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vermeilman
Andy Reid is clearly one of the best coaches in the game. His record says so. Yet along with that comes one fatal flaw, he is the worst game day coach since Rich Kotite. So what does an owner do? Because of his strengths Reid will likely keep you competitive, and often in the hunt. Yet because of his fatal flaw your likelyhood of ever winning a Super Bowl is close to nil.

I took note during the game that the pass/run ratio appeared skewed again. I believe it ended up 30-16 not counting Garcia scrambles. I also saw a brief look from Marty to Andy that I interpreted as a "what are you doing here big guy" look. No way I can watch this game again so if any of you who can see it let me know.

In any case its a good guess that Reid took over play calling after the O had trouble moving the ball early. Jeff Garcia was then asked to do his best McNabb imitation. And then in the end.....well Andy did what Andy often does, crawl in a hole when courage, aggressiveness, and smart decision making is needed. The field goal was debateable but hardly the act of an aggressive coach going for the win in a tight game on the road. And the decision to punt, oh my......

So its one hell of a problem for Lurie. No way you can fire the guy, but on the other hand can you ever win it all with him?
TGryn
I didn't have a problem with the run-pass ratio last night. Saints were clearly stacking the line, and their DBs couldn't stick with our WRs.
GQSmooth
Okay VM I'll play along who would you bring in to replace Reid??????????
vermeilman
QUOTE(GQSmooth @ Jan 14 2007, 01:39 PM) [snapback]102447[/snapback]

Okay VM I'll play along who would you bring in to replace Reid??????????

I'm not saying he should be replaced. I'm serious, its a dilemma. The guy is a winner. No one can deny that. And he has proven he will keep you in the hunt. So how do you fire a guy like that? But on the other hand he is horrible on game day and that will always kill you in the end. So I seriously don't know what Lurie should do. Its a unique problem.

QUOTE(TGryn @ Jan 14 2007, 01:36 PM) [snapback]102445[/snapback]

I didn't have a problem with the run-pass ratio last night. Saints were clearly stacking the line, and their DBs couldn't stick with our WRs.

I definitely disagree. This team won the last six games by NOT doing what it did last night. You run the ball, stay with it even when not initially successful. In the end it opens up play action and wears down the D. Hell, Hollis was sucking wind in the first quarter. Yesterday was Andy offense all over again, in the hole on time of possession. Back to the bad times.
GQSmooth
can u at least agree its about time to replace Trotter???
vermeilman
QUOTE(GQSmooth @ Jan 14 2007, 02:04 PM) [snapback]102456[/snapback]

can u at least agree its about time to replace Trotter???

I agree its time to replace Trotter if you can do so with a superior player, yes. But I will not trash the man and will not replace him just to make him a scape goat. But is Trott suffering from his knees and is it affecting his play? No question. Its sad to see frankly. The guy has been such a warrior. I still believe, however, its unfair to judge him with the horrible tackle play up front. But if you could get Urlacher would I replace Trott? The answer is yes. But on Trott here's the real question. Do you bench him for Gaither? Because that's the ultimate plan. They like Gaither but JJ does not see him as the WIL long term. So to that question I am undecided. I'm not sure Gaither will be ready next year to be your full time middle linebacker. Two years probably.
nephillymike
I think Lurie's dilemma is this.

What does he want?

Does he want a Super Bowl trophy?

If so, some major investment needs to be made.

I bleed green but trying to be objective, we are second or third best in the B division of the NFL, and there are at least five to seven teams in the A division (AFC) that are better than us. That puts us 7th-9th best in the league. We've fallen from 3rd - 4th in 2004 to 7th-9th this year.

My fear is that they will go with the Let's Just Get There" theme and ingnore the huge gap in talent with the A division and just look at the measely three points we came up short last night and plan accordingly.

The who's and what's we unfortunately have months to figure out, about three weeks longer that I thought we would. But the mindset is important and the bar must be set soon.
vermeilman
QUOTE(nephillymike @ Jan 14 2007, 02:26 PM) [snapback]102461[/snapback]

I think Lurie's dilemma is this.

What does he want?

Does he want a Super Bowl trophy?

If so, some major investment needs to be made.

I bleed green but trying to be objective, we are second or third best in the B division of the NFL, and there are at least five to seven teams in the A division (AFC) that are better than us. That puts us 7th-9th best in the league. We've fallen from 3rd - 4th in 2004 to 7th-9th this year.

My fear is that they will go with the Let's Just Get There" theme and ingnore the huge gap in talent with the A division and just look at the measely three points we came up short last night and plan accordingly.

The who's and what's we unfortunately have months to figure out, about three weeks longer that I thought we would. But the mindset is important and the bar must be set soon.

Yeah but Mike even I have to concede their won/loss record, particularly under Reid, is very impressive. So you know their overall approach will not change. But still, to win a Super Bowl there does have to be change and Lurie needs to get that. I see as necessary:

1. Jim Johnson's resignation.

2. A serious reevaluation of the personnel department. Far too many misses to get to the promised land.

3. An aggressive retooling of the D. Tackles, ends, linebackers, safties, cover corners---all are needed. But if you don't have the right folks evaluating college and pro talent..

4. An on high executive decision forbidding Reid from play calling. This won't fix all game day fiascos, but its a strong start.
TGryn
Unfortunately our position isn't as strong this offseason in terms of draft position (27th) and cap room (25th) to make big changes. The good news is that a lot of the young guys looked like they started to come into their own this year, so major overhauls across the board don't look needed, either. But they have to be smart with the limited ammo they do have.
vermeilman
QUOTE(TGryn @ Jan 14 2007, 02:45 PM) [snapback]102467[/snapback]

Unfortunately our position isn't as strong this offseason in terms of draft position (27th) and cap room (25th) to make big changes. The good news is that a lot of the young guys looked like they started to come into their own this year, so major overhauls across the board don't look needed, either. But they have to be smart with the limited ammo they do have.

You don't think a major overhaul is needed on the D? We have horrible play from our defensive tackles, our much ballyhood ends can't get to the QB. We need two, maybe three linebackers, unless you're comfortable going with Dhani again and the always injured Barber, and yes, Trott has very little time left. And please, don't talk to me about GoCong. Hood will be gone, Brown can't cover in man, Lito has been getting injured alot, and Will James rarely is healthy. And who the hell can play strong safety?

Now maybe with a new D coordinator these glaring deficiences may look somewhat different. But as things stand now man---we have issues.
GQSmooth
Thats another problem I see, who out there would make a good aggressive d. coordinator. Rivera would be making a lateral change so thats out unless Chicago wants him gone. Same with anyone with the last name of Ryan. There is no truly dominate defense in today's NFL outside of Baltimore.
vermeilman
QUOTE(GQSmooth @ Jan 14 2007, 03:16 PM) [snapback]102474[/snapback]

Thats another problem I see, who out there would make a good aggressive d. coordinator. Rivera would be making a lateral change so thats out unless Chicago wants him gone. Same with anyone with the last name of Ryan. There is no truly dominate defense in today's NFL outside of Baltimore.

I don't believe Reid would ever bring a Ryan in here tho I'd dig it. Now Rivera is from our system and Reid likes him, and Jeffrey has shown he will pony up the dough for coaches. But how long would Rivera be here before he became a head coach? That would be my concern.

Here's a dark horse possibility of interest:

John Harbaugh. wink.gif
AustinFan
This is a rebuilding team that got to the second round of the playoffs and almost won. Not exactly a candidate for a massive overhaul.

What's wrong with the personnel department (and don't pull up picks from 2000, the current group has been together since 2004, when Licht arrived and Modrak's people were purged)?

I'd like to see JJ leave. No disagreement there.

Reid's "poor" playcalling and game management is greatly exaggerated, if it's not the QB, and not the defense, how exactly does he get to the playoffs and win so many playoff games? They haven't had a championship caliber defense since 2001.
bullwinkle
That is true. We're going to need a lot of things to get a championship caliber defense. One of them is a DB over 6'. He may not normally be our starter. But we got to get soemone to cover Plaxico and others like him. The other is a DT who can beat out Walker.

Our LBs might be ok with a SLB-MLB-WLB of Gocong, Gaithers and McCoy As long as we have top quality DTs. McCoy looked like he was coming on until injuries made him a paper tiger. Hoepfully, a year in the weight room will help that some. If we want to convert to a 4-3 defense, we need a lot of different personnel. And I don't think we have the draft picks and free agency money to fix it.

I'd be willing to give Dom Capers a try as our defensive coordinator.

I'm more worried about our OL than I was two weeks ago. I think we've seen the last of William Tra Thomas. And that will free up cap room. But it will also give us inexperience at LT.
philly93kearse
The question is will Kearse be back 100% or is he pretty much done? it doesnt look so bad if he'll be back and good.
vermeilman
QUOTE(philly93kearse @ Jan 14 2007, 04:07 PM) [snapback]102489[/snapback]

The question is will Kearse be back 100% or is he pretty much done? it doesnt look so bad if he'll be back and good.

Actually they may have IR'd him prematurely. Supposedly he's close to go now.
Zero
QUOTE(vermeilman @ Jan 14 2007, 01:14 PM) [snapback]102430[/snapback]

Andy Reid is clearly one of the best coaches in the game. His record says so. Yet along with that comes one fatal flaw, he is the worst game day coach since Rich Kotite. So what does an owner do? Because of his strengths Reid will likely keep you competitive, and often in the hunt. Yet because of his fatal flaw your likelyhood of ever winning a Super Bowl is close to nil.

I took note during the game that the pass/run ratio appeared skewed again. I believe it ended up 30-15. I also saw a brief look from Marty to Andy that I interpreted as a "what are you doing here big guy" look. No way I can watch this game again so if any of you who can see it let me know.

In any case its a good guess that Reid took over play calling after the O had trouble moving the ball early. Jeff Garcia was then asked to do his best McNabb imitation. And then in the end.....well Andy did what Andy often does, crawl in a hole when courage, aggressiveness, and smart decision making is needed. The field goal was debateable but hardly the act of an aggressive coach going for the win in a tight game on the road. And the decision to punt, oh my......

So its one hell of a problem for Lurie. No way you can fire the guy, but on the other hand can you ever win it all with him?

Honestly, we played the NFL's coach of the year and "elite" team to a stand off twice. We lost the first game because of a stupid penalty on the final scoring drive and in the second... Both games were in their house. The key to winning this game for me would be to have had home field advantage. It wasn't about the coaching except for the failure to go for it on our final possession.

Incentive for 2007....
HOME FIELD THROUGHOUT!
Bertie
QUOTE(vermeilman @ Jan 14 2007, 03:26 PM) [snapback]102478[/snapback]

Here's a dark horse possibility of interest:

John Harbaugh. wink.gif


That is, if he doesn't go run off to Palo Alto with his brother: http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/sports/16461911.htm

(Posters on a Stanford sports message board to which I subscribe and which has a few program insiders have floated this possibility as well.)
D Rock
QUOTE(vermeilman @ Jan 14 2007, 06:14 PM) [snapback]102430[/snapback]

Andy Reid is clearly one of the best coaches in the game. His record says so. Yet along with that comes one fatal flaw, he is the worst game day coach since Rich Kotite. So what does an owner do? Because of his strengths Reid will likely keep you competitive, and often in the hunt. Yet because of his fatal flaw your likelyhood of ever winning a Super Bowl is close to nil.

I took note during the game that the pass/run ratio appeared skewed again. I believe it ended up 30-15. I also saw a brief look from Marty to Andy that I interpreted as a "what are you doing here big guy" look. No way I can watch this game again so if any of you who can see it let me know.

In any case its a good guess that Reid took over play calling after the O had trouble moving the ball early. Jeff Garcia was then asked to do his best McNabb imitation. And then in the end.....well Andy did what Andy often does, crawl in a hole when courage, aggressiveness, and smart decision making is needed. The field goal was debateable but hardly the act of an aggressive coach going for the win in a tight game on the road. And the decision to punt, oh my......

So its one hell of a problem for Lurie. No way you can fire the guy, but on the other hand can you ever win it all with him?

I've not read much of the post game crap yet. Do we have it on ANY authority, let alone good authority that Reid was calling the plays? If we do, then I'd be pretty pissed. I simply can't imagine Reid taking over playcalling duties at this point. I thought he'd learned he's simply TERRIBLE at that role.

IF (and I believe that's a BIG IF) Andy took over pc duties, that has to go down as his SINGLE worst move EVER as a coach.


vermeilman
QUOTE(D Rock @ Jan 15 2007, 06:07 PM) [snapback]102779[/snapback]

I've not read much of the post game crap yet. Do we have it on ANY authority, let alone good authority that Reid was calling the plays? If we do, then I'd be pretty pissed. I simply can't imagine Reid taking over playcalling duties at this point. I thought he'd learned he's simply TERRIBLE at that role.

IF (and I believe that's a BIG IF) Andy took over pc duties, that has to go down as his SINGLE worst move EVER as a coach.

We don't know because the weak sister Philadelphia sports media didn't ask. What a pathetic group they are. What we do know is we threw 30 times and ran 20, and 4 of those runs were Garcia scrambles. Westbrook ran the ball a mere 13 times and gained 116 yards. What we know is Marty typically calls a balanced game, Reid does not. What we know is last offensive series the call was short pass to Westbrook on the left for a loss, Wesbrook run right for one yard gain, short pass incomplete to Westbrook----very very Reid-like.

It appeared to me during the game that Reid had his head once again buried in the play chart, and I thought I saw a look or two from Marty that indicated Reid may have taken over.

But again, we don't know because the Philly press was too scared and cowed to ask.
GQSmooth
Im glad I'm not the only one that saw that, his head was too buried.
md717
QUOTE(vermeilman @ Jan 15 2007, 08:16 PM) [snapback]102798[/snapback]

Westbrook ran the ball a mere 13 times and gained 116 yards.


That's misleading. One of those runs was 62 yards, so it's not like he was hitting 10 yards on all 13 carries. For the first half he had 9 yards on 7 carries, 2 of them for losses.
vermeilman
QUOTE(md717 @ Jan 15 2007, 08:39 PM) [snapback]102801[/snapback]

That's misleading. One of those runs was 62 yards, so it's not like he was hitting 10 yards on all 13 carries. For the first half he had 9 yards on 7 carries, 2 of them for losses.

And that's the way it works for backs with breakaway ability. They get denied time and time again and then bust a big one, often a result of the D getting worn down by the pounding. Check Barry Sanders' career.
Birdbrain
QUOTE(vermeilman @ Jan 15 2007, 07:48 PM) [snapback]102802[/snapback]

And that's the way it works for backs with breakaway ability. They get denied time and time again and then bust a big one, often a result of the D getting worn down by the pounding. Check Barry Sanders' career.

This is not a sarcastic question, but how was the New Orleans D playing us in the end? Were they playing the run or the pass more?

Because if they were in pass defense and we were still throwing the rock, that definitely reeks of Reid. After all, doesn't Marty usually stick with the occasional run, even if its only to keep the defense guessing?
md717
QUOTE(vermeilman @ Jan 15 2007, 08:48 PM) [snapback]102802[/snapback]

And that's the way it works for backs with breakaway ability. They get denied time and time again and then bust a big one, often a result of the D getting worn down by the pounding. Check Barry Sanders' career.


I see. So as the playcaller you would have executed repeated 3-and-outs while both RB's were stymied, getting an average of NO yardage to speak of in the first half, while the Saints piled up points with the great FP we granted as a result?

I'll take AR's playcalling over yours, any time.
vermeilman
QUOTE(md717 @ Jan 15 2007, 09:43 PM) [snapback]102810[/snapback]

I see. So as the playcaller you would have executed repeated 3-and-outs while both RB's were stymied, getting an average of NO yardage to speak of in the first half, while the Saints piled up points with the great FP we granted as a result?

I'll take AR's playcalling over yours, any time.

Of course you would, because as you have demonstrated time and time again you know absolutely nothing about football. Running the ball, even if initially unsuccessful, wears down the opposition's D, chews up the clock, and and gives your own defense a much needed blow. It kills the other team's front seven and almost always pays dividends in the fourth quarter---particularly when you have the biggest O line in the game. Time of possession was once again skewed, just as it was earlier in the year. Coming into the game the Saints had a poor run D, and the newly returned Hollis Thomas was sucking air in the first quarter. But no, Reid became intoxicated with the thought of abusing Fred Thomas, so rather than utilizing the approach so successful the last 6 games he reverted to form--- and a loss is the result.
md717
It only kills the clock and beats up the opposing front 7 if you can occasionally get a first down by running the ball.

Go ahead, look at the stats. First half Westy went for -2, 1, 5, 1, -1, 4, and 1. Those were his 7 carries.

Seriously. Look at the play by play and tell me where you'd have called run when Reid/Morninwheg didn't.

I have plenty of problems with what happened on Saturday night, starting with the 2nd and 1 early in the first quarter, and ending with the decision to punt. I don't need to make up problems that aren't there.
vermeilman
QUOTE(md717 @ Jan 15 2007, 10:09 PM) [snapback]102813[/snapback]

It only kills the clock and beats up the opposing front 7 if you can occasionally get a first down by running the ball.

Go ahead, look at the stats. First half Westy went for -2, 1, 5, 1, -1, 4, and 1. Those were his 7 carries.

Seriously. Look at the play by play and tell me where you'd have called run when Reid/Morninwheg didn't.

I have plenty of problems with what happened on Saturday night, starting with the 2nd and 1 early in the first quarter, and ending with the decision to punt. I don't need to make up problems that aren't there.

Its fundamental football 101, you stay with the run and don't abandon it. Eventually you soften the D. This is not new friend. I'm not hitting you with my own theory. This is as fundamental as you can get. I'm sorry if its new ground for you. The Saints came into the game with a poor run D. They had an out of shape Hollis Thomas playing nose and Mark Simawho in the middle. They would have worn down. What we needed was patience and a head coach who doesn't panic in crunch time. Westbrook ran the ball 13 times---that's it, and still picked up 116 yards. Busted a huge play after being denied early. Again, that's how it works.
vermeilman
QUOTE(Bertie @ Jan 15 2007, 05:23 PM) [snapback]102770[/snapback]

That is, if he doesn't go run off to Palo Alto with his brother: http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/sports/16461911.htm

(Posters on a Stanford sports message board to which I subscribe and which has a few program insiders have floated this possibility as well.)

Man, I'd hate to lose him. Time for JJ to retire and make Harbaugh the D coordinator.
md717
QUOTE(vermeilman @ Jan 15 2007, 10:19 PM) [snapback]102816[/snapback]

Its fundamental football 101, you stay with the run and don't abandon it. Eventually you soften the D. This is not new friend. I'm not hitting you with my own theory. This is as fundamental as you can get. I'm sorry if its new ground for you. The Saints came into the game with a poor run D. They had an out of shape Hollis Thomas playing nose and Mark Simawho in the middle. They would have worn down. What we needed was patience and a head coach who doesn't panic in crunch time. Westbrook ran the ball 13 times---that's it, and still picked up 116 yards. Busted a huge play after being denied early. Again, that's how it works.


Problem is the game is only 60 minutes long. If the opposing D doesn't wear down until 90 minutes in -- then what?

What about SIXTY TWO of those yards came on ONE PLAY do you not get? In statistical circles, we'd call that an "outlier."

You have yet to look at the play-by-play and tell me where you'd have called "RUN" where Reid and Co. called "pass."

You're the football guru, shouldn't be too hard for you.
vermeilman
Sorry man, I'm moving on. What you know about football can be put in a thimble, and you don't realize it. Too bad. Class over.
bullwinkle
QUOTE(md717 @ Jan 15 2007, 10:48 PM) [snapback]102820[/snapback]

Problem is the game is only 60 minutes long. If the opposing D doesn't wear down until 90 minutes in -- then what?

What about SIXTY TWO of those yards came on ONE PLAY do you not get? In statistical circles, we'd call that an "outlier."

You have yet to look at the play-by-play and tell me where you'd have called "RUN" where Reid and Co. called "pass."

You're the football guru, shouldn't be too hard for you.


You're being baited by a moron looking for attention. If you want to talk football, you picked the wrong person. If you want to talk to someone who will say something to piss you off to get you to keep giving him attention, then by all means continue.
md717
You're right, Moose, of course.
vermeilman
QUOTE(bullwinkle @ Jan 15 2007, 11:32 PM) [snapback]102826[/snapback]

You're being baited by a moron looking for attention. If you want to talk football, you picked the wrong person. If you want to talk to someone who will say something to piss you off to get you to keep giving him attention, then by all means continue.

Ya know, prune juice. I hear it works wonders for constipated, mean spirited, bitter old men.
md717
You know, prozac. I hear it works wonders for sociopaths with multiple failed marraiges and disfunctional kids.
vermeilman
QUOTE(md717 @ Jan 15 2007, 11:47 PM) [snapback]102830[/snapback]

You know, prozac. I hear it works wonders for sociopaths with multiple failed marraiges and disfunctional kids.

Sorry pal, one marriage, two kids in law school (at the same time) and still time to come here and watch you and grumpy cry like chicks. laugh.gif
Eyrie
Md, you're an idiot tongue.gif The logic is faultless. Keep running at the opposing defence and all those three and outs will have them so worn out by the fourth quarter that they'll be too exhausted to make any tackles.

Of course, you'll be trailing by 30+ points and your own defence will be too tired to make it off the field, but hey, that's football! biggrin.gif
Pila
The guy is nominating the Special Teams coach to replace JJ as the new defensive coordinator, and you take him seriously enough to engage in a football discussion with the poor, challenged boy?

Now that doesn't mean he useless, you just never know when you'll need his expertise... say for example you come to such circumstance where eating your own boogers may save your life. Then that's the number you wanna dial. I suspect there's no better expert in nose monkey removal than our very own Vermeilman. Albeit Buddy's Balls probably a close second.
vermeilman
QUOTE(Pila @ Jan 16 2007, 02:11 PM) [snapback]102877[/snapback]

The guy is nominating the Special Teams coach to replace JJ as the new defensive coordinator, and you take him seriously enough to engage in a football discussion with the poor, challenged boy?

Now that doesn't mean he useless, you just never know when you'll need his expertise... say for example you come to such circumstance where eating your own boogers may save your life. Then that's the number you wanna dial. I suspect there's no better expert in nose monkey removal than our very own Vermeilman. Albeit Buddy's Balls probably a close second.

Harbaugh is considered one of the great young coaches in the league. His background is on the defensive side of the ball. His pedigree is unquestioned. If not elevated he will likely leave. JJ is cooked. Really too bad you don't get any of that.
vermeilman
QUOTE(Eyrie @ Jan 16 2007, 01:37 PM) [snapback]102873[/snapback]

Md, you're an idiot tongue.gif The logic is faultless. Keep running at the opposing defence and all those three and outs will have them so worn out by the fourth quarter that they'll be too exhausted to make any tackles.

Of course, you'll be trailing by 30+ points and your own defence will be too tired to make it off the field, but hey, that's football! biggrin.gif

Westbrook busted his TD run in what quarter? The third? Well how can that be, since he was denied earlier in the game and stuff. laugh.gif
md717
QUOTE(Pila @ Jan 16 2007, 02:11 PM) [snapback]102877[/snapback]

you take him seriously enough to engage in a football discussion with the poor, challenged boy?


I engage in debates with the likes of you and Eyrie, don't I?? blah.gif

I know, I'm hopeless.
Zero
QUOTE(Pila @ Jan 16 2007, 02:11 PM) [snapback]102877[/snapback]

The guy is nominating the Special Teams coach to replace JJ as the new defensive coordinator, and you take him seriously enough to engage in a football discussion with the poor, challenged boy?

Now that doesn't mean he useless, you just never know when you'll need his expertise... say for example you come to such circumstance where eating your own boogers may save your life. Then that's the number you wanna dial. I suspect there's no better expert in nose monkey removal than our very own Vermeilman. Albeit Buddy's Balls probably a close second.

I may be a dummy for stepping in here, but I also think that Harbaugh will soon be a DC somewhere and depending on what Andy thinks of the guy it may be here. I've offered this up before, the Eagles like him as a coach, the question is if he's ready or if he needs some college work first.
Phits
QUOTE(Zero @ Jan 17 2007, 07:28 AM) [snapback]103043[/snapback]

I may be a dummy for stepping in here, but I also think that Harbaugh will soon be a DC somewhere and depending on what Andy thinks of the guy it may be here. I've offered this up before, the Eagles like him as a coach, the question is if he's ready or if he needs some college work first.

Glad I am not the only one thinking that it isn't that much of a stretch.
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