to not know the art of securing the ball. But the above is the bigger problem.

If they let Vick go but retain Andy (or similar) and the same BS continues, remember who told you so.

The issue has always been Andy. Like 2010 doesn't sway the people who merely tolerated Vick's presence on the team, 1999-2012 doesn't sway me. Nearly every time the Eagles have struggled in the game the issues have stemmed from the game plan. There is no QB alive who could survive the worst of Andyball. Certainly not under the state of the O-Line and the competition level of the NFC who is now wise to Andy's tricks.
koolaidluke
Certainly he is a better QB than McNabb. But then again, McNabb was the greatest fraud in NFL history. He was not even a top 30 QB for several seasons of his career.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (xsv @ Sep 23 2012, 06:38 PM) *
Play calling hasn't been great, but it's been overshadowed by some of the worst qb play I've ever seen.


horrible game......and you are right.....I mean how can anyone not Qb getting hit every fucking play in 2 seconds after the snap.....your bias is a joke.......I am ambivalent about the QB position and you make me sound like a Vick supporter.....the entire team plays like dog shit and you pick the one guy who gets killed every play...sorry X but you need to open your eyes....did Vick fumble a punt? or block for himself? He missed a blitz but by that time he had to be numb to it.....

Terrible coach's loss........someone needs to tell Andy that you need to actually run the ball first to make play action actually work and then to sign a big WR because it was obvious that we missed Maclin........the all22 will probably show how tight the coverage was.....that should be interesting but this is a horrible organizational loss....horrible.......every single person sucked.....how they could be that unprepared.....
Dr. Claw
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Sep 24 2012, 10:00 AM) *
horrible game......and you are right.....I mean how can anyone not Qb getting hit every fucking play in 2 seconds after the snap.....your bias is a joke.......I am ambivalent about the QB position and you make me sound like a Vick supporter.....the entire team plays like dog shit and you pick the one guy who gets killed every play...sorry X but you need to open your eyes....did Vick fumble a punt? or block for himself? He missed a blitz but by that time he had to be numb to it.....

Terrible coach's loss........someone needs to tell Andy that you need to actually run the ball first to make play action actually work and then to sign a big WR because it was obvious that we missed Maclin........the all22 will probably show how tight the coverage was.....that should be interesting but this is a horrible organizational loss....horrible.......every single person sucked.....how they could be that unprepared.....


Bingo. This is the argument I'm making. People think that all the pushback I'm giving the bloodthirsty, anti-Vick crowd is largely in support of his poor play across the season. I'm looking at Vick on a game to game basis. I just looked at the box score.

Kolb was 17/24/222/2 TD/0 INT passing, 4 carries for 18 yards
Vick was 17/37/217/0 TD/0 INT passing, 4 carries for 28 yards

they got largely the same amount of yards on the same amount of completions. but damn, look at the attempts.

Comparatively, the RBs carried the ball 17 times for 98 yards (Eagles) to 21 times for 101 yards.

part of the the difference was turnovers. Vick is to blame for 2 of those.


it seems that the Vick hate takes a backseat to the general unpreparedness and inappropriate game plan and play calling.

IMO Vick is salvageable. Andy and Marty are stubborn. And we've seen this "Andyball" for so many years. The film will tell the real tale: STOP THE PLAY ACTION WHEN YOUR O-LINE SUX AND YOU DON'T RUN THE BALL.

if Vick fumbles, throws INTs and all of that in a balance game, I'll be on the bandwagon. For now? He takes a backseat.
Phits
QUOTE (koolaidluke @ Sep 24 2012, 07:36 AM) *
the greatest fraud in NFL history.

It's becoming apparent that our HC is the greatest fraud in NFL history.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (Phits @ Sep 24 2012, 11:43 AM) *
It's becoming apparent that our HC is the greatest fraud in NFL history.


Please. He's just had 14 years of shiity luck with fraud QBs - AIN'T HIS FAULT!
mcnabbulous
You all acknowledge that we were playing a really solid defense with our third string LT, right?

Obviously it was a shitty game...one of the worst I recall, but you're a bunch of fucking drama queens.

We just lost to the same team that went into New England and beat the Patriots. We're going to get stronger as the year goes on, as we always do.
CT_Eagle
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Sep 24 2012, 05:14 PM) *
We're going to get stronger as the year goes on, as we always do.


I don't think you finished your sentance.

It should read "We're going to get stronger as the year goes on, as we always do. This will result in us either just missing the playoffs or getting in and sent home early becasue Michael Pick still cannot secure the football or read a defense."

That looks better. biggrin.gif
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Sep 24 2012, 12:35 PM) *
That looks better. biggrin.gif


It looks more accurate.

Not 'better.'
Reality Fan
QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Sep 24 2012, 12:35 PM) *
I don't think you finished your sentance.

It should read "We're going to get stronger as the year goes on, as we always do. This will result in us either just missing the playoffs or getting in and sent home early becasue Mike Pick still cannot secure the football or read a defense."

That looks better. biggrin.gif


so if I get your point it was Vick's fault that he had to run for his life as soon as the ball was snapped? How many games do you have to watch and listen to the announcers talk about about how many times he is hit to wake up......3 games and sall they talk about is how many hits he takes and not all of them are from holding the ball too long and Sunday they definitely were not....
xsv
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Sep 24 2012, 12:38 PM) *
so if I get your point it was Vick's fault that he had to run for his life as soon as the ball was snapped? How many games do you have to watch and listen to the announcers talk about about how many times he is hit to wake up......3 games and sall they talk about is how many hits he takes and not all of them are from holding the ball too long and Sunday they definitely were not....

I think most of his hits are from holding the ball too long.
D Rock
QUOTE (xsv @ Sep 24 2012, 05:40 PM) *
I think most of his hits are from holding the ball too long.

yup
JeeQ
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Sep 24 2012, 09:08 AM) *
Please. He's just had 14 years of shiity luck with fraud QBs - AIN'T HIS FAULT!


laugh.gif We've been losing for 14 years and nearly the entire team has been revamped from top to bottom, staff and front office included. Except there's still one constant....hmm.... One day everyone will come to terms with the fact there's no QB on the planet good enough to overcome Reid's inadequacies as a coach. Keep shouting Foles era though, I'm sure that will go over as well as the McNabb, Kolb, Garcia, Feely, McMahon eras. The most popular player on any Eagles team will always be the backup QB unfortunately. Because we all know when a 3rd Round Rookie QB comes in for his first game all those turnovers, penalties, porous O-Line, and shoddy play-calling will instantly vanish.
xsv
QUOTE (JeeQ @ Sep 24 2012, 01:01 PM) *
laugh.gif We've been losing for 14 years and nearly the entire team has been revamped from top to bottom, staff and front office included. Except there's still one constant....hmm....


Exactly! We haven't had a accurate QB yet.
JeeQ
QUOTE (xsv @ Sep 24 2012, 10:04 AM) *
Exactly! We haven't had a accurate QB yet.


At this point it doesn't matter if Jesus Christ was our QB. I'd give him a week before the fans chant for Allah to come in off the bench
Phits
QUOTE (JeeQ @ Sep 24 2012, 01:25 PM) *
At this point it doesn't matter if Jesus Christ was our QB. I'd give him a week before the fans chant for Allah to come in off the bench

cheers.gif
D Rock
QUOTE (JeeQ @ Sep 24 2012, 05:25 PM) *
At this point it doesn't matter if Jesus Christ was our QB. I'd give him a week before the fans chant for Allah to come in off the bench

If jesus generated this many turn overs, held the ball this long, missed this many reads and generally stunk this bad . . . praise allah.
HobbEs
QUOTE
I think most of his hits are from holding the ball too long.


This is true...but why is it true?

I think that most of the problem stems from the play design that we run nowadays. Gone is the West Coast Offense where everything was a three step drop, a quick slant or a check down to a back in the flat. We also got away from the screen pass (we used to be the best screen team in the league). Now we're running routes that are 8 - 10 yards deep and Vick has to take a five or seven step drop. He's holding on to the ball longer because the plays are taking longer to develop downfield.

Now, this doesn't excuse him from locking on to his primary receiver or making the other piss poor decsions we've seen from him this year. In fact it compounds the main problem which is the brilliant scheme in which he plays in. Logic would dictate that if you have a 3rd string LT and a smallish QB who's getting the daylights beat out of him you would help them both out by committing to a running game (never mind we have one of the best RBs in the game) and going back to the short/quick passing attack. I guess this would make too much sense?

Pay attention to the playcalling once Vick gets the stuffing knocked out of him and we have to play Foles for a few games. You'll see how Andy protects a rookie...which is how he should be protecting Vick. Our whole offense is fundamentally flawed right now. Sad thing is it won't change unless we have a new coach.



xsv
QUOTE (JeeQ @ Sep 24 2012, 01:25 PM) *
At this point it doesn't matter if Jesus Christ was our QB. I'd give him a week before the fans chant for Allah to come in off the bench


If Jesus had a 66.2 rating and was turning the ball over 3 times as often as he was throwing TDs, then fans would have every right.

No one keeps a starting job with a 66.2 rating and times times as many turnovers as TDs, not even Jesus.
CT_Eagle
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Sep 24 2012, 04:38 PM) *
so if I get your point it was Vick's fault that he had to run for his life as soon as the ball was snapped?


I already stated after the Arizona game that I thought the play calling and offensive line were horrible. So to answer your questions, no it was not Vick's fault that he had to run for his life on every play. However, there were more than enough plays where Vick simply held on to the ball too long for me to state emphatically that he was a big contributer to the fiasco that we witnessed on Sunday. Not to mention the getting blind sided prior to the half. Listen to Vick's excuse in the post-game press conference for that one. It says all you need to know about where Vick's head is at with regards to being a QB.

QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Sep 24 2012, 04:38 PM) *
How many games do you have to watch and listen to the announcers talk about about how many times he is hit to wake up......3 games and sall they talk about is how many hits he takes and not all of them are from holding the ball too long and Sunday they definitely were not....


If the announcer's opinion is that Vick bears no responsibility for the a good percentage of the hits he is taking, there is no amount of listening to them that will get me to the point were I absolve Vick. To put it mildly, the announcers would be wrong.
xsv
QUOTE (HobbEs @ Sep 24 2012, 02:19 PM) *
This is true...but why is it true?

I think that most of the problem stems from the play design that we run nowadays. Gone is the West Coast Offense where everything was a three step drop, a quick slant or a check down to a back in the flat. We also got away from the screen pass (we used to be the best screen team in the league). Now we're running routes that are 8 - 10 yards deep and Vick has to take a five or seven step drop. He's holding on to the ball longer because the plays are taking longer to develop downfield.

Now, this doesn't excuse him from locking on to his primary receiver or making the other piss poor decsions we've seen from him this year. In fact it compounds the main problem which is the brilliant scheme in which he plays in. Logic would dictate that if you have a 3rd string LT and a smallish QB who's getting the daylights beat out of him you would help them both out by committing to a running game (never mind we have one of the best RBs in the game) and going back to the short/quick passing attack. I guess this would make too much sense?

Pay attention to the playcalling once Vick gets the stuffing knocked out of him and we have to play Foles for a few games. You'll see how Andy protects a rookie...which is how he should be protecting Vick. Our whole offense is fundamentally flawed right now. Sad thing is it won't change unless we have a new coach.


I'm for a new coach. I think the play calls suck.

I don't think you can say that Vick holds on to the ball too long instead of throwing it away becuase of the play calls. I think he has trouble reading defenses and I think he's slow to go through his progressions.

With 6 seconds left on the clock, you can't tell me that the play call was the reason the he held on to the ball for 4 seconds before being sacked.
CT_Eagle
I think what we have right now is an unholy trinity of cluster fucks screwing up the offense.

At the top we have Reid's ridiculous play calling and time management.

Not to be outdone we have a QB that has always relied on his mobility to compensate for his lack of decisiveness and poor decision making.

And last but not lease, we have an offensive line that going into Sunday was leading the league in holding penalties and has executed very poorly in pass protection.

xsv
QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Sep 24 2012, 02:32 PM) *
I think what we have right now is an unholy trinity of cluster fucks screwing up the offense.

At the top we have Reid's ridiculous play calling and time management.

Not to be outdone we have a QB that has always relied on his mobility to compensate for his lack of decisiveness and poor decision making.

And last but not lease, we have an offensive line that going into Sunday was leading the league in holding penalties and has executed very poorly in pass protection.


True, all 3.
GQSmooth
QUOTE (HobbEs @ Sep 24 2012, 02:19 PM) *
This is true...but why is it true?

I think that most of the problem stems from the play design that we run nowadays. Gone is the West Coast Offense where everything was a three step drop, a quick slant or a check down to a back in the flat. We also got away from the screen pass (we used to be the best screen team in the league). Now we're running routes that are 8 - 10 yards deep and Vick has to take a five or seven step drop. He's holding on to the ball longer because the plays are taking longer to develop downfield.

Now, this doesn't excuse him from locking on to his primary receiver or making the other piss poor decsions we've seen from him this year. In fact it compounds the main problem which is the brilliant scheme in which he plays in. Logic would dictate that if you have a 3rd string LT and a smallish QB who's getting the daylights beat out of him you would help them both out by committing to a running game (never mind we have one of the best RBs in the game) and going back to the short/quick passing attack. I guess this would make too much sense?

Pay attention to the playcalling once Vick gets the stuffing knocked out of him and we have to play Foles for a few games. You'll see how Andy protects a rookie...which is how he should be protecting Vick. Our whole offense is fundamentally flawed right now. Sad thing is it won't change unless we have a new coach.

This post is so on the money
D Rock
QUOTE (GQSmooth @ Sep 24 2012, 09:08 PM) *
This post is so on the money

Accept for the fact that it's, you know . . . wrong.

Vick doesn't take 7 step drops because of some increased time for route development. Vick takes 7 step drops because he's too short to see over the mud on a 5 step drop. This was discussed and reported on ad nausium in 2010.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (HobbEs @ Sep 24 2012, 02:19 PM) *
Pay attention to the playcalling once Vick gets the stuffing knocked out of him and we have to play Foles for a few games. You'll see how Andy protects a rookie...which is how he should be protecting Vick. Our whole offense is fundamentally flawed right now. Sad thing is it won't change unless we have a new coach.


I'm doing good in the baldness department, but I've almost pulled my hair out for years watching this shit. Whenever McNabb went down, Reid would call a balanced game with his backup, and we'd routinely win pounding Westbrook - then when McNabb returned we'd go back to 50 passes a game. If Foles goes in, you can bet we'd be pounding Shady, then Vick comes back and we pass 50 times a game again.

It's absolutely maddening, considering when our most talented QB was out there, he'd abandon something that worked with a 2nd or 3rd stringer.
HobbEs
QUOTE
Accept for the fact that it's, you know . . . wrong.


The fact that Vick is short only compounds the problems. I didn't record the Cards game (nor do I want to see it again) but I'd bet you a box of Tastykakes that most of our routes are well beyond the the 5 yard mark. This means our QB is holding on to the ball longer...by design.

mcnabbulous
QUOTE (D Rock @ Sep 24 2012, 04:34 PM) *
Accept for the fact that it's, you know . . . wrong.

Vick doesn't take 7 step drops because of some increased time for route development. Vick takes 7 step drops because he's too short to see over the mud on a 5 step drop. This was discussed and reported on ad nausium in 2010.

I think it's this and the fact that we don't have big bodied receivers willing or capable of running those routes. Our guys are better in space, so the routes are designed to allow for it.

Especially when Damaris Johnson is on the field instead of Maclin.
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