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- The Franchise   Excitement Level - '04   Oct 13 2017, 11:26 AM
- - Birdwatcher   QUOTE (The Franchise @ Oct 13 2017, 12:26...   Oct 13 2017, 12:09 PM
- - Pila   It's a bit weird to hear the national media ca...   Oct 13 2017, 08:16 PM
|- - The Franchise   QUOTE (Pila @ Oct 13 2017, 09:16 PM) It...   Oct 13 2017, 08:21 PM
|- - Zero   QUOTE (Pila @ Oct 13 2017, 09:16 PM) It...   Oct 14 2017, 04:40 AM
- - md717   The fair Mrs. md said to me after the game, ...   Oct 14 2017, 03:20 AM
|- - Eyrie   QUOTE (md717 @ Oct 14 2017, 09:20 AM) The...   Oct 14 2017, 04:18 AM
||- - md717   QUOTE (Eyrie @ Oct 14 2017, 05:18 AM) FTF...   Oct 14 2017, 08:46 AM
|- - Rick   QUOTE (md717 @ Oct 14 2017, 04:20 AM) The...   Oct 14 2017, 06:38 AM
- - mcnabbulous   Im still at more of a 2001 level where I feel like...   Oct 14 2017, 07:07 AM
|- - Zero   QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 14 2017, 08:07 A...   Oct 14 2017, 07:16 AM
|- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (Zero @ Oct 14 2017, 07:16 AM) I ne...   Oct 14 2017, 10:10 AM
|- - The Franchise   QUOTE (Zero @ Oct 14 2017, 08:16 AM) This...   Oct 14 2017, 12:12 PM
|- - Phits   QUOTE (The Franchise @ Oct 14 2017, 01:12...   Oct 14 2017, 01:17 PM
|- - Reality Fan   QUOTE (Phits @ Oct 14 2017, 02:17 PM) Ama...   Oct 16 2017, 11:17 AM
|- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 16 2017, 11:17 A...   Oct 16 2017, 11:33 AM
||- - Reality Fan   QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 16 2017, 12:33 P...   Oct 17 2017, 12:45 PM
||- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 17 2017, 12:45 P...   Oct 17 2017, 01:20 PM
||- - Reality Fan   QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 17 2017, 02:20 P...   Oct 17 2017, 01:41 PM
||- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 17 2017, 01:41 P...   Oct 17 2017, 01:57 PM
||- - Reality Fan   QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 17 2017, 02:57 P...   Oct 17 2017, 02:31 PM
||- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 17 2017, 02:31 P...   Oct 17 2017, 02:42 PM
||- - Phits   I believe that you do a disservice to your argumen...   Oct 17 2017, 05:41 PM
||- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (Phits @ Oct 17 2017, 05:41 PM) I b...   Oct 17 2017, 05:52 PM
||- - Phits   Even with a declining skill set, he had a tremendo...   Oct 17 2017, 10:39 PM
||- - mcnabbulous   Dupe   Oct 18 2017, 10:41 AM
||- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (Phits @ Oct 17 2017, 10:39 PM) Eve...   Oct 18 2017, 10:42 AM
||- - Reality Fan   QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 18 2017, 11:42 A...   Oct 18 2017, 11:24 AM
|||- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 18 2017, 11:24 A...   Oct 18 2017, 11:40 AM
||- - Phits   QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 18 2017, 11:42 A...   Oct 18 2017, 12:07 PM
||- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (Phits @ Oct 18 2017, 12:07 PM) Chc...   Oct 18 2017, 12:18 PM
|- - nephillymike   QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 16 2017, 11:17 A...   Oct 16 2017, 02:20 PM
|- - The Franchise   QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 16 2017, 02:20 ...   Oct 16 2017, 03:05 PM
|- - Phits   QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 16 2017, 03:20 ...   Oct 16 2017, 06:16 PM
|- - Reality Fan   QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 16 2017, 03:20 ...   Oct 17 2017, 12:46 PM
- - The Franchise   I like Aaron Rodgers and don't like to see him...   Oct 15 2017, 03:19 PM
- - Pila   Seattle is still a serious contender also.   Oct 15 2017, 04:02 PM
|- - The Franchise   QUOTE (Pila @ Oct 15 2017, 05:02 PM) Seat...   Oct 15 2017, 04:34 PM
|- - samaroo   QUOTE (The Franchise @ Oct 16 2017, 06:34...   Oct 16 2017, 11:05 AM
- - mcnabbulous   Yes yes - Andy...the guy who has been in the top h...   Oct 16 2017, 03:18 PM
|- - The Franchise   QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 16 2017, 03:18 P...   Oct 16 2017, 06:55 PM
|- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (The Franchise @ Oct 16 2017, 06:55...   Oct 16 2017, 08:26 PM
|- - Phits   You mean a 10-year veteran QB in the twilight of h...   Oct 16 2017, 09:13 PM
||- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (Phits @ Oct 16 2017, 09:13 PM) You...   Oct 16 2017, 09:34 PM
||- - Phits   QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 16 2017, 10:34 P...   Oct 17 2017, 08:47 AM
||- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (Phits @ Oct 17 2017, 08:47 AM) I t...   Oct 17 2017, 09:45 AM
||- - The Franchise   QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 17 2017, 10:45 A...   Oct 17 2017, 09:54 AM
|||- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (The Franchise @ Oct 17 2017, 09:54...   Oct 17 2017, 10:13 AM
||- - nephillymike   QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 17 2017, 09:45 A...   Oct 17 2017, 04:53 PM
||- - The Franchise   QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 17 2017, 04:53 ...   Oct 17 2017, 04:57 PM
|||- - nephillymike   QUOTE (The Franchise @ Oct 17 2017, 04:57...   Oct 17 2017, 05:12 PM
|||- - The Franchise   QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 17 2017, 05:12 ...   Oct 17 2017, 05:37 PM
||- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 17 2017, 04:53 ...   Oct 17 2017, 05:31 PM
||- - nephillymike   QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 17 2017, 05:31 P...   Oct 17 2017, 06:53 PM
||- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 17 2017, 06:53 ...   Oct 17 2017, 07:48 PM
||- - nephillymike   QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 17 2017, 07:48 P...   Oct 17 2017, 07:59 PM
||- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 17 2017, 07:59 ...   Oct 17 2017, 08:51 PM
||- - The Franchise   I have never in my life seen someone so hell-bent ...   Oct 17 2017, 09:22 PM
||- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (The Franchise @ Oct 17 2017, 09:22...   Oct 17 2017, 09:42 PM
|- - The Franchise   QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 16 2017, 08:26 P...   Oct 16 2017, 10:34 PM
|- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (The Franchise @ Oct 16 2017, 10:34...   Oct 16 2017, 11:03 PM
|- - The Franchise   QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 17 2017, 12:03 A...   Oct 17 2017, 09:39 AM
|- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (The Franchise @ Oct 17 2017, 09:39...   Oct 17 2017, 09:47 AM
- - Pila   Andy Reid is a really good coach. He has flaws, bu...   Oct 17 2017, 10:21 AM
- - The Franchise   QUOTE (Pila @ Oct 17 2017, 11:21 AM) Andy...   Oct 17 2017, 10:38 AM
- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (The Franchise @ Oct 17 2017, 10:38...   Oct 17 2017, 10:58 AM
|- - The Franchise   QUOTE No one can consistently beat good teams, oth...   Oct 17 2017, 12:59 PM
|- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (The Franchise @ Oct 17 2017, 12:59...   Oct 17 2017, 01:12 PM
|- - The Franchise   QUOTE What he will ultimately be known for is one ...   Oct 17 2017, 01:25 PM
|- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (The Franchise @ Oct 17 2017, 01:25...   Oct 17 2017, 01:39 PM
|- - The Franchise   QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 17 2017, 01:39 P...   Oct 17 2017, 02:10 PM
|- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (The Franchise @ Oct 17 2017, 02:10...   Oct 17 2017, 02:16 PM
- - Pila   QUOTE (The Franchise @ Oct 17 2017, 04:38...   Oct 17 2017, 10:58 AM
- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (Pila @ Oct 17 2017, 10:58 AM) All ...   Oct 17 2017, 11:39 AM
- - The Franchise   QUOTE (Pila @ Oct 17 2017, 10:58 AM) The ...   Oct 17 2017, 01:01 PM
> Excitement Level - '04
The Franchise
post Oct 13 2017, 11:26 AM
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I haven't been this excited about the Eagles since the Super Bowl run. Sure, we put together some really good teams years after that, but by that point it became clear Reid would never win the big one. Even during Michael Vick's run I could never feel truly excited, knowing what the end result would be. Chip was a fraud from the beginning.

Here we are - a coach and franchise QB developing well, and a solid defense. We can beat anybody right now.



--------------------
"If it came down to both teams were even, talent-wise, I think the opponent's team would win if it came down to coaching. Andy Reid got out-coached in a lot of games, man, a lot of big games."
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Birdwatcher
post Oct 13 2017, 12:09 PM
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QUOTE (The Franchise @ Oct 13 2017, 12:26 PM) *
I haven't been this excited about the Eagles since the Super Bowl run. Sure, we put together some really good teams years after that, but by that point it became clear Reid would never win the big one. Even during Michael Vick's run I could never feel truly excited, knowing what the end result would be. Chip was a fraud from the beginning.

Here we are - a coach and franchise QB developing well, and a solid defense. We can beat anybody right now.


I agree completely, and if they beat the skins next Monday the road to winning the NFC East looks bright.
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Pila
post Oct 13 2017, 08:16 PM
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It's a bit weird to hear the national media calling us a good team. I'm unprepared for the respect, and often find myself taking offense to the non existent sarcasm.


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The Franchise
post Oct 13 2017, 08:21 PM
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QUOTE (Pila @ Oct 13 2017, 09:16 PM) *
It's a bit weird to hear the national media calling us a good team. I'm unprepared for the respect, and often find myself taking offense to the non existent sarcasm.


The national media was (and is) in love with Reid, but after bringing Vick here we became the 'bad guys.' Then came the Dream Team fiasco, where we legitimately sucked. I honestly forget how the national media treated Chip Kelly, but even if it was good it didn't last long. Yeah, we're back getting praise.


--------------------
"If it came down to both teams were even, talent-wise, I think the opponent's team would win if it came down to coaching. Andy Reid got out-coached in a lot of games, man, a lot of big games."
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md717
post Oct 14 2017, 03:20 AM
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The fair Mrs. md said to me after the game, "What happens if the Eagles go to the Super Bowl?"

I said, "Typically, they lose."

cool.gif


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-MD 4/25/05
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Eyrie
post Oct 14 2017, 04:18 AM
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QUOTE (md717 @ Oct 14 2017, 09:20 AM) *
The fair and long suffering Mrs. md said to me after the game, "What happens if the Eagles go to the Super Bowl?"

I said, "Typically, they lose."

cool.gif

FTFY biggrin.gif

Good to see you - how's life?


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And I've been informed "Your Axis card is in the mail..................."
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Zero
post Oct 14 2017, 04:40 AM
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QUOTE (Pila @ Oct 13 2017, 09:16 PM) *
It's a bit weird to hear the national media calling us a good team. I'm unprepared for the respect, and often find myself taking offense to the non existent sarcasm.

Here's some of that priase.
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Rick
post Oct 14 2017, 06:38 AM
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QUOTE (md717 @ Oct 14 2017, 04:20 AM) *
The fair Mrs. md said to me after the game, "What happens if the Eagles go to the Super Bowl?"

I said, "Typically, they lose."

cool.gif

Ha!
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mcnabbulous
post Oct 14 2017, 07:07 AM
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Im still at more of a 2001 level where I feel like we are ascending and not peaking. But this is the best I’ve felt about the team since Vick’s run in 2010.
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Zero
post Oct 14 2017, 07:16 AM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 14 2017, 08:07 AM) *
Im still at more of a 2001 level where I feel like we are ascending and not peaking. But this is the best I’ve felt about the team since Vick’s run in 2010.

I never felt like Vick would lead them to the last game. I was excited about what he could do and the excitement he would bring, but he was a retread and not new wheels. Wentz is young and has a lot of room to improve and he has some good young players surrounding him. This is more like McNabb in 2000 except with LBs and WRs. biggrin.gif
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md717
post Oct 14 2017, 08:46 AM
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QUOTE (Eyrie @ Oct 14 2017, 05:18 AM) *
FTFY biggrin.gif

Good to see you - how's life?
Doing great, thanks - hope the same is true for you!

And your edit was apt. smile.gif


--------------------
"I bet you don't even know what 'condescending' means."

-MD 4/25/05
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mcnabbulous
post Oct 14 2017, 10:10 AM
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QUOTE (Zero @ Oct 14 2017, 07:16 AM) *
I never felt like Vick would lead them to the last game. I was excited about what he could do and the excitement he would bring, but he was a retread and not new wheels.

Within the confines of that season, he was brand new. No one had harnessed his potential the way Reid did for that stretch. NYG gave everyone the blueprint for stopping us, but there was a stretch where we looked like the best team in football.

QUOTE
Wentz is young and has a lot of room to improve and he has some good young players surrounding him. This is more like McNabb in 2000 except with LBs and WRs. biggrin.gif

An argument could be made that Wentz is already performing at McNabb's peak levels, which is incredibly exciting. Our LBs were pretty solid during the early Reid years.

Barring something terrible happening, we should expect another 10-12 years of Wentz excellence, with the peak happening in 4-5 years. Fuck that's exciting.
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The Franchise
post Oct 14 2017, 12:12 PM
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QUOTE (Zero @ Oct 14 2017, 08:16 AM) *
This is more like McNabb in 2000 except with LBs and WRs. biggrin.gif


We saw what happened when McNabb actually had a deep threat. Wentz has several solid targets.


--------------------
"If it came down to both teams were even, talent-wise, I think the opponent's team would win if it came down to coaching. Andy Reid got out-coached in a lot of games, man, a lot of big games."
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Phits
post Oct 14 2017, 01:17 PM
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QUOTE (The Franchise @ Oct 14 2017, 01:12 PM) *
We saw what happened when McNabb actually had a deep threat. Wentz has several solid targets.

Amazing how a reliable receiving corp can alter the perception of a QB, HC and overall team's progress.


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"Bless my eyes this morning, Jah sun is on the rise once again. The way earthly things are going, anything can happen." Robert Nesta Marley (1945 1981)
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The Franchise
post Oct 15 2017, 03:19 PM
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I like Aaron Rodgers and don't like to see him get a bad injury, but let's face it: we're the clear favorites right now to come out of the NFC.


--------------------
"If it came down to both teams were even, talent-wise, I think the opponent's team would win if it came down to coaching. Andy Reid got out-coached in a lot of games, man, a lot of big games."
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Pila
post Oct 15 2017, 04:02 PM
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Seattle is still a serious contender also.


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The Franchise
post Oct 15 2017, 04:34 PM
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QUOTE (Pila @ Oct 15 2017, 05:02 PM) *
Seattle is still a serious contender also.


There's several teams to worry about, but right now we're the best in the conference.


--------------------
"If it came down to both teams were even, talent-wise, I think the opponent's team would win if it came down to coaching. Andy Reid got out-coached in a lot of games, man, a lot of big games."
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samaroo
post Oct 16 2017, 11:05 AM
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QUOTE (The Franchise @ Oct 16 2017, 06:34 AM) *
There's several teams to worry about, but right now we're the best in the conference.


How weird would that statement have sounded in August? What a season so far.


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Reality Fan
post Oct 16 2017, 11:17 AM
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QUOTE (Phits @ Oct 14 2017, 02:17 PM) *
Amazing how a reliable receiving corp can alter the perception of a QB, HC and overall team's progress.


Very well said.....if Mcnabb had this WR corp early in his career he would be getting fitted for a gold jacket by now


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mcnabbulous
post Oct 16 2017, 11:33 AM
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QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 16 2017, 11:17 AM) *
Very well said.....if Mcnabb had this WR corp early in his career he would be getting fitted for a gold jacket by now

This is a bit presumptuous. Donnie did a heck of a job with limited weapons early in his career, but his success early was dependent on his running ability one way or another.

He came from a very niche college offense and definitely wasn't an advanced passer early in his career.

Had he maintained that running ability as his passing abilities improved, he'd be wearing a gold jacket.
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nephillymike
post Oct 16 2017, 02:20 PM
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QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 16 2017, 11:17 AM) *
Very well said.....if Mcnabb had this WR corp early in his career he would be getting fitted for a gold jacket by now

I think McNabb needed a coach who would call enough runs to make play action a weapon.

Andy needed to do a better job of that!
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The Franchise
post Oct 16 2017, 03:05 PM
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QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 16 2017, 02:20 PM) *
I think McNabb needed a coach who would call enough runs to make play action a weapon.

Andy needed to do a better job of that!


cheers.gif


--------------------
"If it came down to both teams were even, talent-wise, I think the opponent's team would win if it came down to coaching. Andy Reid got out-coached in a lot of games, man, a lot of big games."
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mcnabbulous
post Oct 16 2017, 03:18 PM
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Yes yes - Andy...the guy who has been in the top half of the NFL in run/pass ratio balance every year since he's been in KC (and was much the same with Feeley and Garcia as his QBs)

I've always heard that hindsight is 20/20, which makes it amazing that you guys can't figure out who was the primary reason behind lack of balance during Andy's time here.
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Phits
post Oct 16 2017, 06:16 PM
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QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 16 2017, 03:20 PM) *
I think McNabb needed a coach who would call enough runs to make play action a weapon.

Andy needed to do a better job of that!

....or at least one that recognized that his QB needed a reliable downfield target to throw to. That way 5 could utilize his arm strength and not consistently get beat up by having to use a dwindling asset (his mobility).


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The Franchise
post Oct 16 2017, 06:55 PM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 16 2017, 03:18 PM) *
Yes yes - Andy...the guy who has been in the top half of the NFL in run/pass ratio balance every year since he's been in KC (and was much the same with Feeley and Garcia as his QBs)


Yes I remember this, and it was absolutely maddening. If Andy consistently called the same kind of game plan with his star QB as he did and does with inferior QB's, things would have gone different.

I wonder if anyone has ever looked at a game-by-game record of win-loss results when Westbrook and Shady received a certain amount of touches. I would wager that when Reid called a balanced attack with #5 under center, we were damn near unbeatable.



--------------------
"If it came down to both teams were even, talent-wise, I think the opponent's team would win if it came down to coaching. Andy Reid got out-coached in a lot of games, man, a lot of big games."
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mcnabbulous
post Oct 16 2017, 08:26 PM
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QUOTE (The Franchise @ Oct 16 2017, 06:55 PM) *
If Andy consistently called the same kind of game plan with his star QB as he did and does with inferior QB's, things would have gone different.

Lol

Yeah, the same crowd that has been bitching that Andy never adapted now is now accusing him of not consistently calling the same gameplan with McNabb and his "inferior" QBs.

Classic stuff.

Old dogs don't learn new tricks, but yet somehow, Andy has had an offense that basically functions the complete opposite of how it did while he was here. And yet you think it was the coach and not the QB who dictated that.

While in McNabb's only full season under a different coach, said coach passed at a significantly higher rate (by 2%) and ran the fewest plays in his 18 year career.

I would hope our resident "numbers" guy would be able to see and appreciate that this likely isn't a coincidence.

Considering we had multiple top-10 season in rushing yards, while Donnie's best offensive season also included being 31st in rush attempts and 24th in yards, I would also think that this idea that he was held back by a lack of running game to be a total farce.

But ya'll can continue to live in your fantasyland, falsely reminiscing about the type of QB Donnie was. Talkin' about winning multiple championships in a world where Aaron Rodgers has one and Dan Marino has none.



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Phits
post Oct 16 2017, 09:13 PM
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You mean a 10-year veteran QB in the twilight of his (injury-plagued) career wasn't as good, on a new team and a new offense, as when he was younger?

Go figure.

I wonder what the success rate is for other QB's in a similar type of situation?

QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 16 2017, 09:26 PM) *
Lol

Yeah, the same crowd that has been bitching that Andy never adapted now is now accusing him of not consistently calling the same gameplan with McNabb and his "inferior" QBs.

Classic stuff.

Old dogs don't learn new tricks, but yet somehow, Andy has had an offense that basically functions the complete opposite of how it did while he was here. And yet you think it was the coach and not the QB who dictated that.

While in McNabb's only full season under a different coach, said coach passed at a significantly higher rate (by 2%) and ran the fewest plays in his 18 year career.

I would hope our resident "numbers" guy would be able to see and appreciate that this likely isn't a coincidence.

Considering we had multiple top-10 season in rushing yards, while Donnie's best offensive season also included being 31st in rush attempts and 24th in yards, I would also think that this idea that he was held back by a lack of running game to be a total farce.

But ya'll can continue to live in your fantasyland, falsely reminiscing about the type of QB Donnie was. Talkin' about winning multiple championships in a world where Aaron Rodgers has one and Dan Marino has none.



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"Bless my eyes this morning, Jah sun is on the rise once again. The way earthly things are going, anything can happen." Robert Nesta Marley (1945 1981)
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mcnabbulous
post Oct 16 2017, 09:34 PM
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QUOTE (Phits @ Oct 16 2017, 09:13 PM) *
You mean a 10-year veteran QB in the twilight of his (injury-plagued) career wasn't as good, on a new team and a new offense, as when he was younger?

Go figure.

I wonder what the success rate is for other QB's in a similar type of situation?

This has nothing to do with "goodness." I didn't mention success or failure once.

This has everything to do with a coach throwing a disproportionate amount of passes when Donovan McNabb was their QB vs. when he wasn't.

You guys think it's some weird coincidence. I don't.
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The Franchise
post Oct 16 2017, 10:34 PM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 16 2017, 08:26 PM) *
But ya'll can continue to live in your fantasyland, falsely reminiscing about the type of QB Donnie was. Talkin' about winning multiple championships in a world where Aaron Rodgers has one and Dan Marino has none.


McNabb wasn't on the level of either of them. However, he was capable of beating anyone when his coach played to the strengths of the team. Once his ability to run started to go, the predictability of Reid's offense really caught up to us. The only time later in his career that we were contenders was when he was throwing to DJax. Apparently, genius Reid thought Reggie Brown was enough otherwise.


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mcnabbulous
post Oct 16 2017, 11:03 PM
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QUOTE (The Franchise @ Oct 16 2017, 10:34 PM) *
Apparently, genius Reid thought Reggie Brown was enough otherwise.

With the benefit of hindsight after the TO situation, the 2006 and 2007 offseasons, how would you have dramatically upgraded the receivers in the draft or via free agency?

Keep in mind, we did trade for Stallworth and sign Kevin Curtis those two years. So given everything you know now, how much better could you have made it?

Based on what I can tell, the only pro bowl receiver taken in either of those two drafts was Brandon Marshall in the 2006 4th round, but given his baggage, it's hardly a dramatic oversight.

Tell me how your genius would have solved that problem.



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Phits
post Oct 17 2017, 08:47 AM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 16 2017, 10:34 PM) *
This has nothing to do with "goodness." I didn't mention success or failure once.

This has everything to do with a coach throwing a disproportionate amount of passes when Donovan McNabb was their QB vs. when he wasn't.

You guys think it's some weird coincidence. I don't.

Nah, I don't think it's a weird coincidence. I think it's about a coach understanding where he erred. Also, that he requires a particular type of personnel to run his scheme.


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The Franchise
post Oct 17 2017, 09:39 AM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 17 2017, 12:03 AM) *
Tell me how your genius would have solved that problem.


My 'genius' would've recognized from the beginning that in order to run a consistently successful West Coast Offense, you need at least above average receivers. Therefore '06-07 wouldn't have been a problem.

Another thing to praise Howie and Doug about - we actually have receivers to help our young franchise QB!


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mcnabbulous
post Oct 17 2017, 09:45 AM
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QUOTE (Phits @ Oct 17 2017, 08:47 AM) *
I think it's about a coach understanding where he erred. Also, that he requires a particular type of personnel to run his scheme.

So the coach that I am always told doesn't know how to adapt completely changed his offensive philosophy 15 years into his career.

Sorry man, not buying it.

I think Andy covets two things from his QBs. Accuracy and mobility. Donnie had boatloads of one and not much of the other. Because the mobility thing was such an asset, he could get by with the lack of accuracy. Once the mobility went away, Andy was left scrambling (no pun intended). He tried to remedy it by drafting Kolb, which didn't work out.

But ultimately, Andy was tied to Donnie. In hindsight, I suspect he wishes he had moved on earlier, but it would have been very tough to do given the success they had together early. And it's not like acquiring a QB is very easy, as we've seen in the years since.

The reality is that beginning in 2005, Donovan wasn't really anything special. He was a guy that topped out at 23 TDs in a season. In the modern NFL, that's simply not impressive.

He had 5 really solid seasons here. I'll always think fondly of that run. But I really believe people think Donovan (and our team as a whole) were more special than they really were. 2002 was our best team, without question. Donnie breaking his leg really fucked us that year.

I do think Alex Smith is more aligned with what Andy really wants out of a QB. But he just barely meets the minimal arm strength requirements, which limits what an offense is capable of doing. They have a chance this year, but I don't think Smith is ideal to win in cold weather games, for that reason.
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mcnabbulous
post Oct 17 2017, 09:47 AM
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QUOTE (The Franchise @ Oct 17 2017, 09:39 AM) *
My 'genius' would've recognized from the beginning that in order to run a consistently successful West Coast Offense, you need at least above average receivers. Therefore '06-07 wouldn't have been a problem.

We drafted a second rounder, a first rounder, signed TO and gave Donovan bookend tackles his entire career.

Sometimes draft picks don't work out. But it's not like he didn't try. Freddie was a heck of a prospect and on paper, was an ideal fit for our offense who averaged 20ypc his junior year at UCLA.

But yeah, you're full of shit with your 06-07 wouldn't have been a problem (and just about everything else).
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The Franchise
post Oct 17 2017, 09:54 AM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 17 2017, 10:45 AM) *
So the coach that I am always told doesn't know how to adapt completely changed his offensive philosophy 15 years into his career.

Sorry man, not buying it.

I think Andy covets two things from his QBs. Accuracy and mobility. Donnie had boatloads of one and not much of the other. Because the mobility thing was such an asset, he could get by with the lack of accuracy. Once the mobility went away, Andy was left scrambling (no pun intended). He tried to remedy it by drafting Kolb, which didn't work out.

But ultimately, Andy was tied to Donnie. In hindsight, I suspect he wishes he had moved on earlier, but it would have been very tough to do given the success they had together early. And it's not like acquiring a QB is very easy, as we've seen in the years since.

The reality is that beginning in 2005, Donovan wasn't really anything special. He was a guy that topped out at 23 TDs in a season. In the modern NFL, that's simply not impressive.

He had 5 really solid seasons here. I'll always think fondly of that run. But I really believe people think Donovan (and our team as a whole) were more special than they really were. 2002 was our best team, without question. Donnie breaking his leg really fucked us that year.

I do think Alex Smith is more aligned with what Andy really wants out of a QB. But he just barely meets the minimal arm strength requirements, which limits what an offense is capable of doing. They have a chance this year, but I don't think Smith is ideal to win in cold weather games, for that reason.


QUOTE
We drafted a second rounder, a first rounder, signed TO and gave Donovan bookend tackles his entire career.

Sometimes draft picks don't work out. But it's not like he didn't try. Freddie was a heck of a prospect and on paper, was an ideal fit for our offense who averaged 20ypc his junior year at UCLA.

But yeah, you're full of shit with your 06-07 wouldn't have been a problem (and just about everything else).


laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

You could've saved us all a couple minutes that we'll never get back and just said "Andy is the greatest football mind in the history of the world. However, this God-like QB coach and offensive genius just keeps getting fucked with the deficient QB's he chooses to lead his oft WR-deficient teams."

Oh man this is gold.


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mcnabbulous
post Oct 17 2017, 10:13 AM
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QUOTE (The Franchise @ Oct 17 2017, 09:54 AM) *
However, this God-like QB coach and offensive genius just keeps getting fucked with the deficient QB's he chooses to lead his oft WR-deficient teams."

Oh man this is gold.

No, if you want me to summarize, it would be:

It's hard to find a great QB that is capable of winning a SB, let alone many. Which is why it takes a lot of elements, including a little bit of luck, to win won.

As I said, the year we were easily the best team in the league (2002), we happened to be about as unlucky as it gets (our QB broke his leg).

As you watch the next couple weeks of NFL football, let me know how well those teams fare that have lost their QB. Then again, you also have consistently told me how great McCarthy and Pagano are, so I'm sure neither of their teams will or have lost a beat.

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Pila
post Oct 17 2017, 10:21 AM
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Andy Reid is a really good coach. He has flaws, but his record speaks for itself.

What went wrong here is simply a matter of him being here too long, the process of losing coaches, being distracted by family tragedy, GM duties he was poorly equipped to handle, leading to passive leadership in the end. The course simply dried out here. But it wouldn't surprise me at all if Reid won a SB with KC in the short future.


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The Franchise
post Oct 17 2017, 10:38 AM
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QUOTE (Pila @ Oct 17 2017, 11:21 AM) *
Andy Reid is a really good coach. He has flaws, but his record speaks for itself.

What went wrong here is simply a matter of him being here too long, the process of losing coaches, being distracted by family tragedy, GM duties he was poorly equipped to handle, leading to passive leadership in the end. The course simply dried out here. But it wouldn't surprise me at all if Reid won a SB with KC in the short future.


He is a good coach - nobody has ever said otherwise. His regular season record speaks for itself.

He also has undeniable, glaring flaws related to game management - specifically, clock management and situational play calling. Because of this, he is unable to consistently beat good teams, which is why he will never, ever, ever win a Super Bowl - in order to win one, he would have to beat 3 or 4 elite teams in a row. His record in January also speaks for itself. For further reference, see my signature, courtesy of Jeremiah Trotter.

The last 2 weeks, Doug has closed out games like a boss - something we never got to see in 14 years with Reid. KC can have him.


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mcnabbulous
post Oct 17 2017, 10:58 AM
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QUOTE (The Franchise @ Oct 17 2017, 10:38 AM) *
He is a good coach - nobody has ever said otherwise. His regular season record speaks for itself.

He also has undeniable, glaring flaws related to game management - specifically, clock management and situational play calling. Because of this, he is unable to consistently beat good teams, which is why he will never, ever, ever win a Super Bowl - in order to win one, he would have to beat 3 or 4 elite teams in a row.

No one can consistently beat good teams, other than the Patriots. Literally no one. And they have arguably the best QB of all time. This isn't something unique to Andy Reid.

Good teams are good teams because they're tough to beat.

QUOTE
His record in January also speaks for itself.

He has the 9th most playoff wins of all time.

QUOTE
The last 2 weeks, Doug has closed out games like a boss - something we never got to see in 14 years with Reid. KC can have him.

Yes, if only we got to see Andy close out some games "like a boss" during his 140 wins here. You've got the memory of a fucking rat.
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Pila
post Oct 17 2017, 10:58 AM
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QUOTE (The Franchise @ Oct 17 2017, 04:38 PM) *
He is a good coach - nobody has ever said otherwise. His regular season record speaks for itself.

He also has undeniable, glaring flaws related to game management - specifically, clock management and situational play calling. Because of this, he is unable to consistently beat good teams, which is why he will never, ever, ever win a Super Bowl - in order to win one, he would have to beat 3 or 4 elite teams in a row. His record in January also speaks for itself. For further reference, see my signature, courtesy of Jeremiah Trotter.

The last 2 weeks, Doug has closed out games like a boss - something we never got to see in 14 years with Reid. KC can have him.

All coaches get out-coached occasionally. Other coaches get paid too. But you're right that his weaknesses have sacrificed wins and may happen again. However, that's hardly been the case for every playoff loss, nor does it rob him of his overall ability to coach winning football teams. The sole focus on his weaknesses as the only reason he loses in the playoffs is hyperbole as it ignores many losses where his coaching in the stated weaknesses never came into play.

If he keeps giving his teams a chance, the variables could very well fall for him.


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mcnabbulous
post Oct 17 2017, 11:39 AM
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QUOTE (Pila @ Oct 17 2017, 10:58 AM) *
All coaches get out-coached occasionally.

And sometimes, gasp, key players play poorly. Which likely has a bigger impact on the game outcome then anything else.
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post Oct 17 2017, 12:45 PM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 16 2017, 12:33 PM) *
This is a bit presumptuous. Donnie did a heck of a job with limited weapons early in his career, but his success early was dependent on his running ability one way or another.

He came from a very niche college offense and definitely wasn't an advanced passer early in his career.

Had he maintained that running ability as his passing abilities improved, he'd be wearing a gold jacket.


The numbers would disagree with you. He reached the zenith of his rushing yards in a season in 2000 and then it steadily decreased and he won with a great defense and terrible WRs. The real proof is when he actually got a real WR in TO and had ridiculous numbers while leaving games early because they were winning so handily.

One thing about him is that he had a great deep ball from day 1.


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post Oct 17 2017, 12:46 PM
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QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 16 2017, 03:20 PM) *
I think McNabb needed a coach who would call enough runs to make play action a weapon.

Andy needed to do a better job of that!


no...he needed a GM who understood the importance of the WR position....unfortunately the guy making those decisions was also the head coach


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The Franchise
post Oct 17 2017, 12:59 PM
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QUOTE
No one can consistently beat good teams, other than the Patriots. Literally no one. And they have arguably the best QB of all time. This isn't something unique to Andy Reid.


Actually, Tom Coughlin would beg to differ. As would Harbaugh, Cowher, McCarthy, Carroll, Tomlin, Payton, and a whole shitload of other coaches known for getting it done in January.

QUOTE
He has the 9th most playoff wins of all time.


Tied with several others, but yes. And a losing record in the playoffs to show for it. In the top 25 coaches with playoff wins, only Tony Dungy and Bud Grant also have that distinction. Both have bling. Reid doesn't.

QUOTE
Yes, if only we got to see Andy close out some games "like a boss" during his 140 wins here. You've got the memory of a fucking rat.


He was and is known for keeping teams around and thus losing leads, mostly because of his horrible clock management and refusal to run the ball when ahead late. Remember our talk about his playoff loss to the Colts, after being up by 4 touchdowns in the 3rd quarter? Then he decided to call 75% pass plays before ultimately blowing the lead?


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The Franchise
post Oct 17 2017, 01:01 PM
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QUOTE (Pila @ Oct 17 2017, 10:58 AM) *
The sole focus on his weaknesses as the only reason he loses in the playoffs is hyperbole as it ignores many losses where his coaching in the stated weaknesses never came into play.

If he keeps giving his teams a chance, the variables could very well fall for him.


If this was 2005, I'd be with you. It's 2017. Other than a win against the hapless Texans 2 years ago, his last playoff win was with McNabb and JJ. This is his 19th year as a head coach. It'll be the same 'ole song as always this year.


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mcnabbulous
post Oct 17 2017, 01:12 PM
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QUOTE (The Franchise @ Oct 17 2017, 12:59 PM) *
Actually, Tom Coughlin would beg to differ. As would Harbaugh, Cowher, McCarthy, Carroll, Tomlin, Payton, and a whole shitload of other coaches known for getting it done in January.

Hahahah. Yes, consistently. So consistently for all those guys. Every talks about Cowher that way. And McCarthy...totally highly thought of. Sean Payton, the guy on his way to his 4th straight losing season with Drew Brees as his QB? Yeah, total consistent group of winners you're throwing at me.

I'll give you Tom Coughlin though. He did have two unbelievable runs. He also was consistent in getting stomped by Andy Reid. Including in their only playoff matchup.

Tied with several others, but yes. And a losing record in the playoffs to show for it. In the top 25 coaches with playoff wins, only Tony Dungy and Bud Grant also have that distinction. Both have bling. Reid doesn't.
Tony Dungy? The guy Andy owned in the playoffs? Hmm, what was different when he won his title?

QUOTE
He was and is known for keeping teams around and thus losing leads, mostly because of his horrible clock management and refusal to run the ball when ahead late. Remember our talk about his playoff loss to the Colts, after being up by 4 touchdowns in the 3rd quarter? Then he decided to call 75% pass plays before ultimately blowing the lead?

Yeah, and you clearly forget the 140 games he won. What he will ultimately be known for is one of the best coaches of all time. Certainly more highly thought of than McNabb.
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mcnabbulous
post Oct 17 2017, 01:20 PM
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QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 17 2017, 12:45 PM) *
The numbers would disagree with you.

No they wouldn't.

QUOTE
He reached the zenith of his rushing yards in a season in 2000 and then it steadily decreased and he won with a great defense and terrible WRs.

Only if you consider the fact that he played 6 fewer games in 2002 than 2000. But in 2002, he averaged more carries and yards per game. And scored just as many touchdowns. 2002 was the best version of McNabb that we saw. It was unfortunate he broke his leg. We probably wouldn't be having these stupid ass discussions if that never happened.

QUOTE
The real proof is when he actually got a real WR in TO and had ridiculous numbers while leaving games early because they were winning so handily.

What is that the real proof of? He was in his 6th season in the league/same system. There is no real evidence that he would have been a dramatically better passer prior to that, given his niche college offense.

Not to mention, TO was arguably the best receiver in football when he arrived here. He wasn't just a "real WR." He was a god damn freak of nature. The idea that Reid did Donovan a disservice by not acquiring him a TO earlier in his career is silly. Those guys don't become available often.

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One thing about him is that he had a great deep ball from day 1.

No arguments here, but you don't have to be the most adept pro QB to have that skillset.
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The Franchise
post Oct 17 2017, 01:25 PM
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QUOTE
What he will ultimately be known for is one of the best coaches of all time.


Whenever he's finished, he will eventually be the subject of a 30/30 or something similar, the majority of which will be spent wondering 'what happened,' similar to a certain bitch who also refuses to retire.

At the end of the day, he'll be little more than a lovable loser. Marv Levy without the conference dominance. A guy who almost never failed to put a good product on the field, but when it mattered, he lost to Brad Johnson and Jake Delhomme at home in 2 of the biggest games of his career. A guy who couldn't close out a 28 point lead against an inferior opponent at home.

Et cetera.


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mcnabbulous
post Oct 17 2017, 01:39 PM
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QUOTE (The Franchise @ Oct 17 2017, 01:25 PM) *
A guy who couldn't close out a 28 point lead against an inferior opponent at home.

Nice to see how little you actually know or the make believe shit you tell yourself.
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post Oct 17 2017, 01:41 PM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 17 2017, 02:20 PM) *
What is that the real proof of? He was in his 6th season in the league/same system. There is no real evidence that he would have been a dramatically better passer prior to that, given his niche college offense.

Not to mention, TO was arguably the best receiver in football when he arrived here. He wasn't just a "real WR." He was a god damn freak of nature. The idea that Reid did Donovan a disservice by not acquiring him a TO earlier in his career is silly. Those guys don't become available often.


No arguments here, but you don't have to be the most adept pro QB to have that skillset.


Regardless of his "6th" year in the system eh had a real WR to throw to. Are you suggesting that TO had less impact then his delayed maturation? He got a quality WR and his passing per game went up dramatically, almost 50 y/g fromt he previous year and 30 more than his best year previous to that point. Beyond that, it was not needed to get a TO caliber WR but it certainly was important to exceed the James Thrash/Charles Johnson bar. I think Reid is a great coach but to suddenly act as if his penchant for undervaluing the RW position was not an oversight but rather a matter of poor circumstance is disingenuous. Add to that taking FredX instead of Wayne or Johnson or Smith demonstrated a clear lack of understanding of the position.

I can't blame it all on Reid, he had other voices in the draft room and the FA pursuit. AT the end of the day the media well documented and lamented his lack of focus on the position. We disagree on a main point, I don't want a QB to run much because, well, his job is to throw the ball and when QBs run, they tend to get hurt and it shortens their career. The list is a long one.


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mcnabbulous
post Oct 17 2017, 01:57 PM
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QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 17 2017, 01:41 PM) *
Regardless of his "6th" year in the system eh had a real WR to throw to. Are you suggesting that TO had less impact then his delayed maturation? He got a quality WR and his passing per game went up dramatically, almost 50 y/g fromt he previous year and 30 more than his best year previous to that point.

Why are you calling TO a "real WR" and a "quality WR". TO was a top-1 or 2 WR in the league. You're intentionally understating it. TO made Jeff Garcia a pro bowler. Donovan did (and should have) excelled with TO on the field. Hell, Andy Dalton looks competent simply because he has AJ Green.

QUOTE
Beyond that, it was not needed to get a TO caliber WR but it certainly was important to exceed the James Thrash/Charles Johnson bar. I think Reid is a great coach but to suddenly act as if his penchant for undervaluing the RW position was not an oversight but rather a matter of poor circumstance is disingenuous. Add to that taking FredX instead of Wayne or Johnson or Smith demonstrated a clear lack of understanding of the position.

This is bullshit. The NFL draft is a crapshoot. His decision to spend premium draft picks on the position in 2 of his first 3 drafts is a clear indication that it wasn't some systemic negligence.

Less than a month before the draft, Kiper projected Freddie to be the 10th pick and the first receiver drafted. Regardless of how you feel about Kiper, Freddie was very highly thought of and had a tremendous junior season and combine.

Belichick has had a blind spot for WRs throughout his tenure in New England. Somehow it hasn't absolutely crippled that franchise.
QUOTE
I can't blame it all on Reid, he had other voices in the draft room and the FA pursuit. AT the end of the day the media well documented and lamented his lack of focus on the position. We disagree on a main point, I don't want a QB to run much because, well, his job is to throw the ball and when QBs run, they tend to get hurt and it shortens their career. The list is a long one.

If your QBs best asset is his ability to run, not having him do so is pretty foolish.
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The Franchise
post Oct 17 2017, 02:10 PM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 17 2017, 01:39 PM) *
Nice to see how little you actually know or the make believe shit you tell yourself.


He was up by 28 points in a playoff game against an inferior opponent, and called 75% pass plays en route to one of the most embarrassing playoff collapses in history. I've already schooled you on this topic enough, it's just funny the straws you will grasp at to justify your disturbing worship of the guy.

I just can't wait to see what your excuse for his playoff exit this year will be.

"Alex Smith has trouble playing in the cold. The crowd at Arrowhead was too noisy."

laugh.gif


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mcnabbulous
post Oct 17 2017, 02:16 PM
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QUOTE (The Franchise @ Oct 17 2017, 02:10 PM) *
He was up by 28 points in a playoff game against an inferior opponent, and called 75% pass plays. I've already schooled you on this topic enough, it's just funny the straws you will grasp at to justify your disturbing worship of the guy.

Why were they an inferior opponent? The Colts had beaten the Chiefs two weeks earlier in Kansas City, 23-7.

Not to mention that KC lost their best player on the first series. But sure dude, whatever helps you with your consistently terrible, fact deficient brain sleep at night.
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post Oct 17 2017, 02:31 PM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 17 2017, 02:57 PM) *
Why are you calling TO a "real WR" and a "quality WR". TO was a top-1 or 2 WR in the league. You're intentionally understating it. TO made Jeff Garcia a pro bowler. Donovan did (and should have) excelled with TO on the field. Hell, Andy Dalton looks competent simply because he has AJ Green.


I am not understating TO

The previous year he was not top ten in yards or receptions. He was a freak for a 31 year old WR...hell, he was still a freak in Dallas but his head clearly was getting in the way. When he came to the Eagles he was a very good WR but he was not arguably the best....that was Marvin Harrison, Chad Johnson etc. but I guess anyone can debate who the best was. AT the end of the day it was not so much having "the best WR in the history of football" but rather having good WRs. It is humorous to see people blathering about having to get good WRs for one QB but dismissing the same need for those QBs they choose to diminish.


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mcnabbulous
post Oct 17 2017, 02:42 PM
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QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 17 2017, 02:31 PM) *
I am not understating TO

The previous year he was not top ten in yards or receptions. He was a freak for a 31 year old WR...hell, he was still a freak in Dallas but his head clearly was getting in the way. When he came to the Eagles he was a very good WR but he was not arguably the best....that was Marvin Harrison, Chad Johnson etc. but I guess anyone can debate who the best was. AT the end of the day it was not so much having "the best WR in the history of football" but rather having good WRs. It is humorous to see people blathering about having to get good WRs for one QB but dismissing the same need for those QBs they choose to diminish.

You're confused. I'm saying that good WRs can make bad QBs look good. McNabb was a good QB. So naturally having TO made him look better. But there is a misperception by Eagles fans that he was something that he wasn't.

Sure, having a (lets call it) top-5 WR early in his career would have been nice. But those guys are nearly impossible to acquire. You basically need to have a top-5 pick or get a headcase that dropped for that very reason.

Not too many QBs have the luxury of playing nearly their entire career with bookend tackles. At the end of the day, Donnie was what he was. A solid QB who could have been great had he been able to maintain his physical gifts that made him special. But he wasn't a WR away from being a HoF compared to his contemporaries.
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nephillymike
post Oct 17 2017, 04:53 PM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 17 2017, 09:45 AM) *
So the coach that I am always told doesn't know how to adapt completely changed his offensive philosophy 15 years into his career.

Sorry man, not buying it.

I think Andy covets two things from his QBs. Accuracy and mobility. Donnie had boatloads of one and not much of the other. Because the mobility thing was such an asset, he could get by with the lack of accuracy. Once the mobility went away, Andy was left scrambling (no pun intended). He tried to remedy it by drafting Kolb, which didn't work out.

But ultimately, Andy was tied to Donnie. In hindsight, I suspect he wishes he had moved on earlier, but it would have been very tough to do given the success they had together early. And it's not like acquiring a QB is very easy, as we've seen in the years since.

The reality is that beginning in 2005, Donovan wasn't really anything special. He was a guy that topped out at 23 TDs in a season. In the modern NFL, that's simply not impressive.

He had 5 really solid seasons here. I'll always think fondly of that run. But I really believe people think Donovan (and our team as a whole) were more special than they really were. 2002 was our best team, without question. Donnie breaking his leg really fucked us that year.

I do think Alex Smith is more aligned with what Andy really wants out of a QB. But he just barely meets the minimal arm strength requirements, which limits what an offense is capable of doing. They have a chance this year, but I don't think Smith is ideal to win in cold weather games, for that reason.


Not agreeing with most of what you are saying. Was away for a few days so I didn't reply sooner.

If Smith is more his guy, why move up to get his replacement in the 1st round?

When he left here, he had the highest pass % of any coach in the history of the NFL.

He ignored the pleas of his OL (Runyon and others), his RBs Westy and Duce, and his assistant (Childress). I saw him throw a ton of time vs Jacksonville here on a tailgate game in 40 mph winds, I saw similar at Cincy in a tie. He has issues.

I saw half assed ball fake skills for years.

I saw opposing LB dropping back in coverage the overwhelming amount of the time because we were predictable. DL having no respect for the run.

I contest that these things made McNabb significantly less accurate than he otherwise would have been. So, if I'm understanding your logic, (not sure that I am), McNabbs inaccuracies made him below average in moving the ball through the air beacause he had too many early down incompletions, forcing Reid to throw more because we were in 3rd and longs so often, the result which was a historic rate of passes?

It doesn't make sense to me. If Z McNabb was seen by Reid as a passing liability, why would a coach put his team in the hands of someone who he thought was ill equipped to run his offense? Isn't it his job to put his players in position to succeed?

I think most have noticed how improved Wentz mid term game is. Our running game is making those LBs come up a few yards and providing opportunities behind them to make those completions. That's a luxury Reid never gave Z McNabb. We had good TE to take advantage of it during Reid's tenure.

Maybe Reid's self reflection after getting fired, and talking to people he trusts like Childress who years earlier couldn't convince him, made Reid look in the mirror and change. Getting fired can have that impact.

As for McNabbs struggles after he left here, he was out of shape, not the sharpest tack in the box, and didn't put in the effort nor comprehend the new playbook fast enough to be a success. That infuriated Shanahan. McNabb was content with his career showing no inclination for the improvement and learning necessary.

As for Reid, he will struggle to reach the ultimate. While his teams have good odds of getting to the playoffs because of his excellent preparation skills, they have below average chances to go far regardless of seed because of his game day struggles. His clock management skills are still head scratchers. He needs an analytics guy timeclock guru to take the timeout decisions out of his hands within the last four minutes.

He's a real good coach and has a shot at getting in the HOF even if he doesnt win the SB. Four more playoff berths and two more conference game losses should seal the deal. Not too shabby, but I'm happy we moved on.
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post Oct 17 2017, 04:57 PM
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QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 17 2017, 04:53 PM) *
Four more playoff berths and two more conference game losses should seal the deal. Not too shabby, but I'm happy we moved on.


laugh.gif

Apply water to burned area!

All the points you make are true, and have been voiced by fans for a long time. It's truly sad how people will grasp at straws to avoid telling themselves the truth about this man. Pointing out such facts doesn't mean we hate him, or don't respect what he did here.



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nephillymike
post Oct 17 2017, 05:12 PM
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QUOTE (The Franchise @ Oct 17 2017, 04:57 PM) *
laugh.gif

Apply water to burned area!

All the points you make are true, and have been voiced by fans for a long time. It's truly sad how people will grasp at straws to avoid telling themselves the truth about this man. Pointing out such facts doesn't mean we hate him, or don't respect what he did here.

I really wasn't being funny with that comment. A few high quality years even without a SB win and he's in. It may take a year or so less. If at the end of the day that is what happens then he will deserve admittance. It won't change my thoughts of his lost opportunity here though.
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mcnabbulous
post Oct 17 2017, 05:31 PM
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QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 17 2017, 04:53 PM) *
If Smith is more his guy, why move up to get his replacement in the 1st round?

Because Smith is 33 and has shown his physical limitations time and time again?
QUOTE
When he left here, he had the highest pass % of any coach in the history of the NFL.

Yes, you've pointed this out several times. And yet now he's no where near that now. That's literally the point of this thread. The point is trying to figure out why that's the case. The big difference, from what I can see, is the man under center.

QUOTE
He ignored the pleas of his OL (Runyon and others), his RBs Westy and Duce, and his assistant (Childress). I saw him throw a ton of time vs Jacksonville here on a tailgate game in 40 mph winds, I saw similar at Cincy in a tie. He has issues.

I saw half assed ball fake skills for years.

I saw opposing LB dropping back in coverage the overwhelming amount of the time because we were predictable. DL having no respect for the run.

And yet he has won 189 more games as a coach than all those players, you and me combined. We had multiple years as a top-10 running team. This notion that there was no running threat is simply false.

QUOTE
I contest that these things made McNabb significantly less accurate than he otherwise would have been.

We ranked 31st in the league in rushing attempts, the lowest of Andy's tenure, in 2004.

QUOTE
So, if I'm understanding your logic, (not sure that I am), McNabbs inaccuracies made him below average in moving the ball through the air beacause he had too many early down incompletions, forcing Reid to throw more because we were in 3rd and longs so often, the result which was a historic rate of passes?

Well, not exactly. That contributed, but I would also say that Andy passed more with McNabb because it gave him more opportunities to complete those passes. If you throw 2 out of every 3 plays, there is a greater likelihood of one of completing a pass.

If you were doing the ring toss at a carnival, wouldn't you prefer 2 attempts than 1?

QUOTE
It doesn't make sense to me. If Z McNabb was seen by Reid as a passing liability, why would a coach put his team in the hands of someone who he thought was ill equipped to run his offense? Isn't it his job to put his players in position to succeed?

Because he drafted him and was basically stuck with him? It's not that he was bad, just inconsistent throwing the ball. My contention is that he did put his players in a position to succeed (hence all the success) by throwing the ball more.

QUOTE
I think most have noticed how improved Wentz mid term game is. Our running game is making those LBs come up a few yards and providing opportunities behind them to make those completions. That's a luxury Reid never gave Z McNabb. We had good TE to take advantage of it during Reid's tenure.

I don't really put Wentz and McNabb on the same playing field throwing the ball. We see what Wentz is doing on third downs, often "and long" situations, when throwing is the obvious play.

QUOTE
Maybe Reid's self reflection after getting fired, and talking to people he trusts like Childress who years earlier couldn't convince him, made Reid look in the mirror and change. Getting fired can have that impact.

And like I said, you think the guy decided to have some huge epiphany 15 years into the league. No way.
QUOTE
As for McNabbs struggles after he left here, he was out of shape, not the sharpest tack in the box, and didn't put in the effort nor comprehend the new playbook fast enough to be a success. That infuriated Shanahan. McNabb was content with his career showing no inclination for the improvement and learning necessary.

And yet you think Andy was what was holding this team back?

QUOTE
As for Reid, he will struggle to reach the ultimate. While his teams have good odds of getting to the playoffs because of his excellent preparation skills, they have below average chances to go far regardless of seed because of his game day struggles. His clock management skills are still head scratchers. He needs an analytics guy timeclock guru to take the timeout decisions out of his hands within the last four minutes.

I really don't believe any of this, but whatever. It's amazing how rarely we see him in a timeout crunch in KC.

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The Franchise
post Oct 17 2017, 05:37 PM
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QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 17 2017, 05:12 PM) *
I really wasn't being funny with that comment. A few high quality years even without a SB win and he's in. It may take a year or so less. If at the end of the day that is what happens then he will deserve admittance. It won't change my thoughts of his lost opportunity here though.


You should've taken credit for being funny, it was a good one-liner.

Even though Marv Levy never won a Super Bowl, he did completely dominate an entire conference for 4 straight years. He also won a couple CFL championships to boot. Frankly, Reid has done nothing but fall flat when it mattered, and most of the time as a superior team playing at home. Even in his SB appearance, he'll be remembered for his 5 minute drill. The only time the Bills were favored in the SB was against the Giants, and they lost because of a 47 yard field goal miss.

I don't think he should ever get in unless he wins the big one, and it doesn't matter how long he hangs around and racks up regular season wins against the Chargers and Jaguars.


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Phits
post Oct 17 2017, 05:41 PM
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I believe that you do a disservice to your argument by failing to acknowledge that AR had his shortcomings. Whether you feel that these shortcomings were the prevailing factor in his failure (to date) in winning a championship can be debated. However, with every word you type you give the impression that Reid was infallible and free of blame when that is clearly not the case.

QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 17 2017, 03:42 PM) *
At the end of the day, Donnie was what he was. A solid QB who could have been great had he been able to maintain his physical gifts that made him special. But he wasn't a WR away from being a HoF compared to his contemporaries.


At the end of the day, McNabb performed well whenever he had above average receivers to throw to. You can't deny that his career, as an Eagle, would have been more fruitful had he had reliable targets to work with for his career. Instead, he had a shorter career than anticipated. This is typically the case for mobile QB's, especially ones with a history of injuries.


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mcnabbulous
post Oct 17 2017, 05:52 PM
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QUOTE (Phits @ Oct 17 2017, 05:41 PM) *
I believe that you do a disservice to your argument by failing to acknowledge that AR had his shortcomings. Whether you feel that these shortcomings were the prevailing factor in his failure (to date) in winning a championship can be debated. However, with every word you type you give the impression that Reid was infallible and free of blame when that is clearly not the case.

I was the loudest opponent of Reid being the GM on this board. I think our failures were largely personnel based after 2004. Prior to then, it was luck...or lack thereof.

Donovan getting injured in 2002 and 2003 doomed us. I think we largely out coached NE in the SB and could have won that game.

QUOTE
At the end of the day, McNabb performed well whenever he had above average receivers to throw to.

He was much better before TO than he was after TO. So unless your argument is that he only performed well one year, I disagree.

He was a middle-tier QB at the end of his tenure in Philly. He was much better than that prior to 2004.

QUOTE
You can't deny that his career, as an Eagle, would have been more fruitful had he had reliable targets to work with for his career. Instead, he had a shorter career than anticipated. This is typically the case for mobile QB's, especially ones with a history of injuries.

I’ve said throughout this thread that his depleted physical skills contributed more to his failures than his supporting cast early in his career. So I can deny it. Because a supporting cast consists of far more than wide receivers.

If he had TO his entire career, that would have been helpful. Most QBs don’t have that.
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post Oct 17 2017, 06:53 PM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 17 2017, 05:31 PM) *
Because Smith is 33 and has shown his physical limitations time and time again?

Yes, you've pointed this out several times. And yet now he's no where near that now. That's literally the point of this thread. The point is trying to figure out why that's the case. The big difference, from what I can see, is the man under center.


And yet he has won 189 more games as a coach than all those players, you and me combined. We had multiple years as a top-10 running team. This notion that there was no running threat is simply false.


We ranked 31st in the league in rushing attempts, the lowest of Andy's tenure, in 2004.


Well, not exactly. That contributed, but I would also say that Andy passed more with McNabb because it gave him more opportunities to complete those passes. If you throw 2 out of every 3 plays, there is a greater likelihood of one of completing a pass.

If you were doing the ring toss at a carnival, wouldn't you prefer 2 attempts than 1?


Because he drafted him and was basically stuck with him? It's not that he was bad, just inconsistent throwing the ball. My contention is that he did put his players in a position to succeed (hence all the success) by throwing the ball more.


I don't really put Wentz and McNabb on the same playing field throwing the ball. We see what Wentz is doing on third downs, often "and long" situations, when throwing is the obvious play.


And like I said, you think the guy decided to have some huge epiphany 15 years into the league. No way.

And yet you think Andy was what was holding this team back?


I really don't believe any of this, but whatever. It's amazing how rarely we see him in a timeout crunch in KC.


You don't think getting fired when you thought you had all of the answers causes a self reflection? What about being a part of another organization and getting an assessment of how teams defended your Eagles over the years? That is a HUGE reflection point.

I think that Smiths iffy long ball and better short game was a secondary bigger contributor than McNabbs short game, with the post firing look in the mirror being primary.
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mcnabbulous
post Oct 17 2017, 07:48 PM
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QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 17 2017, 06:53 PM) *
You don't think getting fired when you thought you had all of the answers causes a self reflection?

I think it's naive to believe he would do a huge self-reflection after 15 years and not believe he was doing that yearly.

QUOTE
What about being a part of another organization and getting an assessment of how teams defended your Eagles over the years? That is a HUGE reflection point.

I think you underestimate how much self-scouting takes place in football.

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I think that Smiths iffy long ball and better short game was a secondary bigger contributor than McNabbs short game, with the post firing look in the mirror being primary.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean here.
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nephillymike
post Oct 17 2017, 07:59 PM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 17 2017, 07:48 PM) *
I'm not entirely sure what you mean here.


Because of Smiths long ball limitations (up until recently), Andy needed to call more of a controlled short range balanced attack. Except for self reflection of being fired, I think that was more responsible for the change of philosophy than any limitations of McNabbs short range game.
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mcnabbulous
post Oct 17 2017, 08:51 PM
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QUOTE (nephillymike @ Oct 17 2017, 07:59 PM) *
Because of Smiths long ball limitations (up until recently), Andy needed to call more of a controlled short range balanced attack. Except for self reflection of being fired, I think that was more responsible for the change of philosophy than any limitations of McNabbs short range game.

Well, outside some of the new spread wrinkles that Andy has installed, the Chiefs offense looks an awful lot like what i remember of our our offense with Garcia at the helm. So whether or not it's a product of the physical limitations or not, I don't think it's a dramatic shift in philosophy.

Unless Andy is really good at adapting his offense to his players, which hurts one of the main arguments against him.
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The Franchise
post Oct 17 2017, 09:22 PM
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I have never in my life seen someone so hell-bent on defending the indefensible, at all costs. How many more years of his failure in the playoffs will it take for you to give up?


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mcnabbulous
post Oct 17 2017, 09:42 PM
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QUOTE (The Franchise @ Oct 17 2017, 09:22 PM) *
How many more years of his failure in the playoffs will it take for you to give up?

It’s the dumbest concept ever so when he retires
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Phits
post Oct 17 2017, 10:39 PM
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Even with a declining skill set, he had a tremendous season when he got Djax. That leads me to believe that he didn't need an exquisite all-around receiver, but at least a competent threat. It was the missing ingredient to a winning formula.

QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 17 2017, 06:52 PM) *
I was the loudest opponent of Reid being the GM on this board. I think our failures were largely personnel based after 2004. Prior to then, it was luck...or lack thereof.

Donovan getting injured in 2002 and 2003 doomed us. I think we largely out coached NE in the SB and could have won that game.


He was much better before TO than he was after TO. So unless your argument is that he only performed well one year, I disagree.

He was a middle-tier QB at the end of his tenure in Philly. He was much better than that prior to 2004.


I’ve said throughout this thread that his depleted physical skills contributed more to his failures than his supporting cast early in his career. So I can deny it. Because a supporting cast consists of far more than wide receivers.

If he had TO his entire career, that would have been helpful. Most QBs don’t have that.



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post Oct 18 2017, 10:41 AM
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Dupe
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post Oct 18 2017, 10:42 AM
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QUOTE (Phits @ Oct 17 2017, 10:39 PM) *
Even with a declining skill set, he had a tremendous season when he got Djax.

Your definition of tremendous apparently differs from mine. He was outside of the top-10 in most relevant categories.

And as you said, a declining skillset. In this case, I assume you mean his athletic (e.g. running) ability. His mind and arm were fine. And most of his contemporaries were (and are) still excelling at that age.

Which basically makes my point. At what should have been the peak of his passing game (10 years into the league and playing in the same offense throughout), he was a solid passer. Nothing special.

Early in his career, he wasn't nearly as advanced of a passer. It wasn't what made him special and never would have been where he thrived. Regardless of an upgrade at receiver.
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post Oct 18 2017, 11:24 AM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 18 2017, 11:42 AM) *
Your definition of tremendous apparently differs from mine. He was outside of the top-10 in most relevant categories.

And as you said, a declining skillset. In this case, I assume you mean his athletic (e.g. running) ability. His mind and arm were fine. And most of his contemporaries were (and are) still excelling at that age.

Which basically makes my point. At what should have been the peak of his passing game (10 years into the league and playing in the same offense throughout), he was a solid passer. Nothing special.

Early in his career, he wasn't nearly as advanced of a passer. It wasn't what made him special and never would have been where he thrived. Regardless of an upgrade at receiver.


His declining skillset was self inflicted because he decided to become a tank rather than stay with his athletic mobile physique because he was taking a beating. This is not news, he said he was doing and even was featured on ESPn for his workout regimen. As he got bigger and stronger his speed and flexibility decreased. McNabb was a better passer from the start then you give him credit for, at least in my opinion. His issue was consistency, like a pitcher in baseball he seemed to try to steeer the ball sometimes and that is when he threw some wormburners.

He made bad decisions about how to grow old in the league and took a beating along the way...not uncommon for a QB who used his legs too much.


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post Oct 18 2017, 11:40 AM
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QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 18 2017, 11:24 AM) *
McNabb was a better passer from the start then you give him credit for, at least in my opinion. His issue was consistency, like a pitcher in baseball he seemed to try to steeer the ball sometimes and that is when he threw some wormburners.

Consistency was definitely his biggest problem. But I maintain that it took him a while to really learn the position (as it does with most of these guys) and by the time he did that, he had deteriorated as an athlete.

And that being said, he never became a premier passer. That simply wasn't his game.

Alas, what could have been...and not because of a lack of running threat IMO.
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Phits
post Oct 18 2017, 12:07 PM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 18 2017, 11:42 AM) *
Your definition of tremendous apparently differs from mine. He was outside of the top-10 in most relevant categories.

Chcicken vs the Egg. I believe that he was "statistically" outside of "relevant" categories because he didn't have any reasonable options at WR.

QUOTE
And as you said, a declining skillset. In this case, I assume you mean his athletic (e.g. running) ability. His mind and arm were fine. And most of his contemporaries were (and are) still excelling at that age.

Most of his contemporaries, that are still playing, had viable weapons at WR. Most importantly, they aren't (never were) mobile QB's. Of the QB's that were considered mobile, how many of them are still playing? or how many seasons did they play?

QUOTE
Which basically makes my point. At what should have been the peak of his passing game (10 years into the league and playing in the same offense throughout), he was a solid passer. Nothing special.

Usually, pro players who play 10 years in the league are on the other side of "peaking".

QUOTE
Early in his career, he wasn't nearly as advanced of a passer. It wasn't what made him special and never would have been where he thrived. Regardless of an upgrade at receiver.

Daunte Culpepper's time with upgraded receivers suggests otherwise. He is one of the few comparables. Even then DC was less reliant on his legs than McNabb was forced to be. Maybe Vick? Vick's passing ability was leaps and bounds ahead when he had the weapons he had in Philly. Siimilar to McNabb with the same cast.


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post Oct 18 2017, 12:18 PM
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QUOTE (Phits @ Oct 18 2017, 12:07 PM) *
Chcicken vs the Egg. I believe that he was "statistically" outside of "relevant" categories because he didn't have any reasonable options at WR.

I'm talking about 2009, with Desean and Maclin


QUOTE
Most of his contemporaries, that are still playing, had viable weapons at WR. Most importantly, they aren't (never were) mobile QB's. Of the QB's that were considered mobile, how many of them are still playing? or how many seasons did they play?

I guess it depends on how you define mobile, but Alex Smith runs far more at this point in his career than Donovan did at the same time during his tenure. Aaron Rodgers rushing stats aren't too dramatically different than Donovan's.

QUOTE
Usually, pro players who play 10 years in the league are on the other side of "peaking".

At basically every other position besides QB, yes. But the guys that have won championships during Donovan's era performed at a high level much longer than that.

QUOTE
Daunte Culpepper's time with upgraded receivers suggests otherwise. He is one of the few comparables. Even then DC was less reliant on his legs than McNabb was forced to be. Maybe Vick? Vick's passing ability was leaps and bounds ahead when he had the weapons he had in Philly. Siimilar to McNabb with the same cast.

Sure, you're comparing Donovan to guys that weren't championship caliber QBs. I'm trying to compare him to the guys that won championships during his era. And my point is that he has never stacked up. So the notion that it was our coach and not our QB holding us back from those championships is a flawed one, IMO.
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