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D Rock
per PFT via TMZ.

Apparently he shot himself.
mcnabbulous
The NFL is fucked.
D Rock
Makes the 09 incident in which he drove his escalade over a cliff after having "fallen asleep" look a bit different. I know the spot in Carlsbad where he went over and fell to the beach. He was lucky to have survived that and they said at the time that "no skid marks" on the HWY leading up to where he went over support his claim that he fell asleep.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (D Rock @ May 2 2012, 02:00 PM) *
Makes the 09 incident in which he drove his escalade over a cliff after having "fallen asleep" look a bit different. I know the spot in Carlsbad where he went over and fell to the beach. He was lucky to have survived that and they said at the time that "no skid marks" on the HWY leading up to where he went over support his claim that he fell asleep.


Had forgotten about that until reading some articles. Ashame he didn't get the help he needed then.
TGryn
Confirmed on chargers.com
bwc2112
I had just posted a condolence from us wingheads stating him to rest in peace. He was a great player on the field. He will be missed.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ May 2 2012, 02:55 PM) *
The NFL is fucked.


All it takes is one ruling to establish precedent, then it's over - the league is already under fire by politicians demanding investigations into this sort of thing, and when you have possibly thousands of broke morons in their 40s and 50s suing you because they woke up with a headache the league could eventually fold. I don't think it's that farfetched a scenario.
Jerome Brown Experience
I don't understand why the league doesn't mandate the use of "The Kelso cap" - the foam-like cover that Mark Kelso (and others) used.

It absorbs a ton of the blow and it eliminates the helmet's effectiveness as a weapon. My kid is a 10 year old football player who plays on the lines and if he plays in the next level up (weight limit 160) I will make him wear a Kelso cap. Beats the alternatives.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ May 3 2012, 03:54 PM) *
All it takes is one ruling to establish precedent, then it's over - the league is already under fire by politicians demanding investigations into this sort of thing, and when you have possibly thousands of broke morons in their 40s and 50s suing you because they woke up with a headache the league could eventually fold. I don't think it's that farfetched a scenario.


I think Florio has poisoned the mind of fans everywhere........these suits will go nowhere.........it is a violent game and every player knows AND knew the risks of contact. While brain injuries are tragic they are no different than arthritic knees, hips etc...the former players are trying to get the NFL to establish a fund to pay to these guys but the NFL will simply point to the players currently playing the game and say they all had there choice to play and that the league can no more prevent a concussion than they can prevent a compound fracture......it is a violent game....if you want to make sure you don't get a concussion go get another job. To further their defense they will point to the steps they have taken.......you will see some fund started that will pay for help to the broke players....not much else....
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ May 3 2012, 07:28 PM) *
I think Florio has poisoned the mind of fans everywhere........these suits will go nowhere.........it is a violent game and every player knows AND knew the risks of contact. While brain injuries are tragic they are no different than arthritic knees, hips etc...the former players are trying to get the NFL to establish a fund to pay to these guys but the NFL will simply point to the players currently playing the game and say they all had there choice to play and that the league can no more prevent a concussion than they can prevent a compound fracture......it is a violent game....if you want to make sure you don't get a concussion go get another job. To further their defense they will point to the steps they have taken.......you will see some fund started that will pay for help to the broke players....not much else....


I hope you're right, but you're thinking logically. Lawyers, politicians, and many judges don't think that way - this is why some dumb old bitch can spill coffee on her lap and McDonald's has to pay her $2 million. Like I said, all it takes is ONE judge to rule against the NFL, then the floodgates open. Hopefully that doesn't happen.
SLOiggles
It's a mixed bag of emotions for me when someone takes their own life. I feel both pity and apathy for one when someone gets to the point where no one else outside of themselves matters. I've felt depressed, and at one point was reasonably close to the mindset of what only I wanted, but no matter how bad things got, I always maintained hope that tomorrow would bring something, ANYTHING, better than what I currently had. Obviously circumstances differ for each and every person, but clearly there was some semblance of rational thought for others when you text your children "I love you" before you shoot yourself. If you loved them...why create an almost impossible to remove emotional scar like that?

Tim Brown today made a great point that people should not instantly lump player related head injuries with severe depression and suicidal tendencies. And in regards to the concussion lawsuits that seem to be the new fad among former and some current NFL players, my question is: What did you expect when you played a contact sport like football for, in most cases, a minimum of six years of your life and in most cases over 10 years? There has to be common sense amongst people to realize that if you don't want the ramifications, then don't put yourself in the position to be injured. Regardless of the upgrade in technology and protective equipment, injuries are going to happen given the nature of the beast. When you're under a pile of five to ten 270 lb men, you're at a risk of injury. I don't care what kind of helmet you wear, you're still in danger. The added aspect is pride. How many of these tough guys want to be perceived amongst their peers as a pussy? Oh, he wears thigh pads? Didn't know tampons extended down that far. It's commonplace with athletes in these sports to have the survival of the fittest mentality. It's a shame too. I'd rather be a safe coward than a dead "hero"...especially when at the end of the day, it's a game.

Fortunately or unfortunately, this thread was made in regards to Seau, and I don't want to vent about the absurdity of these lawsuits. At the end of the day, it's sad news for NFL fans and people in general. In the sad case of Seau and Dave Duerson...it seems that once the game ended, much of their life did as well. Hopefully his extended family can cope with their loss.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (SLOiggles @ May 3 2012, 11:03 PM) *
Fortunately or unfortunately, this thread was made in regards to Seau, and I don't want to vent about the absurdity of these lawsuits.


The two cannot be separated. Seau's death is a shame I always liked him, but there's a LOT of people out there just waiting for stories like this so they can advance their agenda.

As far as the long list of players who are/will sue the NFL later in life, it's also about the fact that many of these people are, let's face it: morons with millions. They buy solid gold toilets and ferraris, and at age 35 they retire being used to spending $5 million a year, yet have no ability to earn any sort of income. Allen Iverson made $200 million as an NBA player - there's a reason he's still playing in the Bush league, it's so he doesn't starve.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ May 3 2012, 06:28 PM) *
it is a violent game and every player knows AND knew the risks of contact. While brain injuries are tragic they are no different than arthritic knees, hips etc...


You've said a lot of stuff I've disagreed with over the years, but this is just plain ridiculous.

I am yet to hear of one guy shooting himself in the chest because his knees are fucked up.
SLOiggles
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ May 4 2012, 06:07 PM) *
You've said a lot of stuff I've disagreed with over the years, but this is just plain ridiculous.

I am yet to hear of one guy shooting himself in the chest because his knees are fucked up.


That may be the case, but whats to stop players from suing the NFL for such injuries? I think that the ruling from this case could open pandoras box regarding on the job injuries sustained during a playing career. While I wouldnt expect one to believe concussions and brain injuries have the same detrimental effects as torn cartilage in a knee, both can create long lasting negative effects long after a playing career is over. The NFL certainly is responding as of late, but much of their behavior is REACTIVE rather than PROACTIVE. Its a shame too because no one, former/current players and fans alike, want to bury the sport...but this certainly has the potential to cause major changes to the game.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (SLOiggles @ May 5 2012, 06:01 PM) *
That may be the case, but whats to stop players from suing the NFL for such injuries? I think that the ruling from this case could open pandoras box regarding on the job injuries sustained during a playing career. While I wouldnt expect one to believe concussions and brain injuries have the same detrimental effects as torn cartilage in a knee, both can create long lasting negative effects long after a playing career is over. The NFL certainly is responding as of late, but much of their behavior is REACTIVE rather than PROACTIVE. Its a shame too because no one, former/current players and fans alike, want to bury the sport...but this certainly has the potential to cause major changes to the game.

The big difference is the obvious nature of the injuries. When a guy can't walk because his knees are fucked, everyone can tell (see: Earl Campbell.) The NFL would never pretend there isn't a direct correlation.

When a guy is suffering emotionally due to repeated blows to the head, it is much harder to relate to. Goodell stating that there was no correlation between the NFL and those injuries is what leaves the bad taste in my mouth. They should have and could have addressed this years ago. Getting these guys the help they need should have been the first priority.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ May 4 2012, 09:07 PM) *
You've said a lot of stuff I've disagreed with over the years, but this is just plain ridiculous.

I am yet to hear of one guy shooting himself in the chest because his knees are fucked up.



you miss the point.......what will be next? Will players get together and sue the NFL because the playing surfaces were conducive to torn ACLs and hip pointers? The NFL knew these injuries would lead to impaired mobility later in life....yada yada yada...There are a whole lot issues that former players could complain about and there have been several players who offed themselves because the pain they were in from their injuries.....the difference is that the focus was not on them unless it fit a story...i.e. steriod abuse etc....

and now Seau kills himself so it must be because of concussions? How about he was depressed from no more NFL and a laundry list of business failures and a bad personal life and did not know how to deal with it? Suicide is a tragedy but there are many causes and depression is top of the list......many former athletes have a hard time overcoming that......quite a few baseball players have taken the same route and there aren't too many concussions in baseball....

I am not arguing that a) concussions are a major problem in the NFL cool.gif something needs to be done to help former players and c) the nfl should continue to improve player safety.

But there is a personal responsibility that needs to be pointed out.

HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE
Will players get together and sue the NFL because the playing surfaces were conducive to torn ACLs and hip pointers?


If they think it has a chance in hell of making them money, and they can put a doctor in a courtroom to prove this, you better believe it'll eventually happen.....

QUOTE
But there is a personal responsibility that needs to be pointed out


Welcome to America 2012, personal responsibility is so.....1960. I agree with everything you said in principle and in theory, but unfortunately that's not the world we live in anymore. There are legions of scumbag lawyers who lick their chops everytime something like this happens, and rest assured there are people who seek the endgame of banning football altogether - a few prominent people have already called for banning college football, as well as calling for Congressional investigations into NFL concussions, which can only lead to one thing, actual Federal regulation of football violence. Also, the wave of self-righteous sportswriters guilt tripping us into thinking we're a Roman mob at a gladiator contest has begun years ago. This is a snowball rolling downhill.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ May 8 2012, 10:40 AM) *
you miss the point.......what will be next? Will players get together and sue the NFL because the playing surfaces were conducive to torn ACLs and hip pointers? The NFL knew these injuries would lead to impaired mobility later in life....yada yada yada...There are a whole lot issues that former players could complain about and there have been several players who offed themselves because the pain they were in from their injuries.....the difference is that the focus was not on them unless it fit a story...i.e. steriod abuse etc....

and now Seau kills himself so it must be because of concussions? How about he was depressed from no more NFL and a laundry list of business failures and a bad personal life and did not know how to deal with it? Suicide is a tragedy but there are many causes and depression is top of the list......many former athletes have a hard time overcoming that......quite a few baseball players have taken the same route and there aren't too many concussions in baseball....

I am not arguing that a) concussions are a major problem in the NFL cool.gif something needs to be done to help former players and c) the nfl should continue to improve player safety.


But there is a personal responsibility that needs to be pointed out.

I missed no point. Decreased mobility is sad and unfortunate. Brain injuries are tragic. If the NFL knowingly lied about those other things, than they should be held accountable. Fortunately, those injuries aren't leading to the end result we are seeing because of brain injuries.


Lou Gherig likely developed ALS type symptoms not from the disease that carries his name, but rather the multiple concussions he glamorously played through during his ironman streak.


It's no coincidence that NFL players are statistically far more susceptible to that disease than normal citizens.


Denying that Seau's depression was inevitably brought on my his playing career is naive at best.
Rick
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ May 9 2012, 10:21 PM) *
I missed no point. Decreased mobility is sad and unfortunate. Brain injuries are tragic. If the NFL knowingly lied about those other things, than they should be held accountable. Fortunately, those injuries aren't leading to the end result we are seeing because of brain injuries.


Lou Gherig likely developed ALS type symptoms not from the disease that carries his name, but rather the multiple concussions he glamorously played through during his ironman streak.


It's no coincidence that NFL players are statistically far more susceptible to that disease than normal citizens.


Denying that Seau's depression was inevitably brought on my his playing career is naive at best.

Yup. How many other players have experienced the same depression and then killed themselves. Autopsy showed they had some serious brain problems likely caused by the repeated collisions these guys have throughout their careers.

The mentality of, "they knew the risks, they could have chosen a different career," is just plain stupid. This is what's said by people who actually have the ability to have other careers. Most of these kids who make it into the NFL would NEVER be able to go to college and do something other than digging ditches.

Let's also put it another way. If you worked in an office and a bunch of employees all got the same form of cancer there would be an uproar. If it was then determined that cancer was caused by something in the workplace and the company KNEW about it but covered it up and did nothing to remove that something, you'd see a bunch of lawsuits. Why do we look at professional sports any differently? Because they make more money? They deserve the same protection from workplace injuries/illnesses as anyone else does. Are they more likely to get hurt than someone working in an office? Of course. However, it doesn't mean they should ignore what's happening. They should do everything they can to make it as safe an environment as possible.

I have two boys, I just hope they never express an interest in playing football. I live in FL now and football is HUGE down here. I constantly get asked about whether my boys are playing football. I don't want my kids to wind up with major injuries at a young age--a VERY likely possibility when playing a sport like football. Luckily, my boys have a choice in what they want to be when they grow up, unlike so many NFL players....
BirdsWinBaby
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ May 9 2012, 09:21 PM) *
Denying that Seau's depression was inevitably brought on my his playing career is naive at best.


cant confirm or deny this to be honest

there have been many cases of PEOPLE (not just football players) who mask things like depression and a whole host of other psychological problems with the rush and fame of a pro playing career. T.O. is a great example of this

could he not have always suffered self worth problems, became a 'somebody' as a high profile player and couldnt stand the thought of life as a 'nobody' again?

yea he could have had perfect mental health and had his brain scrambled by football and developed depression issues. with no evidence you cant say now
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Rick @ May 10 2012, 07:32 AM) *
The mentality of, "they knew the risks, they could have chosen a different career," is just plain stupid. This is what's said by people who actually have the ability to have other careers. Most of these kids who make it into the NFL would NEVER be able to go to college and do something other than digging ditches.

Let's also put it another way. If you worked in an office and a bunch of employees all got the same form of cancer there would be an uproar. If it was then determined that cancer was caused by something in the workplace and the company KNEW about it but covered it up and did nothing to remove that something, you'd see a bunch of lawsuits. Why do we look at professional sports any differently? Because they make more money? They deserve the same protection from workplace injuries/illnesses as anyone else does. Are they more likely to get hurt than someone working in an office? Of course. However, it doesn't mean they should ignore what's happening. They should do everything they can to make it as safe an environment as possible.

I have two boys, I just hope they never express an interest in playing football. I live in FL now and football is HUGE down


stunning.....you mock common sense and defend it with something so ridiculously out of place it is beyond idiocy.

Just so I get this right......you believe that the NFL knew that collisions can cause concussions and said concussions could cause problems later in life and the players didn't and the NFL covered it up? and you think the idea of personal responsibility is stupid? no surprise.....

Let me clue you in on something...you apparently are of the mind that these players are dumb jocks....and while some are many are extremely bright.......and it doesn't take a genius to realize concussions are brain trauma and multiple concussions may have long term effects(it said so on the sheet the hospital gave me when I had my first one at age 13) The players have always known the physical ramifications of the sport and the risks they take with their life in retirement (it was the reason a guy like Robert Smith got out when he did) but they weigh the risks with the reward and the reason they take that risk is the money is more than they can make doing anything else. The money is that high to pay for the risk.

Your argument is one of a nefarious sort where there is actually criminal behavior on the part of the NFL. What do you want the NFL to do? get rid of blocking and tackling? There have been millions spent on research in football, hockey etc to perfect helmets and mouthpieces and collars to eradicate trauma but so far there is no perfect answer.

unreal..........always someone else's fault........HOP got it right
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (BirdsWinBaby @ May 10 2012, 09:26 AM) *
cant confirm or deny this to be honest

there have been many cases of PEOPLE (not just football players) who mask things like depression and a whole host of other psychological problems with the rush and fame of a pro playing career. T.O. is a great example of this

could he not have always suffered self worth problems, became a 'somebody' as a high profile player and couldnt stand the thought of life as a 'nobody' again?

yea he could have had perfect mental health and had his brain scrambled by football and developed depression issues. with no evidence you cant say now
He was the most popular ex-athlete in San Diego. Soon to be hall of famer. Hardly a nobody.
It's very easy to hypothesize what caused his issues based on the significantly higher % of ex football players experiencing similar fates.


Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ May 10 2012, 05:28 PM) *
He was the most popular ex-athlete in San Diego. Soon to be hall of famer. Hardly a nobody.
It's very easy to hypothesize what caused his issues based on the significantly higher % of ex football players experiencing similar fates.


unfortunately depression is hardly solely caused by numerous concussions, it is just an easy scapegoat.......could it have happened? possibly but other maladies are much more common from repeated concussions, Art Monk lists many in his jump on the band wagon....

It is simply ridiculous....I guess the next step is to end all contact sports period........that is the only solution...the entire case is amazing, to be honest. I admit many trainers and old school coaches certainly pressured players to shake off concussions because their thought was that if you could walk you could play but that hardly was a complicit act on the part of the NFL.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ May 10 2012, 04:59 PM) *
unfortunately depression is hardly solely caused by numerous concussions, it is just an easy scapegoat.......could it have happened? possibly but other maladies are much more common from repeated concussions, Art Monk lists many in his jump on the band wagon....

It is simply ridiculous....I guess the next step is to end all contact sports period........that is the only solution...the entire case is amazing, to be honest. I admit many trainers and old school coaches certainly pressured players to shake off concussions because their thought was that if you could walk you could play but that hardly was a complicit act on the part of the NFL.


Yeah...just a coincidence. I have no doubt that some people have non injury related depression, but the brain injury element to playing NFL football is very real. And it does exist elsewhere.


QUOTE
ALS has been reported in a number of sports, according to the BU report:

  • professional soccer players are 6.5 times as likely to suffer from ALS than the general public
  • retired NFL players are eight times as likely to suffer from ALS than the male population
  • military veterans (with head injuries) are 2.3 times as likely to suffer from ALS than the general public

HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE
The mentality of, "they knew the risks, they could have chosen a different career," is just plain stupid. This is what's said by people who actually have the ability to have other careers. Most of these kids who make it into the NFL would NEVER be able to go to college and do something other than digging ditches.


I find your post disturbing - again, I'm sure you have good intentions, but this is exactly the kind of attitude that will allow people to further and further pussify the sport, and end up banning it altogether. These aren't retarded little monkeys who have to choose between sitting on an organ grinder's shoulder and sitting in a zoo cage - these are competent people who have the ability to play at the highest level of football - something just about any of us would dream of. I find this statement insulting and condescending, indicative of the nanny state mentality that has hurt the game. These guys can do whatever they want in life - they choose to play football.

QUOTE
Let's also put it another way. If you worked in an office and a bunch of employees all got the same form of cancer there would be an uproar. If it was then determined that cancer was caused by something in the workplace and the company KNEW about it but covered it up and did nothing to remove that something, you'd see a bunch of lawsuits. Why do we look at professional sports any differently? Because they make more money?


If me and 10 of my co-workers got the same form of cancer, yeah we'd be outraged and we would sue - because when we were hired, our job description didn't involve the POSSIBILITY OF GETTING CANCER FROM WORKING. When you sign up for the NFL, your job is to hit and get hit, once a week, 20-30-40 times a game. You likely will get injured at some point in your career more than once. They still sign up to do it.
mcnabbulous
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ May 10 2012, 07:37 PM) *
If me and 10 of my co-workers got the same form of cancer, yeah we'd be outraged and we would sue - because when we were hired, our job description didn't involve the POSSIBILITY OF GETTING CANCER FROM WORKING. When you sign up for the NFL, your job is to hit and get hit, once a week, 20-30-40 times a game. You likely will get injured at some point in your career more than once. They still sign up to do it.


If brain injuries were such an obvious side effect of an NFL career, why did Goodell try so hard to deny the correlation?
Many guys have said that they wouldn't have chosen that path, knowing their fate.
SLOiggles
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ May 10 2012, 06:01 PM) *
If brain injuries were such an obvious side effect of an NFL career, why did Goodell try so hard to deny the correlation?
Many guys have said that they wouldn't have chosen that path, knowing their fate.


No employer is going to laundry list the negative ramifications of the job, particularly as many problems as in the NFL. Concussions, torn ligaments, broken bones, long and short term consequences health wise are all what face these guys...but NOT JUST IN THE NFL. Concussions happen all the time in high school and college. Its common knowledge and to say or imply otherwise is absurd. Players know these risks. Anyone who has ever watched ONE football game has witnessed an injury.

With regards to concussions, it's scientific fact that you are more susceptable to concussions once youve had your first. The problem is, when have many of these kids had their first? My brother got a concussion covering kick offs in high school and when he complained about being dizzy his coach called him a motherfucking pussy. And this is at a piss poor high school in the central valley of California. Imagine in Omaha or Dallas or Chicago. The NFL needs to lead the way and create a trickle down effect in creating responsibility and safety, but they're not the sole scapegoat for all the aches and pains in these players' lives.
mcnabbulous
This isn't about aches and pains. I've never once even heard that argument. This is about serious brain injuries at a significantly higher rate than the general public.

Resulting in an increasing number of seriously ill men willing to take their own lives to put an end to the illness.

No one wants the NFL to go away, but their inaction when this first started coming to light (and long time pathetic treatment of ex players) is what caused this mess.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ May 10 2012, 09:01 PM) *
If brain injuries were such an obvious side effect of an NFL career, why did Goodell try so hard to deny the correlation?
Many guys have said that they wouldn't have chosen that path, knowing their fate.



what is bizarre to all this is that football isn't even the top sport for concussions....that would be cycling and motorsports , and boxing is ultimate fighting are right up there ahead of football but I am sure those sports also have found a way to hoodwink their performers also.

Look, I get the compassion for these guys and I get the tragic shape some of these guys get into. But the large majority of the guys who are signing to the lawsuit show no signs of brain damage. Aikman has been out of the game beyond the magical 15 years and he is as sharp as a tack.....a fact even Leigh "I am the champion of concussion reform" has had to admit because Aikman has had asm amny concussions as anyone. They need to continue to improve the rules regarding players returning to action after a concussion but common sense needs to be taken into account here. Right now it is hysteria of the moment and band wagon lawsuits.

What would be funny would be the NFL ending its existence to prevent further concussions, go out of business and leave all those players safe, unemployed and broke. Then the lawsuits would really start with players suing to play........you know....the game that is so bad for them.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ May 10 2012, 11:33 PM) *
This isn't about aches and pains. I've never once even heard that argument. This is about serious brain injuries at a significantly higher rate than the general public.

Resulting in an increasing number of seriously ill men willing to take their own lives to put an end to the illness.

No one wants the NFL to go away, but their inaction when this first started coming to light (and long time pathetic treatment of ex players) is what caused this mess.


Do you even have an idea of how many suicides there have been of former NFL players in the last 20 years? There have been just over 20 football players in the last 50 years to kill themselves........that is out of the many thousands to have played the game. Dentist have a higher suicide rate than NFL players. The reality is that the NFL is now a year round newsmaker and there is no offseason so this stuff is hot. By the way.....the NFLPA is just as complicit in this, at the first big concussion conference back in 2007 for concussions in the NFL and long term effects they sent no one.....at least the NFL sent one guy.(and yes, that is also pathetic)

Now regarding concussions or brain injuries occurring at a greater rate than the general public, you are absolutely correct but you can say the same about a lot of occupations........lumberjacks lose more fingers....... tongue.gif

it is a tragedy but it has gone a little past overboard
Rick
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ May 10 2012, 11:53 PM) *
stunning.....you mock common sense and defend it with something so ridiculously out of place it is beyond idiocy.

Just so I get this right......you believe that the NFL knew that collisions can cause concussions and said concussions could cause problems later in life and the players didn't and the NFL covered it up? and you think the idea of personal responsibility is stupid? no surprise.....

Just so you have it right...I didn't say I believe the NFL hid anything. What I said was, if they knew about these things--and hid them from players and did nothing to help--this is no different than any other company hiding potential dangers from their workers. Because these workers are highly-paid has no bearing on this.

QUOTE (Reality Fan @ May 10 2012, 11:53 PM) *
Let me clue you in on something...you apparently are of the mind that these players are dumb jocks....and while some are many are extremely bright.......and it doesn't take a genius to realize concussions are brain trauma and multiple concussions may have long term effects(it said so on the sheet the hospital gave me when I had my first one at age 13) The players have always known the physical ramifications of the sport and the risks they take with their life in retirement (it was the reason a guy like Robert Smith got out when he did) but they weigh the risks with the reward and the reason they take that risk is the money is more than they can make doing anything else. The money is that high to pay for the risk.

I never said--nor implied--they are, "dumb jocks," those are YOUR words not mine.

We all know it's inherently more dangerous to work in a coal mine than in an office yet people go to work in coal mines--intelligent people. Oh, and, there are many laws in place to protect these people who KNOW they're going into harm's way. Again, why shouldn't athletes be afforded reasonable protection? Again, not saying the NFL did (or did not) do anything wrong. I, honestly, don't know. But, if it's determined they did do something wrong, they they should face the same consequences as any other business who does something like that wrong.

QUOTE (Reality Fan @ May 10 2012, 11:53 PM) *
Your argument is one of a nefarious sort where there is actually criminal behavior on the part of the NFL. What do you want the NFL to do? get rid of blocking and tackling? There have been millions spent on research in football, hockey etc to perfect helmets and mouthpieces and collars to eradicate trauma but so far there is no perfect answer.

unreal..........always someone else's fault........HOP got it right

Again, YOUR words, not mine. I never said the NFL did anything wrong. If they're not doing their part, then they should face the consequences.

You, OTOH, seem to be the typical person who feels that, because the players make a lot more money than most of us, the same rules shouldn't apply to their employer--the NFL and the team they play for. That, to me, is more ridiculous than if someone wants to blame someone else. You jump to the conclusion that I feel that way when I most certainly do not.
Rick
QUOTE (BirdsWinBaby @ May 10 2012, 10:26 AM) *
cant confirm or deny this to be honest

there have been many cases of PEOPLE (not just football players) who mask things like depression and a whole host of other psychological problems with the rush and fame of a pro playing career. T.O. is a great example of this

could he not have always suffered self worth problems, became a 'somebody' as a high profile player and couldnt stand the thought of life as a 'nobody' again?

yea he could have had perfect mental health and had his brain scrambled by football and developed depression issues. with no evidence you cant say now

I supposed you were one of the people who believed smoking didn't cause lung cancer and the other bad diseases it causes because it hasn't been, "proven."
Rick
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ May 10 2012, 11:39 PM) *
what is bizarre to all this is that football isn't even the top sport for concussions....that would be cycling and motorsports , and boxing is ultimate fighting are right up there ahead of football but I am sure those sports also have found a way to hoodwink their performers also.

You might want to check your facts. Boxing and cage fighting are NOT ranked higher than football and isn't even ranked near the top for concussions.

In fact, for high school sports, football is absolutely at the top of the concussion list:
http://www.momsteam.com/health-safety/conc...h-school-sports

I cannot find stats on the other sports--other than football. So I can't say what the top sport is but, having been involved in MMA for a number of years--I can tell you that is most definitely NOT near the top as a sport.

I can also not find ANY info on concussions in racing. Not saying it doesn't happen as I'm not a racing fan but I know I've never heard of this being a major issue. But, that means nothing, as I said, I don't follow racing in any form.

I will say, however, there is info on concussions for football players all over the place. That leads me to believe two things...1) it's a hot topic and 2) it's obviously a sport which has a HIGH number of concussions...higher than other sports.
Rick
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ May 10 2012, 11:53 PM) *
Now regarding concussions or brain injuries occurring at a greater rate than the general public, you are absolutely correct but you can say the same about a lot of occupations........lumberjacks lose more fingers....... tongue.gif

And there are laws/regulations in place to do what they can do to protect them in a dangerous job. Why should it be any different in the NFL?
Rick
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ May 10 2012, 08:37 PM) *
If me and 10 of my co-workers got the same form of cancer, yeah we'd be outraged and we would sue - because when we were hired, our job description didn't involve the POSSIBILITY OF GETTING CANCER FROM WORKING. When you sign up for the NFL, your job is to hit and get hit, once a week, 20-30-40 times a game. You likely will get injured at some point in your career more than once. They still sign up to do it.

Ok, if you're a coal miner you know there are more risks, yet, there are laws/regulations to protect these people as best they can. Why should the NFL be any different??
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Rick @ May 11 2012, 07:39 AM) *
Just so you have it right...I didn't say I believe the NFL hid anything. What I said was, if they knew about these things--and hid them from players and did nothing to help--this is no different than any other company hiding potential dangers from their workers. Because these workers are highly-paid has no bearing on this.


I never said--nor implied--they are, "dumb jocks," those are YOUR words not mine.

We all know it's inherently more dangerous to work in a coal mine than in an office yet people go to work in coal mines--intelligent people. Oh, and, there are many laws in place to protect these people who KNOW they're going into harm's way. Again, why shouldn't athletes be afforded reasonable protection? Again, not saying the NFL did (or did not) do anything wrong. I, honestly, don't know. But, if it's determined they did do something wrong, they they should face the same consequences as any other business who does something like that wrong.


Again, YOUR words, not mine. I never said the NFL did anything wrong. If they're not doing their part, then they should face the consequences.

You, OTOH, seem to be the typical person who feels that, because the players make a lot more money than most of us, the same rules shouldn't apply to their employer--the NFL and the team they play for. That, to me, is more ridiculous than if someone wants to blame someone else. You jump to the conclusion that I feel that way when I most certainly do not.


ok, let me get this right.....you don't say it but you use an example that is purely criminal as a correlation but you din't mean to infer that the NFL did anything wrong?......wow..

and I am the last person to begrudge anyone making money....the point you missed was that the money they make is the trade off........you, on the other hand, make it seem as if they are lemmings led to slaughter. The coal mine example is another misdirection or just a bad idea on your part because coal miners face a completely different socio-economic dilemma......in most cases they don't have other options........more later...late for a meeting.
Rick
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ May 11 2012, 10:35 AM) *
ok, let me get this right.....you don't say it but you use an example that is purely criminal as a correlation but you din't mean to infer that the NFL did anything wrong?......wow..

and I am the last person to begrudge anyone making money....the point you missed was that the money they make is the trade off........you, on the other hand, make it seem as if they are lemmings led to slaughter. The coal mine example is another misdirection or just a bad idea on your part because coal miners face a completely different socio-economic dilemma......in most cases they don't have other options........more later...late for a meeting.

Again, you're putting words into my mouth which were never used nor implied. You seem to have a problem with the fact that these guys make a lot of money. What they make has NO BEARING on whether they should (or shouldn't) be afforded the same protections as a coal miner (remember, coal miners make quite a bit more money than others where they live because of the risk involved in their occupation). There was no misdirection. It's two jobs which carry more risk than an office job. One has a lot of protection, the other doesn't.

I guess what I'm saying is too complex for you to fathom. Let me make it clear (again) so you won't miss it this time. Ready? Pay attention now...

I have never said--nor inferred--the NFL did anything wrong. All I've said is, if they did do something wrong, they they should be made to take care of the situation like ANY other business who does something similar. If they did nothing wrong, then they shouldn't have to do anything to rectify the situation.

Let's take a moment, maybe you should go back and read that last statement again to ensure you FINALLY know what I'm saying.

Not sure why that's so hard for you to understand. I have no idea whether the NFL did anything wrong just as you have no idea if they didn't do anything wrong. You keep saying I'm trying to say they've done something wrong. You couldn't be more WRONG on this point you keep hammering home. You use this as a misdirection to keep from answering the question I've been asking--why shouldn't NFL players be afforded the same level of protection other professions provide (if they aren't currently)? Oh wait, you did answer that. You feel they're a bunch of whining rich people and don't deserve to be protected. Or did I miss something?

Do you understand now or do I need to explain it to you again?
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Rick @ May 11 2012, 07:50 AM) *
You might want to check your facts. Boxing and cage fighting are NOT ranked higher than football and isn't even ranked near the top for concussions.

In fact, for high school sports, football is absolutely at the top of the concussion list:
http://www.momsteam.com/health-safety/conc...h-school-sports

I cannot find stats on the other sports--other than football. So I can't say what the top sport is but, having been involved in MMA for a number of years--I can tell you that is most definitely NOT near the top as a sport.

I can also not find ANY info on concussions in racing. Not saying it doesn't happen as I'm not a racing fan but I know I've never heard of this being a major issue. But, that means nothing, as I said, I don't follow racing in any form.

I will say, however, there is info on concussions for football players all over the place. That leads me to believe two things...1) it's a hot topic and 2) it's obviously a sport which has a HIGH number of concussions...higher than other sports.


so you refute my statement definitively in your first line and then say you have no idea if it is true because you don't have the statistics? How do you know if boxing and MMA are not ranked higher or not? Because you say so? and you think boxing and MMA do not have high incident rates of concussions? Seriously? You realize a knock out is a concussion while the reverse is not necessarily true....you don't need to lose consciousness to have a concussion.(http://heavyfists.com/difference-knockout-concussion)......maybe you lost too many fights......Boxing by its very nature is huge for concussions, it just does not enjoy the visibility that the NFL does.

I did some quick digging.....I had read an article years ago about which sports rank where.....here is a quick article on this....I will find the original article I read on the subject later......http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/2012/05/in-defense-of-the-nfl-and-its-fans-following-the-tragic-loss-of-junior-seau/

Now you quote high school sports but how many high schools have boxing teams? or hockey teams........and here is the original report by the way....http://www.medstarsportshealth.org/documents/Am_J_Sports_Med-2011-Lincoln-0363546510392326%5B1%5D.pdf
Part of the reason for the increase is the threshold for diagnosing a concussion has been lowered to err on the side of caution...a reasonable move to be honest...better safe than sorry.

Reality Fan
QUOTE (Rick @ May 10 2012, 07:32 AM) *
Yup. How many other players have experienced the same depression and then killed themselves. Autopsy showed they had some serious brain problems likely caused by the repeated collisions these guys have throughout their careers.

The mentality of, "they knew the risks, they could have chosen a different career," is just plain stupid. This is what's said by people who actually have the ability to have other careers. Most of these kids who make it into the NFL would NEVER be able to go to college and do something other than digging ditches.

Let's also put it another way. If you worked in an office and a bunch of employees all got the same form of cancer there would be an uproar. If it was then determined that cancer was caused by something in the workplace and the company KNEW about it but covered it up and did nothing to remove that something, you'd see a bunch of lawsuits. Why do we look at professional sports any differently? Because they make more money? They deserve the same protection from workplace injuries/illnesses as anyone else does. Are they more likely to get hurt than someone working in an office? Of course. However, it doesn't mean they should ignore what's happening. They should do everything they can to make it as safe an environment as possible.



I just want your original post here to show you what you DID say.......you were pretty clear on that point....but I begrudge these guys their money? You think they are all idiots.....too funny
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Rick @ May 11 2012, 03:40 PM) *
Again, you're putting words into my mouth which were never used nor implied. You seem to have a problem with the fact that these guys make a lot of money. What they make has NO BEARING on whether they should (or shouldn't) be afforded the same protections as a coal miner (remember, coal miners make quite a bit more money than others where they live because of the risk involved in their occupation). There was no misdirection. It's two jobs which carry more risk than an office job. One has a lot of protection, the other doesn't.

I guess what I'm saying is too complex for you to fathom. Let me make it clear (again) so you won't miss it this time. Ready? Pay attention now...

I have never said--nor inferred--the NFL did anything wrong. All I've said is, if they did do something wrong, they they should be made to take care of the situation like ANY other business who does something similar. If they did nothing wrong, then they shouldn't have to do anything to rectify the situation.

Let's take a moment, maybe you should go back and read that last statement again to ensure you FINALLY know what I'm saying.

Not sure why that's so hard for you to understand. I have no idea whether the NFL did anything wrong just as you have no idea if they didn't do anything wrong. You keep saying I'm trying to say they've done something wrong. You couldn't be more WRONG on this point you keep hammering home. You use this as a misdirection to keep from answering the question I've been asking--why shouldn't NFL players be afforded the same level of protection other professions provide (if they aren't currently)? Oh wait, you did answer that. You feel they're a bunch of whining rich people and don't deserve to be protected. Or did I miss something?

Do you understand now or do I need to explain it to you again?


let me clue you in on something.......I have had the good fortune of knowing several players and, god willing, a kid who is like a nephew to me just signed with the Falcons and will make it so I don't begrudge players anything and, unlike you, I don't think they are mostly idiots who can only play football for the most part.

I love guys like you who think they are suddenly bright....pay attention? really? so you can tell me again how few concussions there are in boxing? Possibly the dumbest thing I have every heard......hell....if you are knocked out in a fight there is a 30 day mandatory layoff for that very reason.....every match starts with the intent to cause a concussion....

What you keep prattling on about trying to cover your ass is protections for the players.....what protections would you like?

The government to come in and say no more contact? It is a collision sport......there are no options....the helmets and the mouth piece are the two options and the NFL has tried to fix them but it has been an elusive answer.

So just what do you propose?
BirdsWinBaby
QUOTE (Rick @ May 11 2012, 06:41 AM) *
I supposed you were one of the people who believed smoking didn't cause lung cancer and the other bad diseases it causes because it hasn't been, "proven."


lolwut? i didnt say i dont believe that brain trauma from football can cause depression. in fact i said the opposite. you missed it. even so i will use your misplaced response to help you understand my point

if a person dies from lung cancer you cannot say the cancer came from smoking until it is proven thru testing

if a person commits suicide you cannot say that he must have been depressed due to football head trauma until it is proven thru testing

y'know how the family has agreed to have his brain examined TO SEE if his brain was damaged? yea....like that
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE
If brain injuries were such an obvious side effect of an NFL career, why did Goodell try so hard to deny the correlation?


I dunno, because he's a douchebag? When your job is to butt heads with gorillas 50 times a game, do you really need someone to tell you there's inherent physical risk with that?

QUOTE
Many guys have said that they wouldn't have chosen that path, knowing their fate.


Yes, I'm sure if any of them could go back to being 22 again, they would graduate from school, enter the grind, start out making $40k a year, and work their way up the ladder, retiring on a modest pension and social security after toiling for 40 years - as opposed to signing an NFL contract, making tens of millions of dollars, and living a lavish lifestyle for decades, with 6 months out of the year a vacation. rolleyes.gif
mcnabbulous
Yep. Cause every guy in the NFL makes tens of millions. Especially guys that played back in the day.
Reality Fan
Goodell's denial is almost as overrated and storied as the Lurie gold standard story.......

Goodell made his statement in a hearing some 3 years ago and retracted it a few months later.....and he has been a player safety nut as commissioner


and you are right mcb.....most don't make 10s of millions but even the rookie minimum is some pretty sweet change for a recent college grad, hell, the practice squad is a good gig moneywise for a college grad.....

and players back in the day just wanted to play......I love that most had to get real jobs in the offseason....great stuff
Phits
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ May 11 2012, 09:35 PM) *
Goodell made his statement in a hearing some 3 years ago and retracted it a few months later.....

He never verbally retracted his statement. His retraction is in the form of his actions. He promised to make player safety a priority, and has done so.....much to the chagrin of many NFL fans still clamouring for big collisions.

If you have a link to a verbal retraction I'd love to read it to see the hypocrisy in writing.
Rick
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ May 11 2012, 03:56 PM) *
so you refute my statement definitively in your first line and then say you have no idea if it is true because you don't have the statistics? How do you know if boxing and MMA are not ranked higher or not? Because you say so? and you think boxing and MMA do not have high incident rates of concussions? Seriously? You realize a knock out is a concussion while the reverse is not necessarily true....you don't need to lose consciousness to have a concussion.(http://heavyfists.com/difference-knockout-concussion)......maybe you lost too many fights......Boxing by its very nature is huge for concussions, it just does not enjoy the visibility that the NFL does.

I did some quick digging.....I had read an article years ago about which sports rank where.....here is a quick article on this....I will find the original article I read on the subject later......http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/2012/05/in-defense-of-the-nfl-and-its-fans-following-the-tragic-loss-of-junior-seau/

Now you quote high school sports but how many high schools have boxing teams? or hockey teams........and here is the original report by the way....http://www.medstarsportshealth.org/documents/Am_J_Sports_Med-2011-Lincoln-0363546510392326%5B1%5D.pdf
Part of the reason for the increase is the threshold for diagnosing a concussion has been lowered to err on the side of caution...a reasonable move to be honest...better safe than sorry.

First of all, a knock out in boxing or mma is NOT necessarily a concussion. You need to understand what happens in a knockout like that. In MOST cases, the head is twisted and the brain is not rattled.

And, again, you have this thing of putting words into my mouth. Where did I say I didn't think they have a high incident of concussions? I mean really, it's kind of hard to have a meaningful debate with someone who likes to make up things others area saying...

I explained I only found the high school sports. Obviously, boxing isn't something high schools do. My point was that football is absolutely much higher in concussions than you seem to think.

The article you posted is good and all but who's arguing about suicide rates, etc?

:::sigh::::
Rick
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ May 11 2012, 04:00 PM) *
I just want your original post here to show you what you DID say.......you were pretty clear on that point....but I begrudge these guys their money? You think they are all idiots.....too funny

And what, exactly is your point? Ho is that saying they're idiots? Because it's a fact that most of these kids are coming from poorer areas and that they're chances of going to college (whether due to money or sub-par schooling)? Again, you love to put words into others mouths to project YOUR feelings.

It really is difficult to have a meaningful debate with you since you create these fantasy arguments...
Rick
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ May 11 2012, 04:07 PM) *
let me clue you in on something.......I have had the good fortune of knowing several players and, god willing, a kid who is like a nephew to me just signed with the Falcons and will make it so I don't begrudge players anything and, unlike you, I don't think they are mostly idiots who can only play football for the most part.

I love guys like you who think they are suddenly bright....pay attention? really? so you can tell me again how few concussions there are in boxing? Possibly the dumbest thing I have every heard......hell....if you are knocked out in a fight there is a 30 day mandatory layoff for that very reason.....every match starts with the intent to cause a concussion....

What you keep prattling on about trying to cover your ass is protections for the players.....what protections would you like?

The government to come in and say no more contact? It is a collision sport......there are no options....the helmets and the mouth piece are the two options and the NFL has tried to fix them but it has been an elusive answer.

So just what do you propose?

I don't care how many players you know. What does this have to do with anything?

Again, where did I ever say players were idiots? You imply so many things and have no idea what you're talking about.

Who said there are few concussions in boxing? Again, you're making up things I never said. The suspension is a PRECAUTION. Regardless of whether you're diagnosed with a concussion (or not) you get suspended. This is a good thing. But you need to do a little research on what a concussion is and how it's caused.

Again, you deflect what my original point was by making up stuff you seem to think I believe (for whatever reason). My main point is, the NFL is no different than any other business out there. The players should be afforded the same protections any other business affords their workers. Does that mean I believe they should do more? I have no idea. I'm not an expert in this type of law. All I've said (repeatedly because you seem to not understand it) is, if there's something they should be doing then they should do it. If there's nothing else they should be doing, then no problem.

If you can't understand by now then, honestly, I have no idea how else to explain it to you. But I'm sure you'll make up some other things you say I've said or believe to make your point. You're good at that...
Rick
QUOTE (BirdsWinBaby @ May 11 2012, 04:10 PM) *
lolwut? i didnt say i dont believe that brain trauma from football can cause depression. in fact i said the opposite. you missed it. even so i will use your misplaced response to help you understand my point

if a person dies from lung cancer you cannot say the cancer came from smoking until it is proven thru testing

if a person commits suicide you cannot say that he must have been depressed due to football head trauma until it is proven thru testing

y'know how the family has agreed to have his brain examined TO SEE if his brain was damaged? yea....like that

Exactly correct. I know the family was flip flopping on whether they were going to allow his brain to be tested. I really hope they allow it.
Reality Fan
QUOTE (Phits @ May 11 2012, 11:00 PM) *
He never verbally retracted his statement. His retraction is in the form of his actions. He promised to make player safety a priority, and has done so.....much to the chagrin of many NFL fans still clamouring for big collisions.

If you have a link to a verbal retraction I'd love to read it to see the hypocrisy in writing.



I will have to track it back......I had it yesterday but how is educating yourself on an issue and changing your position hypocrisy? Are you saying that if you have one position you must stand by it forever no matter what facts you learn on the subject?
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