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koolaidluke
Fans have every right to complain about calls that don't go their way, but the Ravens are the biggest bunch of crybaby punks ever. Everytime they lose they blame the officials. That team talks so much shit and can't back it up.

It starts with the coach, and Harbaugh is a born loser. He was a tool when he was with us and he is still a tool. He's been living off the success of Newsome and the Ravens organization. If he hadn't landed Flacco he wouldn't be doing any better than Brian Billick did.

But at least Billick won a Superbowl.
mcnabbulous
I like Harbaugh, but they clearly are a whiny bunch of bitches. That starts with Flacco, or as my phone likes to autocorrect to, Flaccid.
make_it_rain
I didn't see the Offensive PI call on Jones, was it really that bad? If you want a good laugh, head over to a Ravens board and check out the top 5 threads, its basically one huge circle jerk of them crying about the refs.

Whatever, sometimes you get some calls, sometimes you get hosed by them.
koolaidluke
the commentors after the game all thought the offensive PI call was legit. Whether it was or not the call is something you barely see and it came on such a critical play that it was gonna raise a lot of eyebrows.
Dr. Claw
QUOTE (koolaidluke @ Sep 16 2012, 10:05 PM) *
Fans have every right to complain about calls that don't go their way, but the Ravens are the biggest bunch of crybaby punks ever. Everytime they lose they blame the officials. That team talks so much shit and can't back it up.

It starts with the coach, and Harbaugh is a born loser. He was a tool when he was with us and he is still a tool. He's been living off the success of Newsome and the Ravens organization. If he hadn't landed Flacco he wouldn't be doing any better than Brian Billick did.

But at least Billick won a Superbowl.


the refs DID suck though, that can't be denied.

we got some, they got some (I will argue one of those first runs by Ray Rice, might have been the 40 yarder was enabled by holding all day. The LT had Trent Cole's jersey right as Ray was making his move)

they were confused so much as to spot the ball on numerous occasions, one couldn't even throw the flag in time, it's like... I know these guys are new, but if there are complaints about the officials in that game specifically, I wouldn't even argue.

the NFL needs to resolve that dispute immediately and get the regular refs to work.

for as much time and energy I spend consuming their product, I've really been disgusted by how they have been doing business in recent years (Thursday night games all season, attempting to add more preseason games, the moves made for "player safety", the Goodelling, etc)
Dreagon
QUOTE (Dr. Claw @ Sep 17 2012, 07:44 AM) *
the refs DID suck though, that can't be denied.

we got some, they got some (I will argue one of those first runs by Ray Rice, might have been the 40 yarder was enabled by holding all day. The LT had Trent Cole's jersey right as Ray was making his move)

they were confused so much as to spot the ball on numerous occasions, one couldn't even throw the flag in time, it's like... I know these guys are new, but if there are complaints about the officials in that game specifically, I wouldn't even argue.

the NFL needs to resolve that dispute immediately and get the regular refs to work.

for as much time and energy I spend consuming their product, I've really been disgusted by how they have been doing business in recent years (Thursday night games all season, attempting to add more preseason games, the moves made for "player safety", the Goodelling, etc)


Indeed! The refs did not cover themselves with glory yesterday...in a lot of games. They didn't make a difference in ours, but they were still very subpar. The NFL needs to suck it up on this one and pay the real refs. They pretty much won against the NFLPA, so they ought to give a little on this one, call it good, and get the refereeing up to standards.

Reality Fan
a very simple example of how it was not sterling either way was the 3rd down scramble by Vick to the 5, well, really to the 3 1/2 but they marked it at the 5 and the replay clearly showed his knees never touched the ground and they covered themselves with "forward progress" which was ridiculous because his forward progress carried him and the ball to the 3 1/2. That was huge because the Birds got a FG instead of 1st a goal at the 3 or 4.

The bottom line on the PI call was that the WR pushed the facemask, that made it an easy call no matter how light the contact.......they got some sheap calls themselves, Nahmdi on the sideline breakup? that was ticky tack at best and if I recall that was a 3rd down play on a drive that led to a FG.
xsv
The offensive PI call on Jones is the one they are really complaining about the most, and he clearly put his hand on the defender's chest , extended both arms and pushed off. The regular refs would have called that one every time. They always call OPI when the receiver pushes and extends his arms.

The other call they didn't like was the Vick non-fumble on the gamewinning drive, nad it was pretty clear his arm was still going forward, even after he was hit.

I don't think they have a leg to stand on here. If there's one thing they can say it's that these refs aren't calling the bump and run PIs against defenses as much as the regular refs do, but I think that pretty much goes both ways.

I do hate how long it takes these refs to get the ball spotted in the right place, and I'm not sure but I think we got fucked on that one play where the ball should have been spotted from the spot of the foul and not the spot of the dead ball.
xsv
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Sep 17 2012, 09:50 AM) *
a very simple example of how it was not sterling either way was the 3rd down scramble by Vick to the 5, well, really to the 3 1/2 but they marked it at the 5 and the replay clearly showed his knees never touched the ground and they covered themselves with "forward progress" which was ridiculous because his forward progress carried him and the ball to the 3 1/2. That was huge because the Birds got a FG instead of 1st a goal at the 3 or 4.

The bottom line on the PI call was that the WR pushed the facemask, that made it an easy call no matter how light the contact.......they got some sheap calls themselves, Nahmdi on the sideline breakup? that was ticky tack at best and if I recall that was a 3rd down play on a drive that led to a FG.


I replayed that one about a million times. The ball was clearly further up than they marked it, but not quite to the 4. It was about the 4 and 1/4. They had to get to the 4. I think the refs got that one right.

On the OPI, the WR extended his arms, and that's what the refs look for. They got that one right, too.

The only thing the refs really blew, IMO, was spotting the ball after fouls. I'm reasonably sure they got at least one of those wrong, and they took forever on all of them, really disrupting the flow of the game.
koolaidluke
players, fans and coaches are all disgusted by the officiating. To me the real issue is the Ravens blaming the loss on the refs.

We know how much it sucks to feel like the refs have taken the game away from you, but our guys always take responsibility when they lose. They don't just make a billion excuses.

Vick could call for a flag on pretty much every time he gets hit if he wanted to, but he doesn't. Our guys are warriors and the Ravens are a bunch of bullies who crumble under pressure.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (xsv @ Sep 17 2012, 08:59 AM) *
I replayed that one about a million times. The ball was clearly further up than they marked it, but not quite to the 4. It was about the 4 and 1/4. They had to get to the 4. I think the refs got that one right.

The refs were correct that he didn't get the first down. They were wrong in spotting it at the 5 and charging us a timeout/failed challenge when the ball was clearly at least at the 4.5.
GQSmooth
The refs made the correct call on the PI, what pisses people off is they were not consistent throughout the game. On Vick's forward pass the right call should have been Vick grounding the ball so yeah they have a right to be pissed. On our side there was the poor spotting on Vick's "slide". Should have been 4th and inches there. There were a few missed unprotected receiver calls, at least one to Celek and one to Jackson. I was upset they called roughing the passer on Babin, but weren't giving Vick the same call
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (GQSmooth @ Sep 17 2012, 09:50 AM) *
The refs made the correct call on the PI, what pisses people off is they were not consistent throughout the game.

Exactly. I'll defer to what I said in the thread about the officials from a few weeks ago...


QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Aug 30 2012, 09:26 PM) *
The pussification of the game has nothing to do with the refs. It has to do with the rules. All the refs should be accountable for is consistently calling the game based on the defined rules.

The inconsistency is going to drive people nuts this year. Rest assured.

Reality Fan
QUOTE (GQSmooth @ Sep 17 2012, 10:50 AM) *
The refs made the correct call on the PI, what pisses people off is they were not consistent throughout the game. On Vick's forward pass the right call should have been Vick grounding the ball so yeah they have a right to be pissed. On our side there was the poor spotting on Vick's "slide". Should have been 4th and inches there. There were a few missed unprotected receiver calls, at least one to Celek and one to Jackson. I was upset they called roughing the passer on Babin, but weren't giving Vick the same call


The reason it was not intentional grounding was 3 fold......first, it was in the general direction of McCoy, second, his throwing motion was affected by the hit and third,(and most important and undeniable) he was outside the tackle when he threw it....the tackle was lined up well inside the hash marks and when Vick threw it he was clearly outside the tackle....all 3 together were the reason it was not IG.
CT_Eagle
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Sep 17 2012, 04:43 PM) *
The reason it was not intentional grounding was 3 fold......first, it was in the general direction of McCoy, second, his throwing motion was affected by the hit and third,(and most important and undeniable) he was outside the tackle when he threw it....the tackle was lined up well inside the hash marks and when Vick threw it he was clearly outside the tackle....all 3 together were the reason it was not IG.


I did not see any eligible receivers during the replays and I was looking for them. You state McCoy was there, McNabbulous says Celek was in the end zone. All I saw were lineman.

I don't think getting hit while throwing has any bearing on wether or not intentional is called. I asked about this yesterday because I am not clear on the rule. It seems to me that the refs should not be concerned about what the QB's intent was. That is impossible to judge and the refs should not be put into that situation.

I agree with point number 3 and I did not think of that yesterday. From what I remember he was outside of the tackle box. I do not remember if the ball made it back to the line of scrimmage which is also a requirement.
CT_Eagle
I decided to look up this rule for myself and here is what I found.

"Intentional grounding will not be called when a passer, while out of the pocket and facing an imminent loss of yardage, throws a pass that lands at or beyond the line of scrimmage, even if no offensive player(s) have a realistic chance to catch the ball (including if the ball lands out of bounds over the sideline or end line). "

Based on that reading, it does not matter if McCoy or Celek were in the area as long as Vick was out of the pocket and the ball made it back to the LOS. That to me justifies the call.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Sep 17 2012, 10:57 AM) *
I did not see any eligible receivers during the replays and I was looking for them. You state McCoy was there, McNabbulous says Celek was in the end zone. All I saw were lineman.

If you fast-forward to 2:30, you can watch the play. You'll see Celek's route takes him to the back corner of the end zone. I'm positive that's where Vick was attempting to throw the ball when he got hit.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/philadelphia-eag...gles-highlights
Reality Fan
QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Sep 17 2012, 11:57 AM) *
I did not see any eligible receivers during the replays and I was looking for them. You state McCoy was there, McNabbulous says Celek was in the end zone. All I saw were lineman.

I don't think getting hit while throwing has any bearing on wether or not intentional is called. I asked about this yesterday because I am not clear on the rule. It seems to me that the refs should not be concerned about what the QB's intent was. That is impossible to judge and the refs should not be put into that situation.

I agree with point number 3 and I did not think of that yesterday. From what I remember he was outside of the tackle box. I do not remember if the ball made it back to the line of scrimmage which is also a requirement.


intent is definitely important.....otherwise anytime a qb is hit in the pocket with his arm going forward he would be called for IG if the ball falls among his lineman, the officials cannot interpret intent if the hit affects the QBs throwing motion
by the way, see NFL rule book for reference
Section 2 Intentional Grounding http://static.nfl.com/static/content/publi...Pass_Fumble.pdf

that being said McCoy is to the left of Vick at around the 4, near the sideline and Celek is in the endzone and I think it is Havili who is coming from the right and is just inside the endzone
CT_Eagle
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Sep 17 2012, 05:16 PM) *
intent is definitely important.....otherwise anytime a qb is hit in the pocket with his arm going forward he would be called for IG if the ball falls among his lineman, the officials cannot interpret intent if the hit affects the QBs throwing motion
by the way, see NFL rule book for reference
Section 2 Intentional Grounding http://static.nfl.com/static/content/publi...Pass_Fumble.pdf

that being said McCoy is to the left of Vick at around the 4, near the sideline and Celek is in the endzone and I think it is Havili who is coming from the right and is just inside the endzone


Thanks for the link to the rules. Those rules are more complete than what I found earlier.

For future reference, I do have to point out that "intent" is never mentioned in the rule which is a good thing. The refs cannot keep up with what they actually see much less what the players are thinking on any given play. The rule does clearly state that if the QB is hit during a throw than intentional grounding will not be called if the ball does not land near an eligible receiver. It also states that if the QB is hit during the throw that the ball does not have to reach the LOS. That was not mentioned in the link I found.

As I stated in my previous post, I do not think this was a blown call by the refs. I just want to get that out there before I have to answer a post based on the reader responding to a opinion that I do not have.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Sep 17 2012, 12:41 PM) *
Thanks for the link to the rules. Those rules are more complete than what I found earlier.

For future reference, I do have to point out that "intent" is never mentioned in the rule which is a good thing. The refs cannot keep up with what they actually see much less what the players are thinking on any given play. The rule does clearly state that if the QB is hit during a throw than intentional grounding will not be called if the ball does not land near an eligible receiver. It also states that if the QB is hit during the throw that the ball does not have to reach the LOS. That was not mentioned in the link I found.

As I stated in my previous post, I do not think this was a blown call by the refs. I just want to get that out there before I have to answer a post based on the reader responding to a opinion that I do not have.



you had me at "Thanks"..........lol
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (koolaidluke @ Sep 16 2012, 10:05 PM) *
Fans have every right to complain about calls that don't go their way, but the Ravens are the biggest bunch of crybaby punks ever. Everytime they lose they blame the officials. That team talks so much shit and can't back it up.

It starts with the coach, and Harbaugh is a born loser. He was a tool when he was with us and he is still a tool. He's been living off the success of Newsome and the Ravens organization. If he hadn't landed Flacco he wouldn't be doing any better than Brian Billick did.

But at least Billick won a Superbowl.


It's fun to laugh about Ravens' fans being whiny little bitches, but you can rest assure at some point a blown call by a ref will cost us a game, then we'll all be doing the same thing. The fact is, the Ravens got screwed on that call. The other fact is, they blew their other chances and we won. It'll be in reverse at some point this year.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Sep 17 2012, 03:52 PM) *
It's fun to laugh about Ravens' fans being whiny little bitches

I think most people have a problem with the players being whiny bitches. Not so much the fans. Fans always bitch about officiating when their team loses.

Also, you're on record as being in favor of keeping these shitty refs...so there's that.
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Sep 17 2012, 04:59 PM) *
Also, you're on record as being in favor of keeping these shitty refs...so there's that.

These replacement refs are no shittier than the regular refs. calls are bound to be blown and missed, that's the human element.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Sep 17 2012, 04:59 PM) *
Also, you're on record as being in favor of keeping these shitty refs...so there's that.


Yes I am, if for no other reason than I assumed they would call a looser game and 'let em play.' So what? Unless a bunch of robots are doing the officiating, there will always be mistakes. Next week it may go the opposite way. I'm just saying enjoy it when it goes your way.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Phits @ Sep 17 2012, 04:07 PM) *
These replacement refs are no shittier than the regular refs. calls are bound to be blown and missed, that's the human element.

I would say that these guys pose a safety risk to the game.

To say they're not shittier than the regular refs is quite Phitsian of you.
Phits
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Sep 17 2012, 05:19 PM) *
I would say that these guys pose a safety risk to the game.

To say they're not shittier than the regular refs is quite Phitsian of you.

You're welcome to your opinion, i don't share the same. The game in general is a safety risk. One zebra for another hardly constitutes the same. Let me know when one of these replacements f*cks up the coin toss in the SB, until then I would say they are doing as well a job if not better than the regulars.
mcnabbulous
They called this a fumble...



That's on par with fucking up a coin toss.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Sep 17 2012, 05:54 PM) *
They called this a fumble...



That's on par with fucking up a coin toss.


sorry on this one pal but while they take way too long to make some calls and make the game a little choppy, I have seen far worse than that from the regulars and there was not as much replay as this year to correct the shitty officiating. The regulars are running down that same union highway of no accountability much like the umps did in baseball and I am proud that the NFL is not letting that happen. The current refs will progress and by next year the talent pool will only deepen.......I say fuck em', they can go on to those other more important things in their life without worrying about this part time job interrupting.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Sep 17 2012, 05:54 PM) *
They called this a fumble...



That's on par with fucking up a coin toss.


I agree on this one - that's 2 huge calls yesterday that they blew, both went our way and meant the game.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Sep 17 2012, 06:04 PM) *
The current refs will progress and by next year the talent pool will only deepen.......I say fuck em', they can go on to those other more important things in their life without worrying about this part time job interrupting.


And this is why I am on record as being for the replacements - honestly, I wish they would do the same thing with the players next time they went on strike. 3 years of college talent anew entering the league, we'd all forget about these guys.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Sep 17 2012, 05:19 PM) *
I agree on this one - that's 2 huge calls yesterday that they blew, both went our way and meant the game.


How did that go our way? They had to go to replay, which fortunately was available.
md717
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Sep 16 2012, 10:57 PM) *
Flacco, or as my phone likes to autocorrect to, Flaccid.
Nice!
Reality Fan
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Sep 17 2012, 06:19 PM) *
I agree on this one - that's 2 huge calls yesterday that they blew, both went our way and meant the game.


what was the other call? The offensive PI? The regular refs make the same call....not only did he push off with both hands, he did so with his arms extended and he pushed the facemask....they can cry all they want but that gets called every time..

and read the rule....there was no fumble OR intentional grounding......

pretty simple stuff actually
xsv
As others have said, I'm not sure they blew any calls. *Maybe* the PI call on Aso. I think they initially got a couple of things wrong, but after replay got it right.

I do think they're having trouble spotting the ball. On the MNF game, they somehow gave the Bronco's an extra 6 yards and that drive before the half.
Reality Fan
I agree on the ball spotting and the other problem is the delay in getting calls right.......but that is to be expected in the early going.....lets face it, the former officials got things wrong with lots of experience so I don't mind these guys......as the season goes on the problems will work themselves out.....my biggest problem is the ass kissing of the former officials that the media has taken on as a personal vendetta against the new guys......it is shameful. I would love to see the NFL come out and say "we tried to negotiate a contract, they don't want to negotiate and so we are moving on, there will be no more negotiating and we will continue to train and hire officials going forward and we wish all former officials the best in the future endeavors, we thank them for their service". That would end most of the media horseshit on the subject.

Nahmdi said it best when he pointed out that the new refs were not here last year and they are learning.......amen
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Sep 17 2012, 06:29 PM) *
How did that go our way?


wacko.gif
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Sep 17 2012, 09:17 PM) *
pretty simple stuff actually


Like being able to admit that if both calls harmed us, you'd be screaming for the refs heads. They called a very inconsistent game in terms of contact. And I don't care what anyone says, that was a fumble.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Sep 18 2012, 12:41 PM) *
And I don't care what anyone says, that was a fumble.

Don't let facts get in the way of your ignorance.

What part made it the fumble? His arm clearly going forward? The ball landing 3-4 yards in front of where he released it?
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Sep 18 2012, 02:08 PM) *
Don't let facts get in the way of your ignorance.


You suggest that a ball going forward means there's no fumble, and accuse others of ignorance.....stick to menstruating over JoePa.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Sep 18 2012, 01:17 PM) *
You suggest that a ball going forward means there's no fumble, and accuse others of ignorance.....stick to menstruating over JoePa.

No, the ball going forward 4 yards after watching his arm going forward means there was no fumble.

Edit: If you really think that was a fumble, than you know less about football than I had previously considered.

Additional edit: I love how you leave out the arm going forward, which was the first point I made. What a joke you are.
xsv
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Sep 18 2012, 02:17 PM) *
You suggest that a ball going forward means there's no fumble, and accuse others of ignorance.....stick to menstruating over JoePa.


We went through this pretty thoroughly in an earlier thread, which included direct links to the rule in question. The rule specifically states that if he is hit, and his arm is going forward with the ball in his hand, then the ball doesn't have to get to the LOS and the ball doesn't have to be anywhere near a receiver, and it's not a fumble or grounding.

Believe me, I would have been OK with placing the blame squarely on Vick's shoulders for that play. But the fact is, the refs got it right. It's indisputable.
D Rock
QUOTE (xsv @ Sep 18 2012, 08:38 PM) *
It's indisputable.

Of course it is. But some folks simply can't resist any opportunity to be a dik. (as is evidenced by this post wink.gif )
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (D Rock @ Sep 19 2012, 12:12 AM) *
some folks simply can't resist any opportunity to be a dik. (as is evidenced by this post wink.gif )


As is evidenced by just about everytime you show up to troll for a sentence or two.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (xsv @ Sep 18 2012, 04:38 PM) *
It's indisputable.


No it's not - that's the whole point - the ball comes loose at a point when it's disputable that his arm was moving forward. If it was indisputable, people wouldn't be bitching about it.
xsv
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Sep 19 2012, 12:24 AM) *
No it's not - that's the whole point - the ball comes loose at a point when it's disputable that his arm was moving forward. If it was indisputable, people wouldn't be bitching about it.


Yes, it is.

It doesn't matter if it's loose in his hand after the hit, the ball is still clearly propelled forward by his hand after the hit. Not only forward, but he actually still puts rotation on it after the hit.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Sep 18 2012, 11:24 PM) *
If it was indisputable, people wouldn't be bitching about it.

The only people bitching about it are Ravens fans/Ray Lewis and you.

Those people are all idiots. You're judged by the company you keep.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Sep 19 2012, 01:06 PM) *
The only people bitching about it are Ravens fans/Ray Lewis and you.

Those people are all idiots. You're judged by the company you keep.


You have to put little 14-year old bitch-ass petty insults in every post you make, so check your own company first. If you aren't intelligent enough to join a conversation without doing so, then back off and let the men talk.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Sep 19 2012, 12:24 AM) *
No it's not - that's the whole point - the ball comes loose at a point when it's disputable that his arm was moving forward. If it was indisputable, people wouldn't be bitching about it.


now that is simply untrue, people will bitch about anything...........but the clear video evidence made the argument moot......hence indisputable.........you can argue that the sun comes up in the west but the video evidence will prove it wrong and the mere fact that you want to argue to the contrary does not make it disputable
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