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Zero
Oh, great. Just when our Opti Mystic juices are flowing and we're all getting jacked for 2012 Eagles football, more shit to hit the wall. We all bitch about the officiating from time to time, but these guys don't have an easy job and newbies aren't likely to do nearly as good.
QUOTE
The prospect of replacement officials for the upcoming NFL season became very real Monday after the league locked out existing referees when mediation over contract negotiations stalled.

"We did not begin to contact potential replacements until well after the union advised us in March of its intention to take a strike vote and told us of its plan to drag out the negotiations until late summer," NFL spokesman Greg Aiello said in a statement. "We obviously could not be put in a position of the union calling a strike once the season had begun."

The NFL Referees Association said the NFL began looking at replacements before mediation negotiations were complete, signaling the league "never intended to work toward a fair agreement," according to a statement. Officials added that the NFL took less than five minutes to review their most recent proposal.

The saber-rattling seemingly came out of nowhere as the sides appeared to be headed toward a new labor pact a few weeks ago. The NFL's move to begin hiring new officials didn't sit well with the NFL Players Association, which said in a statement that replacement officials ("scabs") might not be equipped to handle the increased attention to player safety.

The NFL said the officials who have been targeted for hire are "professionals who officiate games at a high level and have backgrounds similar to current NFL officials." The league said it has offered officials a seven-year package that offered annual compensation increases between 5 and 11 percent.

No new talks are scheduled, but the NFLRA said veteran officials will continue to prepare for the upcoming season.


Rick
QUOTE (Zero @ Jun 5 2012, 06:20 AM) *
Oh, great. Just when our Opti Mystic juices are flowing and we're all getting jacked for 2012 Eagles football, more shit to hit the wall. We all bitch about the officiating from time to time, but these guys don't have an easy job and newbies aren't likely to do nearly as good.

Just another example of Goodell screwing up the league we so love. ::::face palm:::

After the fiasco of last offseason, this really shouldn't be happening. He needs to get everyone together and tell them to get this crap straightened out ...NOW!
HOUSEoPAIN
Has there ever been a more disgraceful era in football than Goodell's era?

I have to admit though, based on your headline I thought it was worse news, like more player disputes or something. On the bright side, maybe newbie refs won't treat Manning and Brady like they're in diapers.
BirdsWinBaby
Ref Scab #1: "Dude what are you doing?"

Scab#2: "what?

Scab#1" thats like TWO flags you threw on the defense. WTF Man!"

Scab#2 "well the first guy hit Vick way out of bounds and the other hit Vick in the head after he released the ball. arent those penalties?"

Scab#1 "of course they are but the old guys almost never threw flags like that. We're trying to get a permanent gig here when the old guys come back and you are screwing it up. STOP IT!"
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (BirdsWinBaby @ Jun 5 2012, 10:04 AM) *
Ref Scab #1: "Dude what are you doing?"

Scab#2: "what?

Scab#1" thats like TWO flags you threw on the defense. WTF Man!"

Scab#2 "well the first guy hit Vick way out of bounds and the other hit Vick in the head after he released the ball. arent those penalties?"

Scab#1 "of course they are but the old guys almost never threw flags like that. We're trying to get a permanent gig here when the old guys come back and you are screwing it up. STOP IT!"


laugh.gif

On a side note, I believe Tom Jackson one day made the point, the week after that game when Vick got plowed twice with no flag, he basically said a lot of refs were simple family men, many had dogs, and a lot of them probably have no qualms about seeing Vick get hurt or roughed up, something to that effect. It's a valid point, he's had some blatant dirty hits on him.
Jerome Brown Experience
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Jun 5 2012, 09:14 AM) *
Has there ever been a more disgraceful era in football than Goodell's era?


I don't agree with this statement. At all.

First off, the league is financially sound and the players, owners et al are all making good money, so he can't be doing that badly.

But he has also presided over one of football's most turbulent eras since the Roosevelt administration - an era where the study of football injuries has gone to the next level and we are finding out more and more about the dangers of playing a game played by (literally) millions. A pessimist can argue that Goodell has been strict regarding player safety because of the threat of lawsuits and that may be true, but he has not been a hypocrite. He has not turned a blind eye to big hits by stars, nor has he backed down from penalizing players and teams. Player safety is a critical issue that was ignored for decades and Goodell has catching up to do. He is taking his responsibility very seriously and I respect his approach.

Do I agree with every decision he makes? No, but overarchingly I feel that he is doing a good job - I can see NFL football through multiple different channels (internet, mobile phone, etc), the standard of play is high and everyone is making money.

As far as the referees, There are about a dozen who are actively good refs, the rest are all pretty interchangeable with refs who do D1 college games. This is a storm in a teacup.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Jerome Brown Experience @ Jun 5 2012, 02:09 PM) *
Do I agree with every decision he makes? No, but overarchingly I feel that he is doing a good job - I can see NFL football through multiple different channels (internet, mobile phone, etc), the standard of play is high and everyone is making money.

As far as the referees, There are about a dozen who are actively good refs, the rest are all pretty interchangeable with refs who do D1 college games. This is a storm in a teacup.



I agree....Goodell has guided the league through unprecedented growth, negotiated a labor deal that makes sense, ended the insanity that was the draft pay scale and handled a host of scandals relatively well. How anyone watching the games over the last 3-5 years can say the current officials do a great job is beyond me. There are a some very good refs but painfully few. The only way anyone would notice replacement refs is if they are told they are replacements....the threshold is set so low the new guys just have to be decent. I have no sympathy for these refs.....
Rick
The league has grown in spite of Goodell, not because of him. Don't get confused.

Let's not forget Goodell is behind turning the league into what it is today--a ghost of its former past. I don't disagree with trying to protect the players--I don't want to see these guys beaten to death the way they've been in the past--Goodell has been horrible about so many other things. Here's a list:

-He's behind the ridiculous rules against celebrating. You can work your butt off your whole life to make it to the NFL and score a touchdown but, if you do, don't celebrate. Yeah, that makes sense.
-He's behind the rules which make it impossible for the defense to cover receivers. This isn't a safety issue, this is a, "we want to drive up scoring," issue. Let them play defense!
-He was at the helm last year for the lockout/strike. Sorry, this was just plain stupid. While he can't make them settle (on either side), he can get them together and tell them to stop the childish crap. He never did that and allowed them to play money games with each other. He is, afterall, in charge of the league the last time I checked.
-He has been about as hypocritical as anyone every has been. On one hand, he is supposed to be tough on players when they break the rules, on the other hand, he looks the other way when players break the rules. Our QB is the biggest example of this but there have been numerous other examples (NO Saints are another glaring example--if he wants to stop crap like that, ban them for life...but I digress). If the player can generate interest for the league, Goodell likes to look the other way.

I'm sorry but Goodell has been doing to the league what Stern did to the NBA (who eventually turned the NBA into an unwatchable sport). You can look at the money the league makes but, again, that's in spite of Goodell, not because of him. The NFL would be successful anyway.

Protect the players, I'm totally fine with that. But stop ruining the game by making it no fun any longer.
Zero
Remember one very important thing about Goodel, he works for the owners. That's not a small point. The owners can fire him any time they want to and hire someone new. He's their representative and although he is the leader, he leads only with the consent of the owners.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Rick @ Jun 7 2012, 06:35 AM) *
The league has grown in spite of Goodell, not because of him. Don't get confused.

Let's not forget Goodell is behind turning the league into what it is today--a ghost of its former past. I don't disagree with trying to protect the players--I don't want to see these guys beaten to death the way they've been in the past--Goodell has been horrible about so many other things. Here's a list:

-He's behind the ridiculous rules against celebrating. You can work your butt off your whole life to make it to the NFL and score a touchdown but, if you do, don't celebrate. Yeah, that makes sense.
-He's behind the rules which make it impossible for the defense to cover receivers. This isn't a safety issue, this is a, "we want to drive up scoring," issue. Let them play defense!
-He was at the helm last year for the lockout/strike. Sorry, this was just plain stupid. While he can't make them settle (on either side), he can get them together and tell them to stop the childish crap. He never did that and allowed them to play money games with each other. He is, afterall, in charge of the league the last time I checked.
-He has been about as hypocritical as anyone every has been. On one hand, he is supposed to be tough on players when they break the rules, on the other hand, he looks the other way when players break the rules. Our QB is the biggest example of this but there have been numerous other examples (NO Saints are another glaring example--if he wants to stop crap like that, ban them for life...but I digress). If the player can generate interest for the league, Goodell likes to look the other way.

I'm sorry but Goodell has been doing to the league what Stern did to the NBA (who eventually turned the NBA into an unwatchable sport). You can look at the money the league makes but, again, that's in spite of Goodell, not because of him. The NFL would be successful anyway.

Protect the players, I'm totally fine with that. But stop ruining the game by making it no fun any longer.



ahhh...where to begin....

first, driving up the offense is what has made the league as popular as it is, like it or hate it that is simply the facts.
second, it was the rules committee that decided on the celebration rules and it was done to curb excessive celebrations, I agree it was/is a stupid rule but that is an example of a bad business leader? you must think a ceo is terrible if the toilet paper is too rough in the john.
Now the big thing......the lockout.....he got rid of that ridiculous draft pay scale where untested rookies got huge contracts while tested veterans sat by pissed off.....from a business standpoint he landed a very favorable CBA and they ended up losing no time on the season. From a fan standpoint I can understand your frustration from last year but froma practical standpoint and a business standpoint he has done an exceptional job
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jun 7 2012, 07:41 AM) *
From a fan standpoint I can understand your frustration from last year but froma practical standpoint and a business standpoint he has done an exceptional job


That's really my whole point, and why I can't stand Goodell. When I say this has been a 'disgraceful' era in football, I would point to many of the things Rick said. I love watching good defense, and watching Buddy's and JJ's defenses tear people apart was a special thing. Last year we had 3 QBs eclipse 5,000 passing yards, and Eli was 2 drives away from getting there too - that is an absolute disgrace - 10 QBs eclipsed 4,000 yards. The league has become little more than flag football. Now I agree with you that the league's skyrocketing popularity has moved in correlation to the inflation of offense, in fact that's obvious, but I think it's both unnecessary and insulting to real fans to manipulate the game in this manner. Yes, profits have increased, but the NFL has always been extremely popular and profitable, and would've always remained so without attracting every 14-year old dipshit on the planet who wants to see 55-41 games every Sunday - that's why we have college football and Madden.

I think it's a dangerous game, similar to what has happened to the NBA and what happened with MLB during the steroid era.

I disagree that he has 'guided' the NFL through scandals, that's like saying JFK 'guided' us through the Bay of Pigs, he has handled some things well and other things horribly - I think one being the threat of a lockout last year. But as to my main point, if I was a CEO, I would definitely hire him to run the day-to-day operations of my business. I just think he has put his thumb in the collective eye of true lifelong football fans, knowing full well that we'll always watch our teams no matter what he does, with few exceptions.
Jerome Brown Experience
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Jun 7 2012, 09:57 AM) *
That's really my whole point, and why I can't stand Goodell. When I say this has been a 'disgraceful' era in football, I would point to many of the things Rick said. I love watching good defense, and watching Buddy's and JJ's defenses tear people apart was a special thing. Last year we had 3 QBs eclipse 5,000 passing yards, and Eli was 2 drives away from getting there too - that is an absolute disgrace - 10 QBs eclipsed 4,000 yards. The league has become little more than flag football. Now I agree with you that the league's skyrocketing popularity has moved in correlation to the inflation of offense, in fact that's obvious, but I think it's both unnecessary and insulting to real fans to manipulate the game in this manner. Yes, profits have increased, but the NFL has always been extremely popular and profitable, and would've always remained so without attracting every 14-year old dipshit on the planet who wants to see 55-41 games every Sunday - that's why we have college football and Madden.

I think it's a dangerous game, similar to what has happened to the NBA and what happened with MLB during the steroid era.

I disagree that he has 'guided' the NFL through scandals, that's like saying JFK 'guided' us through the Bay of Pigs, he has handled some things well and other things horribly - I think one being the threat of a lockout last year. But as to my main point, if I was a CEO, I would definitely hire him to run the day-to-day operations of my business. I just think he has put his thumb in the collective eye of true lifelong football fans, knowing full well that we'll always watch our teams no matter what he does, with few exceptions.


I definitely hear your concerns regarding the change in the defensive rules but I am not sure that the rules themselves are as bad as all that. The major changes are:

- No jamming past 5 yards. I like this rule. You can break up a timing route pretty effectively by jamming in those first 5 yards and after 5 yards it isn't about strength it is about speed. The Patriot teams mugging of receivers was to football what the neutral zone trap was to hockey, it was boring but effective and didn't highlight the athleticism of the defender or the receiver.

- More scrutiny on late hits on QBs. This is a tricky one. I agree that QBs need to be protected and I also agree that good players can get good licks in on QBs. However, the refs seem to apply this rule unevenly which has turned it into a bit of a sham. There needs to be more clarity on this one. Which brings me to......

- Pass Interference changes. There is a lot of good in the "no leading with the helmet" change and the "No horse collar tackles" change. Keeping receivers safe (and also the defenders who lead with their helmets) is a priority. HOWEVER:

- PI is still a spot of foul call when it should be a 10 yard (maybe 15 for blatant or longer receptions) penalty
- The refs are VERY uneven in how they call PI. There has to be clear guidelines published for PI. I am even open to adding another ref deep in the secondary to provide a second angle on many deeper balls

I don't know that any of his rule changes on D have been bad, but I think a case can be made that they have not been executed as well as they might. He has to take some responsibility for that, but I am not sure that this is the sh*tshow some are describing.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (Jerome Brown Experience @ Jun 7 2012, 11:13 AM) *
I don't know that any of his rule changes on D have been bad, but I think a case can be made that they have not been executed as well as they might. He has to take some responsibility for that, but I am not sure that this is the sh*tshow some are describing.


Well we can nitpick and discuss each defensive rule change all day long, but the results are obvious and you have to acknowledge that - 3 guys over 5,000 yards? 4 out of the top 6 single season passing yard totals in NFL history happened last year? This is flag football with some occasional contact. Great for ratings, great for money, great for 14-year olds who play Madden all day and always go for it on 4th down.....bad for the real fans of the game.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Jun 7 2012, 09:57 AM) *
I think it's a dangerous game, similar to what has happened to the NBA and what happened with MLB during the steroid era.

I disagree that he has 'guided' the NFL through scandals, that's like saying JFK 'guided' us through the Bay of Pigs, he has handled some things well and other things horribly - I think one being the threat of a lockout last year. But as to my main point, if I was a CEO, I would definitely hire him to run the day-to-day operations of my business. I just think he has put his thumb in the collective eye of true lifelong football fans, knowing full well that we'll always watch our teams no matter what he does, with few exceptions.


But the NFL is nothing like the NBA, you still have teams that excel at defense and teams that play great offense and fundamentals still win which can't be said of the mess that is the NBA. There is more offense now but if you think Goodell is responsible for that I suggest you check your facts....he has had the job since 2006 not 1996. As far as your analogy I scratched my head....are you saying Goodell created his own scandals? JFK may not have started the planning of Pluto but he certainly approved it after being elected and he green lighted it after he took office.....Goodell has not really ahd a scandal of his own making.....the injury suit isn't a scandal as much as it is a money grab by trial lawyers.

just for shits and giggles I went back and looked at the league average from 1972 for points per game per team....20.3, last year...22.2.....2 points? I will have to look at that, did the change rules back then to make the offense unstoppable?
koolaidluke
the same people who attack Gooddell defend Spadoucho.

I don't particularly like Gooddell but I feel he does a good job.


I don't understand why the NFL is so against making their refs full timers. I'd like to see them add two refs to the game day crews and make everybody full time. The games still aren't called consistantly enough for my tastes.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jun 7 2012, 06:32 PM) *
Goodell has not really ahd a scandal of his own making.....the injury suit isn't a scandal as much as it is a money grab by trial lawyers.

just for shits and giggles I went back and looked at the league average from 1972 for points per game per team....20.3, last year...22.2.....2 points? I will have to look at that, did the change rules back then to make the offense unstoppable?


I was just saying JFK gets credit for 'leadership' when he doesn't deserve it, as does Goodell. The injury suits will get bigger and worse, yeah of course lawyers are licking their chops and they smell blood, but I actually think Goodell's words and actions (unwittingly of course) have given these bloodsuckers what they need to get these suits going. Ironically, implementing rules and putting together committees to make players 'safer' would seem to me easy to manipulate into 'they knew it was bad, and didn't do anything about it until now' or whatever horseshit they can come up with, for the players who came before his era. Remember, some dumb bitch spilled coffee on her lap and became a millionaire, and now every cup in every store and fast food joint in the country says 'caution: beverage is hot.' Over 2,000 players have now filed suit, this could get bad.

I don't really care what average points are as opposed to what they were in 1972. There are still enough shitty teams to bring down that average, and yes there are solid defenses who play well, or at least can stop teams at the goal line and keep the point total down. Earlier in this thread you acknowledged the rise in offense tied to Goodell's tenure, and the stats I posted don't lie, so there's no point in arguing this, the league has become flag football.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Jun 8 2012, 10:26 AM) *
I was just saying JFK gets credit for 'leadership' when he doesn't deserve it, as does Goodell. The injury suits will get bigger and worse, yeah of course lawyers are licking their chops and they smell blood, but I actually think Goodell's words and actions (unwittingly of course) have given these bloodsuckers what they need to get these suits going. Ironically, implementing rules and putting together committees to make players 'safer' would seem to me easy to manipulate into 'they knew it was bad, and didn't do anything about it until now' or whatever horseshit they can come up with, for the players who came before his era. Remember, some dumb bitch spilled coffee on her lap and became a millionaire, and now every cup in every store and fast food joint in the country says 'caution: beverage is hot.' Over 2,000 players have now filed suit, this could get bad.

I don't really care what average points are as opposed to what they were in 1972. There are still enough shitty teams to bring down that average, and yes there are solid defenses who play well, or at least can stop teams at the goal line and keep the point total down. Earlier in this thread you acknowledged the rise in offense tied to Goodell's tenure, and the stats I posted don't lie, so there's no point in arguing this, the league has become flag football.


I am curious though.....you don't like Goodell for changing the rules to make it safer for players and hence improving the offensive numbers but he is complicit in knowing there was a danger to players and doing nothing? Maybe I am misunderstanding you.

The suit will go nowhere......lot of bluster and a lot of media hype but in the end the settlement will be more symbolic than substantial.

I was surprised by the total points myself....it bears some examination, more years etc because 72 might just have been a freak year. That being said, there have always been good and bad teams in the league....now there are just greater numbers of both.....I think the NFL, not just Goodell has altered the rules such that the passing game has supplanted the running game for most teams and that is why there is a proliferation of big passing yardage. The free agent market for RBs is bearing that out for the most part. It would take an in depth look at the numbers over the years and I am getting ready for a golf trip...I may take a look when I get back.....

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