Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: To Rick with love
Eagles Forum > Philadelphia Eagles Message Board > Philadelphia Eagles or Football Related Discussion
HOUSEoPAIN
Take out that ACL

Ok, so there was some debate recently about what should happen to the Saints for bounty-gate. I found myself in the minority, assuming defensive players are taught since kindergarten to hit hard, yet clean.....and the best solution was to simply punish dirty hits, and for repeat offenders punish them severely and their coaches.

After listening to this, I am officially changing my position and conceding that this fucker should never be allowed in the league again, nor anyone who allowed it or participated in it.

Nothing that I found really over-the-top occurs for awhile, for those of you who want to see what I'm talking about fast-forward to around 2:40 when he starts talking about Crabtree. Some of you may find the previous comments over the top.

D Rock
I pretty much agree here.

But just to play devil's advocate . . .

We've often heard of players, coaches and franchises wanting to withold injury information. That's why there are rules that force them to be open an honest. Yet we all know teams are intentionally vague and at times (think Bellicheat w/ Brady's shoulder 2 seasons ago) openly disinforming the media.

The motivation for this was to prevent teams from targeting those players at the point of previous or current injury. That motivation is/was born out of the common understanding that this is how NFL defenses went about their business.

I'll take this moment to state again that I agree with you that Williams misdeads are abhorent and he should not be allowed to coach again.

But if you remove the financial insentive part of this scenario, I gotta believe that this sort of thing happens in more locker rooms than not. You don't think Jim Johnson would remind players Felix Jones was on questionable ankle? You don't think Trott would go to that ankle at the bottom of a pile?

I think the vast majority of defensive players would love it if every hit offered knocked it's recipient out of the game. No one wants to kill, maim or seriously injure a guy. But if you end his day, that's pretty much the goal.

The comments made by the VaGiants re: 49'ers kick returner and his concussion history are just as ugly as Greg's locker room comments. And they were comfortable enough with that attitude to share it on national television. In fact, bragging about it as if to laud their personal preparation.

The Saint's deal is only different in the money aspect and the fact that it's now so very public. That part is partially on the league itself. It appears to me that the NFL would have let the Saints off with a slap on the wrist had they ceased this nonsense upon first inquiry after the super bowl year. But they put Goodell in a tough spot continuing to do it after being chastised.

I'd bet that alot of defensive coaches are doing their dam best to keep a low profile at the moment.

Greg Williams is a dick and should never be allowed to coach in the league again. But the story is bigger and less black and white than the league would want us to believe.
Rick
I heard the same thing, it makes it even worse.


And I keep hearing the argument that this goes on all of the time so what's the big deal. If this is going on somewhere--and it's proven/they admit to it--they should also be banned for life...period. Remember, they used to play without helmets but (eventually) they made the players wear helmets (for better or worse) regardless of the fact they had played that way since football started (at the time).

Just because something has been going on does not make it right. I understand players hit other players hard. Some players will be happy they've just knocked a guy into another astral plane. I get all of that. However, to have a coaching staff not only encourage it but create a whole system to compensate players for going out to do just this is a much different thing. Would be just as bad if the players had created the bounty system themselves (without the knowledge of the coaching staff somehow). There just is no place for this sort of thing.

If you ban people for life for doing this you can bet you'd see less of it. If you are a player or coach and it's proven that you are doing this, you should go bye bye....for good.
Reality Fan
To play true devil's advocate........

where was all this righteous indignation when Buddy Ryan was here? Hell.....they didn't call it the bounty bowl because they were sponsored by a Paper towel company.......
Rick
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Apr 7 2012, 11:09 PM) *
To play true devil's advocate........

where was all this righteous indignation when Buddy Ryan was here? Hell.....they didn't call it the bounty bowl because they were sponsored by a Paper towel company.......

I felt the same way back then. I'm guessing this forum wasn't around then so that would be why I didn't voice my opinion here then.

How would you like it if someone came to where you work and did something to you which would keep you from working/supporting your family doing what it is you do? Especially if you love doing what you do?

Take that a step farther. How would you like it if someone came in and repeatedly beat you in the head at work to keep you from performing? Then, 15-20 years later you get ALS. Do you know what ALS does to someone? Yes, it kills them, ALL of the victims of ALS but it's worse than that. It slowly shuts down your muscles in your body so you can't do ANYTHING for yourself. Eventually, you become (essentially) someone laying in a bed knowing exactly what's happening to you but not being able to do things like feed yourself, go to the bathroom, etc. Then, it eventually shuts the muscles which help you breathe down so you suffocate.

Extreme? Yes. But these are the things which can happen when taking these shots repeatedly.

Now, obviously, all of these guys who get hit don't get ALS, however, an alarmingly-high number of football players have. Throw in the other serious problems--the brain problems where these guys can't remember things and some are going crazy and killing themselves--and it's hard to deny doing this to players is a bad thing. I'm not advocating they make the rules more strict or anything like that--it is, afterall a contact sport--but it's hard to defend guys who are going out and intentionally trying to hurt people.

Rick
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Apr 7 2012, 11:09 PM) *
To play true devil's advocate........

where was all this righteous indignation when Buddy Ryan was here? Hell.....they didn't call it the bounty bowl because they were sponsored by a Paper towel company.......

I felt the same way back then. I'm guessing this forum wasn't around then so that would be why I didn't voice my opinion here then.

How would you like it if someone came to where you work and did something to you which would keep you from working/supporting your family doing what it is you do? Especially if you love doing what you do?

Take that a step farther. How would you like it if someone came in and repeatedly beat you in the head at work to keep you from performing? Then, 15-20 years later you get ALS. Do you know what ALS does to someone? Yes, it kills them, ALL of the victims of ALS but it's worse than that. It slowly shuts down your muscles in your body so you can't do ANYTHING for yourself. Eventually, you become (essentially) someone laying in a bed knowing exactly what's happening to you but not being able to do things like feed yourself, go to the bathroom, etc. Then, it eventually shuts the muscles which help you breathe down so you suffocate.

Extreme? Yes. But these are the things which can happen when taking these shots repeatedly.

Now, obviously, all of these guys who get hit don't get ALS, however, an alarmingly-high number of football players have. Throw in the other serious problems--the brain problems where these guys can't remember things and some are going crazy and killing themselves--and it's hard to deny doing this to players is a bad thing. I'm not advocating they make the rules more strict or anything like that--it is, afterall a contact sport--but it's hard to defend guys who are going out and intentionally trying to hurt people.

Reality Fan
ok, that is getting a bit far afield.....

I have a completely different take on the concussion issue.......I am a realist and I believe in some modicum of personal responsibility in life. I understand and I sympathize with aging athletes and their physical struggles but what did they expect? They played a violent game and got paid for it. To blame the league for that is assinine. It is like blaming your commanding officer for ordering you into combat because he knew there was a danger you could get shot. Life is not a video game, the sport of football is based on violent collisions. If one does not realize there are physical reprecussions from these collisions than they are already in trouble in the game of life. It is important for the league to help to minimize these reprecussions as best they can but players must assume some responsibility for the risks they take when cash a check regardless of the amount. No one told them they werenot allowed to pursue "real" work......they were not forced into the coal mines.....

Just my opinion...
Rick
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Apr 8 2012, 10:17 AM) *
ok, that is getting a bit far afield.....

I have a completely different take on the concussion issue.......I am a realist and I believe in some modicum of personal responsibility in life. I understand and I sympathize with aging athletes and their physical struggles but what did they expect? They played a violent game and got paid for it. To blame the league for that is assinine. It is like blaming your commanding officer for ordering you into combat because he knew there was a danger you could get shot. Life is not a video game, the sport of football is based on violent collisions. If one does not realize there are physical reprecussions from these collisions than they are already in trouble in the game of life. It is important for the league to help to minimize these reprecussions as best they can but players must assume some responsibility for the risks they take when cash a check regardless of the amount. No one told them they werenot allowed to pursue "real" work......they were not forced into the coal mines.....

Just my opinion...

I don't disagree. I never said the league should be blamed for these things. As I said, "this is a contact sport." What I'm saying is, the league should get rid of people who are actually intentionally going out to injure other players.
HOUSEoPAIN
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Apr 7 2012, 11:09 PM) *
To play true devil's advocate........

where was all this righteous indignation when Buddy Ryan was here? Hell.....they didn't call it the bounty bowl because they were sponsored by a Paper towel company.......


I initially thought about that myself, but it really is apples and oranges.

First of all, there's no proof that there ever was a bounty at all on Cowboys players - the best 'evidence' was the word of Luis Zendajas, after suffering a concussion. He said when he was on the Eagles a player had once received 2 payments for hits on punters and kickers. This player was not named, and thus the suggestion could not be verified or challenged. Jimmy Johnson started the controversy in the first place by suggesting that Ryan put out a bounty on their players (after a ridiculously embarassing loss on Thanksgiving remember, 27-0), then Zendajas weighed in. Not exactly the most trustworthy sources.

Second, I agree as others have mentioned that players go on the field wanting to lay people out - after all, the name of the game is respect and fear, and you get both as a defense by making players think about what's going to happen to them.....this was all part of Williams' pre-game pep talk as well, and there's nothing wrong with it. This extends to players recovering from injuries, if Vernon Davis has had ankles issues and you want to put a big fucking hit on him to make him think about it a bit and shake him up, great.

However, singling out going after a player's ACL and breaking someone's ankles on the pile is way over the top, and goes beyond tough competition. Supposedly 'hits on punters and kickers' were met with compensation - he never said anything about intent to cause injury, or receiving a reward for putting someone on a stretcher.

Last, as there was never any evidence of a Ryan bounty on Dallas, there certainly was no video or audio of him doing this, so it's really a moot point. Did Ryan do it? Who knows, I wouldn't be surprised either way. Those were the most heated days of our rivalry, and Ryan's hatred for Dallas was well known.

Oh, and one more thing. I'm a typical Eagles fan, so if Ryan actually DID do it, I wouldn't really care at all, in fact it would make me love him more. And yes I know that makes me a horrible hypocrite - fuck Dallas biggrin.gif

D Rock
QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Apr 8 2012, 02:17 PM) *
ok, that is getting a bit far afield.....

I have a completely different take on the concussion issue.......I am a realist and I believe in some modicum of personal responsibility in life. I understand and I sympathize with aging athletes and their physical struggles but what did they expect? They played a violent game and got paid for it. To blame the league for that is assinine. It is like blaming your commanding officer for ordering you into combat because he knew there was a danger you could get shot. Life is not a video game, the sport of football is based on violent collisions. If one does not realize there are physical reprecussions from these collisions than they are already in trouble in the game of life. It is important for the league to help to minimize these reprecussions as best they can but players must assume some responsibility for the risks they take when cash a check regardless of the amount. No one told them they werenot allowed to pursue "real" work......they were not forced into the coal mines.....

Just my opinion...

yup.
TGryn
QUOTE (HOUSEoPAIN @ Apr 8 2012, 11:25 AM) *
Last, as there was never any evidence of a Ryan bounty on Dallas, there certainly was no video or audio of him doing this, so it's really a moot point. Did Ryan do it? Who knows, I wouldn't be surprised either way. Those were the most heated days of our rivalry, and Ryan's hatred for Dallas was well known.

If I recall correctly, the video that usually goes with the Ryan bounty story shows Jessie Small (Eagles' LB at that time) taking a running start and making a beeline for Zendejas right at the beginning of a kickoff and delivering a hit to him, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense in terms of kickoff coverage since the kicker is usually the slowest and weakest guy on the field. If you're trying to collect a payout for taking Zendejas out of the game, though, it makes perfect sense.

This was an interesting article, asking some players from that time for their perspective:
http://articles.philly.com/2012-03-07/spor...l-luis-zendejas
I should add that Hopkins and Buddy Ryan didn't get along well, he wasn't one of "Buddy's guys", so I'm inclined to believe him when he says there wasn't a specific bounty on Zendejas.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2017 Invision Power Services, Inc.