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- D Rock   Serious Theater Developing in Dallas...   Oct 11 2017, 01:18 AM
- - nephillymike   I got my popcorn ready.......   Oct 11 2017, 01:44 AM
- - Zero   Regardless of where one stands politically on this...   Oct 11 2017, 05:29 AM
|- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (Zero @ Oct 11 2017, 05:29 AM) Rega...   Oct 11 2017, 07:21 AM
|- - Pila   QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 11 2017, 12:21 P...   Oct 11 2017, 09:52 AM
|- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (Pila @ Oct 11 2017, 09:52 AM) Of c...   Oct 11 2017, 10:02 AM
|- - Pila   QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 11 2017, 03:02 P...   Oct 11 2017, 10:14 AM
|- - The Franchise   QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 11 2017, 11:02 A...   Oct 11 2017, 12:30 PM
||- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (The Franchise @ Oct 11 2017, 12:30...   Oct 11 2017, 12:32 PM
|- - Zero   QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 11 2017, 11:02 A...   Oct 11 2017, 04:18 PM
|- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (Zero @ Oct 11 2017, 04:18 PM) This...   Oct 11 2017, 04:23 PM
|- - Zero   QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 11 2017, 05:23 P...   Oct 11 2017, 04:29 PM
|- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (Zero @ Oct 11 2017, 04:29 PM) If I...   Oct 11 2017, 04:40 PM
|- - D Rock   QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 11 2017, 10:40 P...   Oct 11 2017, 04:44 PM
|- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 11 2017, 04:44 PM) To...   Oct 11 2017, 04:49 PM
|- - D Rock   QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 11 2017, 10:49 P...   Oct 11 2017, 04:53 PM
- - CT_Eagle   QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 11 2017, 06:18 AM) Le...   Oct 11 2017, 08:05 AM
- - HobbEs   I heard on ESPN (so take it for what it's wort...   Oct 11 2017, 08:34 AM
|- - CT_Eagle   QUOTE (HobbEs @ Oct 11 2017, 02:34 PM) I ...   Oct 11 2017, 08:39 AM
|- - D Rock   QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Oct 11 2017, 02:39 PM) ...   Oct 11 2017, 09:27 AM
|- - CT_Eagle   QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 11 2017, 03:27 PM) No...   Oct 11 2017, 09:32 AM
|- - D Rock   QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Oct 11 2017, 03:32 PM) ...   Oct 11 2017, 09:34 AM
|- - CT_Eagle   QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 11 2017, 03:34 PM) I ...   Oct 11 2017, 09:44 AM
- - Dreagon   Don't forget, there are also local considerati...   Oct 11 2017, 08:35 AM
|- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (Dreagon @ Oct 11 2017, 08:35 AM) D...   Oct 11 2017, 09:00 AM
|- - CT_Eagle   QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 11 2017, 03:00 P...   Oct 11 2017, 09:08 AM
|- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Oct 11 2017, 09:08 AM) ...   Oct 11 2017, 09:13 AM
|- - CT_Eagle   QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 11 2017, 03:13 P...   Oct 11 2017, 09:18 AM
|- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Oct 11 2017, 09:18 AM) ...   Oct 11 2017, 09:20 AM
- - D Rock   Pointing to obvious and clear hypocrisy is only se...   Oct 11 2017, 09:19 AM
|- - CT_Eagle   QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 11 2017, 03:19 PM) Po...   Oct 11 2017, 09:29 AM
|- - D Rock   QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Oct 11 2017, 03:29 PM) ...   Oct 11 2017, 09:32 AM
||- - CT_Eagle   QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 11 2017, 03:32 PM) I ...   Oct 11 2017, 09:34 AM
||- - D Rock   QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Oct 11 2017, 03:34 PM) ...   Oct 11 2017, 09:36 AM
||- - CT_Eagle   QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 11 2017, 03:36 PM) So...   Oct 11 2017, 09:39 AM
|- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Oct 11 2017, 09:29 AM) ...   Oct 11 2017, 09:37 AM
|- - CT_Eagle   QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 11 2017, 03:37 P...   Oct 11 2017, 09:40 AM
|- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Oct 11 2017, 09:40 AM) ...   Oct 11 2017, 09:46 AM
|- - CT_Eagle   QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 11 2017, 03:46 P...   Oct 11 2017, 09:50 AM
|- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Oct 11 2017, 09:50 AM) ...   Oct 11 2017, 10:01 AM
|- - CT_Eagle   QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 11 2017, 03:01 P...   Oct 11 2017, 10:16 AM
|- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Oct 11 2017, 10:16 AM) ...   Oct 11 2017, 10:37 AM
|- - CT_Eagle   QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 11 2017, 03:37 P...   Oct 11 2017, 10:50 AM
|- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Oct 11 2017, 10:50 AM) ...   Oct 11 2017, 11:04 AM
|- - CT_Eagle   QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 11 2017, 04:04 P...   Oct 11 2017, 11:14 AM
|- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Oct 11 2017, 11:14 AM) ...   Oct 11 2017, 11:43 AM
|- - CT_Eagle   QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 11 2017, 05:43 P...   Oct 11 2017, 11:57 AM
|- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Oct 11 2017, 11:57 AM) ...   Oct 11 2017, 12:11 PM
|- - CT_Eagle   QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 11 2017, 05:11 P...   Oct 11 2017, 12:20 PM
- - Phits   My issue with the kneeling protest is that the att...   Oct 11 2017, 10:02 AM
|- - Pila   QUOTE (Phits @ Oct 11 2017, 03:02 PM) My ...   Oct 11 2017, 10:10 AM
|- - Reality Fan   QUOTE (Pila @ Oct 11 2017, 11:10 AM) No, ...   Oct 11 2017, 10:20 AM
|- - CT_Eagle   QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 11 2017, 04:20 P...   Oct 11 2017, 10:27 AM
|- - Pila   QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 11 2017, 03:20 P...   Oct 11 2017, 10:32 AM
||- - Reality Fan   QUOTE (Pila @ Oct 11 2017, 11:32 AM) The ...   Oct 11 2017, 12:29 PM
||- - Pila   QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 11 2017, 05:29 P...   Oct 11 2017, 02:49 PM
|||- - Birdwatcher   QUOTE (Pila @ Oct 11 2017, 03:49 PM) Look...   Oct 11 2017, 03:13 PM
||||- - CT_Eagle   QUOTE (Birdwatcher @ Oct 11 2017, 09:13 P...   Oct 11 2017, 03:44 PM
|||||- - Birdwatcher   QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Oct 11 2017, 04:44 PM) ...   Oct 11 2017, 04:25 PM
||||- - Reality Fan   QUOTE (Birdwatcher @ Oct 11 2017, 04:13 P...   Oct 11 2017, 04:01 PM
|||- - Reality Fan   QUOTE (Pila @ Oct 11 2017, 03:49 PM) Look...   Oct 11 2017, 03:57 PM
|||- - Pila   QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 11 2017, 09:57 P...   Oct 11 2017, 09:01 PM
||- - D Rock   QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 11 2017, 06:29 P...   Oct 11 2017, 03:02 PM
||- - CT_Eagle   QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 11 2017, 09:02 PM) ...   Oct 11 2017, 03:22 PM
|||- - Reality Fan   QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Oct 11 2017, 04:22 PM) ...   Oct 11 2017, 04:00 PM
||- - Reality Fan   QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 11 2017, 04:02 PM) ...   Oct 11 2017, 03:48 PM
|- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 11 2017, 10:20 A...   Oct 11 2017, 10:38 AM
|- - Reality Fan   QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 11 2017, 11:38 A...   Oct 11 2017, 12:31 PM
|- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 11 2017, 12:31 P...   Oct 11 2017, 12:39 PM
|- - Reality Fan   QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 11 2017, 01:39 P...   Oct 11 2017, 12:56 PM
|- - Birdwatcher   QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 11 2017, 01:56 P...   Oct 11 2017, 02:19 PM
|- - Reality Fan   QUOTE (Birdwatcher @ Oct 11 2017, 03:19 P...   Oct 11 2017, 02:31 PM
|- - Phits   QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 11 2017, 03:31 P...   Oct 11 2017, 07:05 PM
|- - D Rock   QUOTE (Phits @ Oct 12 2017, 01:05 AM) You...   Oct 11 2017, 09:16 PM
- - JeeQ   It'd be a shame if a Dallas player knelt on Su...   Oct 11 2017, 11:20 AM
- - The Franchise   Roger Goodell is scrambling to make it a new rule,...   Oct 11 2017, 12:36 PM
- - Aquila   QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 11 2017, 07:18 AM) Le...   Oct 11 2017, 02:28 PM
- - mcnabbulous   To the original point, I'm somewhat surprised ...   Oct 11 2017, 02:41 PM
- - D Rock   There has been much said in this thread re: the me...   Oct 11 2017, 03:11 PM
|- - CT_Eagle   QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 11 2017, 09:11 PM) Th...   Oct 11 2017, 03:32 PM
- - nephillymike   I just read all 75 posts after mine. All the opin...   Oct 11 2017, 09:45 PM
- - D Rock   Easy there, Ripper. The courts have set precede...   Oct 11 2017, 10:37 PM
|- - Zero   QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 11 2017, 11:37 PM) Ea...   Oct 12 2017, 04:47 AM
||- - D Rock   QUOTE (Zero @ Oct 12 2017, 10:47 AM) Are ...   Oct 12 2017, 09:17 AM
||- - Birdwatcher   QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 12 2017, 10:17 AM) No...   Oct 12 2017, 01:01 PM
||- - CT_Eagle   QUOTE (Birdwatcher @ Oct 12 2017, 06:01 P...   Oct 12 2017, 01:07 PM
||- - The Franchise   QUOTE (Birdwatcher @ Oct 12 2017, 01:01 P...   Oct 12 2017, 01:31 PM
|- - nephillymike   QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 11 2017, 10:37 PM) Ea...   Oct 12 2017, 05:09 AM
|- - Reality Fan   QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 11 2017, 11:37 PM) Ea...   Oct 12 2017, 08:25 AM
- - Reality Fan   The easiest solution would be to let players produ...   Oct 12 2017, 01:52 PM
- - Birdman420   So I'd like to add what I think to this conver...   Oct 12 2017, 07:01 PM
|- - The Franchise   QUOTE (Birdman420 @ Oct 12 2017, 07:01 PM...   Oct 13 2017, 03:23 PM
- - D Rock   Interesting   Oct 13 2017, 03:00 PM
- - Birdman420   Typical response from you Franchise, I'll tr...   Oct 13 2017, 04:16 PM
- - Aquila   There's been a good effort by everyone to keep...   Oct 13 2017, 05:13 PM
> Serious Theater Developing in Dallas...
D Rock
post Oct 11 2017, 01:18 AM
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Let’s see if we can have a conversation that wont get sent to the G&G...

In response to Pence’s show in Indy this past week, and after taking a knee with his team a few weeks ago in response to trumps ‘sons of bitches’ comment... Jerry has thrown down an ultimatum to his team that anybody who doesn’t stand for the anthem, “will not play.”

However you feel about the greater discussion is irrelevant here. I’m asking your thoughts about what the players might be thinking leading up to this Sunday. I caught a story about some major organized labor group (forget which) filing suit against Jones for violating labor laws. And Schefter was on ESPN saying the perception is “the administration is trolling the league.”

This should be fascinating.


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nephillymike
post Oct 11 2017, 01:44 AM
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I got my popcorn ready.......
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Zero
post Oct 11 2017, 05:29 AM
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Regardless of where one stands politically on this, I always thought an employer could dictate some rules to the employees. I don't think appearance is one of them, even though the NFL does that regularly with impunity, but I wonder how this will flow. Judges aren't always the best gauge, being human they may interpret law by their moral compass. I wonder what a major employer would say if an employee spoke out to customers regarding his/her political opinions. I suspect Mr. Facelift is within his legal right to dictate that his employees hold their politics for their personal time.

On the subject of appearance, years ago during a trip to Disney World one of the employees at the park explained that she was not an employee but a "character." She told us this was a way for Disney to be legally able to dictate their appearance: hair, body art and piercings, etc.
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mcnabbulous
post Oct 11 2017, 07:21 AM
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QUOTE (Zero @ Oct 11 2017, 05:29 AM) *
Regardless of where one stands politically on this, I always thought an employer could dictate some rules to the employees. I don't think appearance is one of them, even though the NFL does that regularly with impunity, but I wonder how this will flow. Judges aren't always the best gauge, being human they may interpret law by their moral compass. I wonder what a major employer would say if an employee spoke out to customers regarding his/her political opinions. I suspect Mr. Facelift is within his legal right to dictate that his employees hold their politics for their personal time.

This has nothing to do with politics.
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CT_Eagle
post Oct 11 2017, 08:05 AM
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QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 11 2017, 06:18 AM) *
Let’s see if we can have a conversation that wont get sent to the G&G...

In response to Pence’s show in Indy this past week, and after taking a knee with his team a few weeks ago in response to trumps ‘sons of bitches’ comment... Jerry has thrown down an ultimatum to his team that anybody who doesn’t stand for the anthem, “will not play.”

However you feel about the greater discussion is irrelevant here. I’m asking your thoughts about what the players might be thinking leading up to this Sunday. I caught a story about some major organized labor group (forget which) filing suit against Jones for violating labor laws. And Schefter was on ESPN saying the perception is “the administration is trolling the league.”

This should be fascinating.



A few comments and I too will keep the politics out of it.

I have no idea what the players are thinking or what they may do in light of Jones' statement.

There is a huge disconnect between the players and a significant percentage of the population. The players are making a stand (or kneel) to draw attention to primarily the police shootings. Many in the population at large do not have a problem with the message and even agree that there is an issue that needs to be addressed. However, they do have a problem with the way the message is being delivered. They perceive kneeling during the anthem as being disrespectful. Kaepernick did not help in this regard when he specifically brought the flag into the debate when he started his protests.

Jerry Jones issued a threat that he may not be able to back up. What is he going to do if all 53 Cowboys take a knee? How about if it is just Prescott, Elliot and Bryant taking a knee? Is he really in a position to enforce his policy?

I believe the suit was filed by the NAACP. Don't quote me on that. I quickly went through an article on this and I may have the organization wrong. In any event, I do not think the suit will get very far. The Supreme Court has already ruled in the past that the first amendment does not cover you in the workplace. In short, you do not have the right to protest on your employer's dime.
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HobbEs
post Oct 11 2017, 08:34 AM
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I heard on ESPN (so take it for what it's worth) last week that the principle of Kaepernick taking a knee was not to protest the flag, but to say that we as a country are not living up to the flag's standards. Taken in that context I totally agree. What happened afterwards is a media shit storm.

Also, is there any clear cut winner in this mess? Yes, there is: The media. And now that the White House is involved this is a reporter's wet dream.

Just my $0.02.
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Dreagon
post Oct 11 2017, 08:35 AM
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Don't forget, there are also local considerations involved.

Jerry owns a team with one of the more conservative fanbases, which is probably what brought on that attempt of his in Arizona to pointedly make it not about the flag. Personally I thought the idea was doomed... and sure enough, all it created was an image of him kneeling with all his players. Guess how well that went over down here. He is a businessman first, and he now has ticket holders to appease.
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CT_Eagle
post Oct 11 2017, 08:39 AM
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QUOTE (HobbEs @ Oct 11 2017, 02:34 PM) *
I heard on ESPN (so take it for what it's worth) last week that the principle of Kaepernick taking a knee was not to protest the flag, but to say that we as a country are not living up to the flag's standards. Taken in that context I totally agree. What happened afterwards is a media shit storm.

Also, is there any clear cut winner in this mess? Yes, there is: The media. And now that the White House is involved this is a reporter's wet dream.

Just my $0.02.



This is a direct quote from Kapernick:

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color"

Very had to reconcile that statement with "the principle of Kaepernick taking a knee was not to protest the flag".
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mcnabbulous
post Oct 11 2017, 09:00 AM
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QUOTE (Dreagon @ Oct 11 2017, 08:35 AM) *
Don't forget, there are also local considerations involved.

Jerry owns a team with one of the more conservative fanbases, which is probably what brought on that attempt of his in Arizona to pointedly make it not about the flag. Personally I thought the idea was doomed... and sure enough, all it created was an image of him kneeling with all his players. Guess how well that went over down here. He is a businessman first, and he now has ticket holders to appease.

The irony about Texans is that they are outraged by Kaepernick's "disrespect for the flag" but loudly declare their desire to secede. What a bunch of frauds.
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CT_Eagle
post Oct 11 2017, 09:08 AM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 11 2017, 03:00 PM) *
The irony about Texans is that they are outraged by Kaepernick's "disrespect for the flag" but loudly declare their desire to secede. What a bunch of frauds.


And there goes the civility in the thread. Congrats McNabbulous.
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mcnabbulous
post Oct 11 2017, 09:13 AM
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QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Oct 11 2017, 09:08 AM) *
And there goes the civility in the thread. Congrats McNabbulous.

How isn't that civil? I live here. It's a fact.
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CT_Eagle
post Oct 11 2017, 09:18 AM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 11 2017, 03:13 PM) *
How isn't that civil? I live here. It's a fact.



Calling the population of an entire state "frauds" is uncivil. If you cannot see that, there is really nothing more to say.
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D Rock
post Oct 11 2017, 09:19 AM
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Pointing to obvious and clear hypocrisy is only seen as a loss of civility by hypocrites. That’s not politics. That’s logic, which ionically is another concept lost on the many Texans.


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mcnabbulous
post Oct 11 2017, 09:20 AM
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QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Oct 11 2017, 09:18 AM) *
Calling the population of an entire state "frauds" is uncivil. If you cannot see that, there is really nothing more to say.

No, just the ones that criticize Kaepernick in one breath, while proclaiming a desire to secede in another. It's about 60% of them.

And I've earned the right to do so by living in said state for 8 years.
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D Rock
post Oct 11 2017, 09:27 AM
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QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Oct 11 2017, 02:39 PM) *
This is a direct quote from Kapernick:

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color"

Very had to reconcile that statement with "the principle of Kaepernick taking a knee was not to protest the flag".

No. It’s not hard to reconcile that at all. There are shades of grey in the real world.


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CT_Eagle
post Oct 11 2017, 09:29 AM
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QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 11 2017, 03:19 PM) *
Pointing to obvious and clear hypocrisy is only seen as a loss of civility by hypocrites. That’s not politics. That’s logic, which ionically is another concept lost on the many Texans.



You two are better than this. It was a broad characterization meant to be an insult. The population of Texas is not a monolith. There are plenty of Texans who support the message behind the protests. Among those supporters are those that do not like the method being used. There are Texans that disagree with the message and the method. The majority of Texans do not want to leave the union. Why paint the entire state with a single broad brush?
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D Rock
post Oct 11 2017, 09:32 AM
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QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Oct 11 2017, 03:29 PM) *
You two are better than this. It was a broad characterization meant to be an insult. The population of Texas is not a monolith. There are plenty of Texans who support the message behind the protests. Among those supporters are those that do not like the method being used. There are Texans that disagree with the message and the method. The majority of Texans do not want to leave the union. Why paint the entire state with a single broad brush?

I didn’t realize you were such an authority on Texans. They voted for Rick Perry. Nuff said.


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CT_Eagle
post Oct 11 2017, 09:32 AM
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QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 11 2017, 03:27 PM) *
No. It’s not hard to reconcile that at all. There are shades of grey in the real world.


Your opinion is a shade as well as mine.

Spend some time listening to what those opposed to the protests are saying and you will find a lot of people who support the message but not the delivery. They are one shade of the grey you reference.
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CT_Eagle
post Oct 11 2017, 09:34 AM
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QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 11 2017, 03:32 PM) *
I didn’t realize you were such an authority on Texans.


It takes an authority to realize that a population consisting of millions of people will have a wide array of views on a controversial topic? Who knew?
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D Rock
post Oct 11 2017, 09:34 AM
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QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Oct 11 2017, 03:32 PM) *
Your opinion is a shade as well as mine.

Spend some time listening to what those opposed to the protests are saying and you will find a lot of people who support the message but not the delivery. They are one shade of the grey you reference.

I hear that. But in a free society, we don’t get to chose how others exercise their rights.


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D Rock
post Oct 11 2017, 09:36 AM
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QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Oct 11 2017, 03:34 PM) *
It takes an authority to realize that a population consisting of millions of people will have a wide array of views on a controversial topic? Who knew?

So too a group of millions will inevitably show its collective nature over the course of generations. Imagine that.


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mcnabbulous
post Oct 11 2017, 09:37 AM
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QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Oct 11 2017, 09:29 AM) *
You two are better than this. It was a broad characterization meant to be an insult. The population of Texas is not a monolith. There are plenty of Texans who support the message behind the protests. Among those supporters are those that do not like the method being used. There are Texans that disagree with the message and the method. The majority of Texans do not want to leave the union. Why paint the entire state with a single broad brush?

Literally 60% of Texans said they wanted to secede if Hillary was elected president.
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CT_Eagle
post Oct 11 2017, 09:39 AM
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QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 11 2017, 03:36 PM) *
So too a group of millions will inevitably show its collective nature over the course of generations. Imagine that.


And applying a broad brush will still be inaccurate no matter how many generations pass.
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CT_Eagle
post Oct 11 2017, 09:40 AM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 11 2017, 03:37 PM) *
Literally 60% of Texans said they wanted to secede if Hillary was elected president.


For the sake argument let's just use your 60% number. Are the other 40% frauds? That is what you posted.
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CT_Eagle
post Oct 11 2017, 09:44 AM
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QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 11 2017, 03:34 PM) *
I hear that. But in a free society, we don’t get to chose how others exercise their rights.


We live in a free society and we as a society routinely chose how others exercise their rights.

Using the subject of this thread, private employees do not have the right to free speech when on company time.

Using another example, I as a landowner do not have the right to develop my land as I see fit if it has been declared a wetland.
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mcnabbulous
post Oct 11 2017, 09:46 AM
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QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Oct 11 2017, 09:40 AM) *
For the sake argument let's just use your 60% number. Are the other 40% frauds? That is what you posted.


I also said this...

QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 11 2017, 09:20 AM) *
No, just the ones that criticize Kaepernick in one breath, while proclaiming a desire to secede in another. It's about 60% of them.

And I've earned the right to do so by living in said state for 8 years.


By living here, I know plenty of Texans that don't think that way. Many of which are Cowboy fans. So I've been pretty clear on the point.

My intention wasn't to strike up some huge drama with that post. It was to call the hypocritical frauds for what they are.
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CT_Eagle
post Oct 11 2017, 09:50 AM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 11 2017, 03:46 PM) *
I also said this...



By living here, I know plenty of Texans that don't think that way. Many of which are Cowboy fans. So I've been pretty clear on the point.

My intention wasn't to strike up some huge drama with that post. It was to call the hypocritical frauds for what they are.



You said that after my initial response to you making your blanket statement. Forgive me for not foreseeing that you would further broaden your position in subsequent posts.

BTW, I did a quick search on your 60% number. The polls I found stated that 60% of Trump supporters would favor TX seceding if Clinton won. That is not the same thing as 60% of Texans. Perhaps there is another poll that I am unaware of. The one I found specifically stated Trump supporters.
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post Oct 11 2017, 09:52 AM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 11 2017, 12:21 PM) *
This has nothing to do with politics.

Of course it's about politics. In fact, it's political and racial purely.

There's a deepening divide on both of those fronts, and it is manifesting itself almost in perfect, poetic metaphor in this scenario.

Many people like me see this development that distinctly begun clarifying as a nationalistic movement, which spawns real life concerns for those of us who are minorities. None clearer than when the President drew the line in the sand. Not that there was a whole lot of doubt to many of us, but that was a declaration lest anyone still be confused.

I'm not sure it's irreversible now, really.


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mcnabbulous
post Oct 11 2017, 10:01 AM
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QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Oct 11 2017, 09:50 AM) *
You said that after my initial response to you making your blanket statement. Forgive me for not foreseeing that you would further broaden your position in subsequent posts.


Well, if you couldn't deduce that I wasn't calling 100% of Texans frauds, given that I live here...then I'm not sure how I can help you with this one.
QUOTE
BTW, I did a quick search on your 60% number. The polls I found stated that 60% of Trump supporters would favor TX seceding if Clinton won. That is not the same thing as 60% of Texans. Perhaps there is another poll that I am unaware of. The one I found specifically stated Trump supporters.

But fair point, 60% of Trump supporters. Whatever the number. Those are the hypocrites I'm referring to. And there is a significant number of them. That would be 2.8M people given the circumstances, which is greater than the population of 14 states.
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Phits
post Oct 11 2017, 10:02 AM
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My issue with the kneeling protest is that the attention has moved from the actual cause. The chosen method of protest has offended a number of citizens, as a result, the media has allowed the conversation to move from the intended discussion. I feel that Kap's absence is cowardly. As the harbinger for the protest, he has (seemingly) taken a backseat and allowed the shitstorm to unravel without providing a voice for its direction.

There are a number of people that have decided to hitch their trailer to the discussion simply because they have disdain for #45. It's annoying because the actual discussion that is necessary is STILL not happening.

Just my 2 cents.


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mcnabbulous
post Oct 11 2017, 10:02 AM
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QUOTE (Pila @ Oct 11 2017, 09:52 AM) *
Of course it's about politics. In fact, it's political and racial purely.

It's only political if one side is taking responsibility for the oppression and murders of unarmed citizens. Lets not forget what presidency these "protests" started under.

This is about systemic oppression, politics aside.
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Pila
post Oct 11 2017, 10:10 AM
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QUOTE (Phits @ Oct 11 2017, 03:02 PM) *
My issue with the kneeling protest is that the attention has moved from the actual cause. The chosen method of protest has offended a number of citizens, as a result, the media has allowed the conversation to move from the intended discussion. I feel that Kap's absence is cowardly. As the harbinger for the protest, he has (seemingly) taken a backseat and allowed the shitstorm to unravel without providing a voice for its direction.

There are a number of people that have decided to hitch their trailer to the discussion simply because they have disdain for #45. It's annoying because the actual discussion that is necessary is STILL not happening.

Just my 2 cents.

No, I think it has. Malcolm Jenkins certainly has not let it die. He brings it up at every opportunity in his interviews. But you are also correct - this has spawned to much more. It has served to clarify a political movement with racial and cultural undertakings.


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Pila
post Oct 11 2017, 10:14 AM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 11 2017, 03:02 PM) *
It's only political if one side is taking responsibility for the oppression and murders of unarmed citizens. Lets not forget what presidency these "protests" started under.

This is about systemic oppression, politics aside.

I'm not sure that would be the only way to make it political. I don't see the two to be mutually exclusive. The suppression certainly seems to be manifesting itself politically.


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CT_Eagle
post Oct 11 2017, 10:16 AM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 11 2017, 03:01 PM) *
Well, if you couldn't deduce that I wasn't calling 100% of Texans frauds, given that I live here...then I'm not sure how I can help you with this one.

How could I in light of your 2nd response to me? You made no attempt to clarify your first statement and actually doubled-down on it.
QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 11 2017, 02:13 PM) *
How isn't that civil? I live here. It's a fact.


QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 11 2017, 03:01 PM) *
But fair point, 60% of Trump supporters. Whatever the number. Those are the hypocrites I'm referring to. And there is a significant number of them. That would be 2.8M people given the circumstances, which is greater than the population of 14 states.


Wether or not this number is greater than the population of 14 states is irrelevant. 60% of Trump supporters in TX is well below half of the population of TX. This right here is a perfect example of why broad brush statements such as the one you made should be avoided. Your statement, according to the number you provided, covered 2.8 million people out of a population of 28.4 million. That is 10% of the population.
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post Oct 11 2017, 10:20 AM
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QUOTE (Pila @ Oct 11 2017, 11:10 AM) *
No, I think it has. Malcolm Jenkins certainly has not let it die. He brings it up at every opportunity in his interviews. But you are also correct - this has spawned to much more. It has served to clarify a political movement with racial and cultural undertakings.


I really like Phits' take on this. The discussion, an important one was/is hijacked because the original messenger is a fraud. He has made a bad situation worse. Add to that the media twisting the actions for their own profits. They don't cover the issue as much as the action. The players don't help because, much like religion, people don't like something shoved down their throats. Then there is the hypocrisy of players protesting for one issue while ignoring other, more glaring, destructive issues currently affecting the inner city. How one can protest so vehemently for the actions of a few bad cops and painting the entire police enforcement in doing so while ignoring what is happening in a city like Chicago is mindboggling to most people or at least those with common sense.

That is the real problem and the real disconnect.


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CT_Eagle
post Oct 11 2017, 10:27 AM
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QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 11 2017, 04:20 PM) *
I really like Phits' take on this. The discussion, an important one was/is hijacked because the original messenger is a fraud. He has made a bad situation worse. Add to that the media twisting the actions for their own profits. They don't cover the issue as much as the action. The players don't help because, much like religion, people don't like something shoved down their throats. Then there is the hypocrisy of players protesting for one issue while ignoring other, more glaring, destructive issues currently affecting the inner city. How one can protest so vehemently for the actions of a few bad cops and painting the entire police enforcement in doing so while ignoring what is happening in a city like Chicago is mindboggling to most people or at least those with common sense.

That is the real problem and the real disconnect.


Agreed.

This is exactly what I was referring to when I referenced a disconnect in my first post in this thread.

If I had to make a guess I would estimate that roughly 90% of the coverage over the last couple of weeks has focused on who was kneeling, Pence leaving and Trump's statement. The remaining 10% has focused on the actual reasons behind the protests.
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post Oct 11 2017, 10:32 AM
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QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 11 2017, 03:20 PM) *
I really like Phits' take on this. The discussion, an important one was/is hijacked because the original messenger is a fraud. He has made a bad situation worse. Add to that the media twisting the actions for their own profits. They don't cover the issue as much as the action. The players don't help because, much like religion, people don't like something shoved down their throats. Then there is the hypocrisy of players protesting for one issue while ignoring other, more glaring, destructive issues currently affecting the inner city. How one can protest so vehemently for the actions of a few bad cops and painting the entire police enforcement in doing so while ignoring what is happening in a city like Chicago is mindboggling to most people or at least those with common sense.

That is the real problem and the real disconnect.

The protesting of one issue doesn't negate any other issues that exist. That's a false dichtomy. If I'm concerned about cancer it doesn't mean i'm not concerned about heart disease too.

I'd also propose that at the root of much of the disenfranchisement of the inner cities lie in past policies that are being terrifyingly reinforced today, i.e. the militarization of the police force, the war on drugs, and that of search and seizure programs once thought of as offensive to the very idea of a free society.


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mcnabbulous
post Oct 11 2017, 10:37 AM
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QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Oct 11 2017, 10:16 AM) *
Wether or not this number is greater than the population of 14 states is irrelevant. 60% of Trump supporters in TX is well below half of the population of TX. This right here is a perfect example of why broad brush statements such as the one you made should be avoided. Your statement, according to the number you provided, covered 2.8 million people out of a population of 28.4 million. That is 10% of the population.

I was very clearly talking about the Texans that want to secede. As a Texan who doesn't want to secede, naturally I wouldn't be talking about all Texans.

So if it's 10% of the population (a greater portion of the adult population), my point still stands. Those that vocally object to Kaepernick, but have desires to secede are frauds. As are those that drive around with Confederate flags on their car and talk about disrespecting the US Flag.

You can get hung up on the semantics all you want.
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post Oct 11 2017, 10:38 AM
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QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 11 2017, 10:20 AM) *
Then there is the hypocrisy of players protesting for one issue while ignoring other, more glaring, destructive issues currently affecting the inner city.

You don't get to decide what is important to people. This isn't about the inner city.

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post Oct 11 2017, 10:50 AM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 11 2017, 03:37 PM) *
I was very clearly talking about the Texans that want to secede. As a Texan who doesn't want to secede, naturally I wouldn't be talking about all Texans.

So if it's 10% of the population (a greater portion of the adult population), my point still stands. Those that vocally object to Kaepernick, but have desires to secede are frauds. As are those that drive around with Confederate flags on their car and talk about disrespecting the US Flag.

You can get hung up on the semantics all you want.



You may have thought you communicated clearly, but you did not. You used a broad brush to paint Texans as frauds. As it turns out, your statement covered roughly 10% of the population of TX. You can either recognize that making such broad brush statements is not an effective way of communicating your opinion or you can carry on making assumptions about how others will receive those broad brush statements. For me, I try to avoid them for the reasons I stated.
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mcnabbulous
post Oct 11 2017, 11:04 AM
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QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Oct 11 2017, 10:50 AM) *
You may have thought you communicated clearly, but you did not.

No, I thought people were capable of critical thinking. My mistake. Won't let it happen again.
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CT_Eagle
post Oct 11 2017, 11:14 AM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 11 2017, 04:04 PM) *
No, I thought people were capable of critical thinking. My mistake. Won't let it happen again.


I mean this in all honesty. You should take a public speaking course that focuses on the challenges speakers have clearly communicating what is in their head to their audience. That class was probably one of the most useful classes I ever took in college. It was eye opening regarding the number of varied opinions received from a group of 25 people regarding what you thought was clearly said to them.

Of course such a course would be useless if you are too pompous and arrogant to realize that the fault is not with the audience when it comes to miscommunication.
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post Oct 11 2017, 11:20 AM
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It'd be a shame if a Dallas player knelt on Sunday because I'd really hate to have to respect a Dallas Cowboys player
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mcnabbulous
post Oct 11 2017, 11:43 AM
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QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Oct 11 2017, 11:14 AM) *
I mean this in all honesty. You should take a public speaking course that focuses on the challenges speakers have clearly communicating what is in their head to their audience. That class was probably one of the most useful classes I ever took in college. It was eye opening regarding the number of varied opinions received from a group of 25 people regarding what you thought was clearly said to them.

Of course such a course would be useless if you are too pompous and arrogant to realize that the fault is not with the audience when it comes to miscommunication.

I very clearly clarified my point in my 3rd post. "No, just the ones that criticize Kaepernick in one breath, while proclaiming a desire to secede in another. It's about 60% of them."

And yet here we still are. So have you considered the possibility that you're hung up on something very stupid?

As I said, I was very clearly talking about Texans that want to secede. I live in Texas, so it would make no sense for me to be painting all Texans with a very broad brush, because I and most of the people I know don't fit into that category. I don't know how more clearly I can articulate this to you.

So yes, at this point I believe this is not a communication issue. You either suffer from critical thinking issues or are being intentionally obtuse. You can try to find a college course related to either of those disciplines if you wish.



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post Oct 11 2017, 11:57 AM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 11 2017, 05:43 PM) *
I very clearly clarified my point in my 3rd post. "No, just the ones that criticize Kaepernick in one breath, while proclaiming a desire to secede in another. It's about 60% of them."

And yet here we still are. So have you considered the possibility that you're hung up on something very stupid?

As I said, I was very clearly talking about Texans that want to secede. I live in Texas, so it would make no sense for me to be painting all Texans with a very broad brush, because I and most of the people I know don't fit into that category. I don't know how more clearly I can articulate this to you.

So yes, at this point I believe this is not a communication issue. You either suffer from critical thinking issues or are being intentionally obtuse. You can try to find a college course related to either of those disciplines if you wish.



Of course you did. No argument there. I even acknowledged in a reply to you that you did eventually clarify your position in a subsequent post. Did you miss that post? For the 2nd time in this thread I will clarify, I am referencing your first two responses. Why do you keep trying to change the subject to your later posts? It seems you want to ignore the posts that I am discussing. Why is that?

I sense that you are becoming frustrated and angry. Might I suggest you focus on what I am responding to and not what you wish I would respond to? Just to clarify for a 3rd time, I am discussing your first two posts when I make references to broad based statements. Your posts after your first two are actually quite clear and I thank you for eventually getting around to making those clarifications. For your clarification, I would like to add that my comment regarding broad brush statements are not directed to any of your posts after the 2nd one.

Where did you take that course on being obtuse?
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post Oct 11 2017, 12:11 PM
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QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Oct 11 2017, 11:57 AM) *
Of course you did.

So why are you still talking about it? It's almost as if you're trying to stir shit up for no good reason.

Like I said, I live in Texas. If I didn't, it would be more likely that I would make incorrect assumptions about the entire population. As a Texan, I can comfortably speak on behalf of the Texas population.

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post Oct 11 2017, 12:20 PM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 11 2017, 05:11 PM) *
So why are you still talking about it? It's almost as if you're trying to stir shit up for no good reason.

Like I said, I live in Texas. If I didn't, it would be more likely that I would make incorrect assumptions about the entire population. As a Texan, I can comfortably speak on behalf of the Texas population.



Read the thread. Your the one that keeps bringing it up. Even I after I acknowledged the clarifications you made you responded. Do you remember me posting this?

QUOTE
You said that after my initial response to you making your blanket statement. Forgive me for not foreseeing that you would further broaden your position in subsequent posts.

BTW, I did a quick search on your 60% number. The polls I found stated that 60% of Trump supporters would favor TX seceding if Clinton won. That is not the same thing as 60% of Texans. Perhaps there is another poll that I am unaware of. The one I found specifically stated Trump supporters.


What was your response?

QUOTE
Well, if you couldn't deduce that I wasn't calling 100% of Texans frauds, given that I live here...then I'm not sure how I can help you with this one.


I acknowledged your clarification but that was not good enough for you.
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post Oct 11 2017, 12:29 PM
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QUOTE (Pila @ Oct 11 2017, 11:32 AM) *
The protesting of one issue doesn't negate any other issues that exist. That's a false dichtomy. If I'm concerned about cancer it doesn't mean i'm not concerned about heart disease too.

I'd also propose that at the root of much of the disenfranchisement of the inner cities lie in past policies that are being terrifyingly reinforced today, i.e. the militarization of the police force, the war on drugs, and that of search and seizure programs once thought of as offensive to the very idea of a free society.


I disagree. It goes to credibility. "I really care about a few isolated instances of bad cop shootings but I also care about inner city violence that is off the charts but something I am not going to protest in public" is a pretty shitty position if you want John Q, Public to take notice.


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post Oct 11 2017, 12:30 PM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 11 2017, 11:02 AM) *
Lets not forget what presidency these "protests" started under.


Umm, Obama?



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post Oct 11 2017, 12:31 PM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 11 2017, 11:38 AM) *
You don't get to decide what is important to people. This isn't about the inner city.


And they don't get to decide how people perceive their message and how much offense is taken....it is a 2 way street.

And to say it is not about the inner city is beyond naive. Talk to cops and find out what areas they are on edge about when making traffic stops and where most crime takes place.


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post Oct 11 2017, 12:32 PM
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QUOTE (The Franchise @ Oct 11 2017, 12:30 PM) *
Umm, Obama?

Correct. Which is why I don't believe this is a political issue, rather a systemic one. Both political sides have plenty of blames for the issues that these players are trying to bring to light.

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post Oct 11 2017, 12:36 PM
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Roger Goodell is scrambling to make it a new rule, even though technically you could argue it is one. I highly doubt it will get as far as Jerry Jones having to bench one, two, or 53 players (though that would kick ass).

Just to reiterate my position - Kaep lost his job to Blaine Gabbert, and decided to draw attention to himself. Chip Kelly, Jed York, and Goodell handled this in absolutely the worst way possible, by pretending it didn't exist. The media, naturally, made Kaep 'Man of the Year,' and the owners decided to blackball him in silence during the offseason. Now you have a situation where a bunch of whiny, entitled millionaires can safely grandstand, knowing they will be called heroes as well. Their 'protest' is far closer to cowardice than courage.

But now, you have a president who decided to take on the NFL and the media. A few weeks later, here we are - the commissioner scrambling to end this, Jones doing his thing, Al Sharpton and the Grievance Brigade sending in the cavalry, NFL ratings and attendance dropping, etc.

Before Sunday the NFL will make it a rule that you have to stand, just my hunch. It's perfectly within their rights to do so. And Trump will take to Twitter and give himself a well deserved pat on the back, for successfully trolling the shit out of the entire sports world.

Jolly good fun.


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mcnabbulous
post Oct 11 2017, 12:39 PM
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QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 11 2017, 12:31 PM) *
And they don't get to decide how people perceive their message and how much offense is taken....it is a 2 way street.

I don't think they're trying to decide how people perceive it. They're trying to clarify what they are demonstrating for. Malcolm is doing a fantastic job as a representative for that.

QUOTE
And to say it is not about the inner city is beyond naive. Talk to cops and find out what areas they are on edge about when making traffic stops and where most crime takes place.

The issues these people are trying to bring awareness to are not specific to the inner city.

It's not city vs. suburbs vs. country. It's not republican vs. democrat. It's systemic. It happens everywhere to people of color. That's what this is about.

It's been made political by political opportunists. Lets not forget, it was a green beret who initially told Kaepernick that taking a knee was the respectful way to approach it. And he took that advise with an open mind.
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post Oct 11 2017, 12:56 PM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 11 2017, 01:39 PM) *
I don't think they're trying to decide how people perceive it. They're trying to clarify what they are demonstrating for. Malcolm is doing a fantastic job as a representative for that.


The issues these people are trying to bring awareness to are not specific to the inner city.

It's not city vs. suburbs vs. country. It's not republican vs. democrat. It's systemic. It happens everywhere to people of color. That's what this is about.

It's been made political by political opportunists. Lets not forget, it was a green beret who initially told Kaepernick that taking a knee was the respectful way to approach it. And he took that advise with an open mind.


First, I agree that Malcolm took the right approach. I don't agree with some of his statements but he has handled his "protest" the right way.

Second, we agree to disagree about the chicken and the egg argument. Things like stop and frisk in NYC did not start because black folks in upstate NY were a danger.

Here is an interesting study:
https://www.nij.gov/topics/law-enforcement/...ffic-stops.aspx

It adds context to much of the issue. I don't want to use the tired "some of my best friends are black" routine but I have always had a close and diverse group of friends so it is not like I grew up in or socialize in some lily white world. While I do not disgaree that there are issues in the past that are very distasteful where are are today has been grossly misrepresented and the media has helped put a huge crater in our progress and set things back many years.


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post Oct 11 2017, 02:19 PM
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QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 11 2017, 01:56 PM) *
First, I agree that Malcolm took the right approach. I don't agree with some of his statements but he has handled his "protest" the right way.

Second, we agree to disagree about the chicken and the egg argument. Things like stop and frisk in NYC did not start because black folks in upstate NY were a danger.

Here is an interesting study:
https://www.nij.gov/topics/law-enforcement/...ffic-stops.aspx

It adds context to much of the issue. I don't want to use the tired "some of my best friends are black" routine but I have always had a close and diverse group of friends so it is not like I grew up in or socialize in some lily white world. While I do not disgaree that there are issues in the past that are very distasteful where are are today has been grossly misrepresented and the media has helped put a huge crater in our progress and set things back many years.


Was it the media or the smartphone? The media has been the mouth piece, but the flood of bystander videos of what is actually happening on the streets is what blew this issue up, and rightfully so. You cannot deny that seeing what actually occurred in many places, both inner-city and small town, are not disturbing. How many times have we seen a police account of an incident blow up after a video emerges that does not fit their narrative. Just yesterday a cop of 27 years was fired when the video of him body slamming a nurse into a wall and roughly handling her all the way to his car for not following his unlawful order to draw blood from a seriously injured man who was not even a suspect in a crime is a perfect example. BTW, she was white, so this has little to do with race and a whole lot more to do with abuse of power. I don't think anyone wants to live in a police state, and I think a lot of non-white folks already feel like they do, and those of us who never experienced that feeling ought to empathize. RF, you say you have a diverse group of friends, have you ever asked any of you black friends if they have ever been pulled over for no real reason by a cop? I'm betting most would say yes, and more than once. Just some food for thought.
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Aquila
post Oct 11 2017, 02:28 PM
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QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 11 2017, 07:18 AM) *
Let’s see if we can have a conversation that wont get sent to the G&G...

So far so good.

Plenty of disagreement but all done in a refreshingly civil manner.


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Reality Fan
post Oct 11 2017, 02:31 PM
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QUOTE (Birdwatcher @ Oct 11 2017, 03:19 PM) *
Was it the media or the smartphone? The media has been the mouth piece, but the flood of bystander videos of what is actually happening on the streets is what blew this issue up, and rightfully so. You cannot deny that seeing what actually occurred in many places, both inner-city and small town, are not disturbing. How many times have we seen a police account of an incident blow up after a video emerges that does not fit their narrative. Just yesterday a cop of 27 years was fired when the video of him body slamming a nurse into a wall and roughly handling her all the way to his car for not following his unlawful order to draw blood from a seriously injured man who was not even a suspect in a crime is a perfect example. BTW, she was white, so this has little to do with race and a whole lot more to do with abuse of power. I don't think anyone wants to live in a police state, and I think a lot of non-white folks already feel like they do, and those of us who never experienced that feeling ought to empathize. RF, you say you have a diverse group of friends, have you ever asked any of you black friends if they have ever been pulled over for no real reason by a cop? I'm betting most would say yes, and more than once. Just some food for thought.


The smartphone has had its impact but the media shapes the narrative. The instance you spoke of was a white cop manhandling a white nurse. The mdia covers racial incidents with one tilt. How much did you see on CNN about the 3 black kids that brutalized a mentally challenged white kid and put it on facebook? It was here and gone in minutes. The media still quotes Ferguson even after the Obama DOJ, hungry for a pelt to nail to the wall, had to admit it was the kid who caused the shooting by attacking the cop.

Funny you asked about my friends...I have mentioned one before who is a community activist and he has never been pulled over except for speeding because he was, you know, speeding. Some of my friends have been arrersted, some served time and through all that I am familiar with only one who was pulled over for "nothing". He was let go and they told him they were on alert for something or other. I cited a study from NIJ that indicates, after much input from multiple studies, that context has a lot to do about stops and arrest.


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mcnabbulous
post Oct 11 2017, 02:41 PM
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To the original point, I'm somewhat surprised that some owner hasn't signed Kaepernick for the long-term potential benefits that directly contrast with Jerry's approach.

If, say, Lurie positioned himself as the player's owner...doesn't that make us a more attractive FA destination in the future? While there may be some immediate backlash from fans, I suspect it would be very short lived (see: Vick).

It may, however, lead to players wanting to play in Philly. For this owner. For this organization. And any fans that leave would likely come back as the team is attracting top-tier players on a yearly basis.

It may not be necessary in a market like Philly, but some team that has a tougher time attracting FAs could reasonably take advantage of the opportunity.
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Pila
post Oct 11 2017, 02:49 PM
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QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 11 2017, 05:29 PM) *
I disagree. It goes to credibility. "I really care about a few isolated instances of bad cop shootings but I also care about inner city violence that is off the charts but something I am not going to protest in public" is a pretty shitty position if you want John Q, Public to take notice.

Look, we've been here yakking to eachother a long time. I've long ago come to terms that life is about human connection. I've seen the most of trivial things cost the sacrifice of humanity without the slightest thought ot hesitation, so it does me or anyone any good to be offended or outraged by what you're suggesting. Which is the proposition that one's cause for legitimate, social grievance hinges on some other non sequitur. In this case, a family has no legitimate grievance with how the state treats them because they have their own domestic situation to work out.

I would hope you'd reconsider that position.


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D Rock
post Oct 11 2017, 03:02 PM
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QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 11 2017, 06:29 PM) *
I disagree. It goes to credibility. "I really care about a few isolated instances of bad cop shootings but I also care about inner city violence that is off the charts but something I am not going to protest in public" is a pretty shitty position if you want John Q, Public to take notice.

“A few isolated instances?”

C’Mon Man.


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D Rock
post Oct 11 2017, 03:11 PM
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There has been much said in this thread re: the media’s culpability in perverting the narrative.

But, not a word about the potus and his administration. I agree with Schefter who said the administration is “trolling the league.”

Can we all agree that this has nothing to do with the flag and anthem? Can we agree the players intent is not to disparage the military?

The president continues to use that specious language and inserted himself and his nationalistic zynophobic slant into all of this. This is precisely why Jones has delivered this new ultimatum to his players. “Stand or don’t play.”

Jeeq hit the nail on the head. We may have to find some place in our hearts to respect the hated cowboys players if they exhibit the balls required to stand up to their boss.

With regards to any employee not having the right to speech while on the job, that is false. They maintain the right to speak freely, but the employer then can exercise his/her right to terminate the professional relationship. Nobody said excercising freedom is garaunteed to be consequence free.

It’ll be fascinating to see what Jones does if Dak, or Dez decides to challenge him on this.

That is the theater to which I initially referred.

On a personal note, it’s because I’m white that I can afford to see this as theater. My kids, who have darker skin than I, are not afforded the same.


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Birdwatcher
post Oct 11 2017, 03:13 PM
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QUOTE (Pila @ Oct 11 2017, 03:49 PM) *
Look, we've been here yakking to eachother a long time. I've long ago come to terms that life is about human connection. I've seen the most of trivial things cost the sacrifice of humanity without the slightest thought ot hesitation, so it does me or anyone any good to be offended or outraged by what you're suggesting. Which is the proposition that one's cause for legitimate, social grievance hinges on some other non sequitur. In this case, a family has no legitimate grievance with how the state treats them because they have their own domestic situation to work out.

I would hope you'd reconsider that position.


It's called a logical fallacy, and the problem with most arguments these days are that logic has been trumped by belief. These days, when beliefs are challenged, the points that challenge them are attacked, rather than addressing the root cause of the problem. If you kneel during the anthem then you disrespect our country is not a supportable argument, but it sure does have legs, because that is what some people BELIEVE. Our country was built on the idea that diverse beliefs could work together for common cause, but the current environment has devolved into a war about who is right and who is wrong. Real answer, both and neither. Until we realize that, we will be yakking in circles instead of actually finding a compromise that everyone can live with.

You can please all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but never all the people all the time...or something along those lines.
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CT_Eagle
post Oct 11 2017, 03:22 PM
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QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 11 2017, 09:02 PM) *
“A few isolated instances?”

C’Mon Man.


I have no idea what RF considers "a few". I do think it would be beneficial to the current discussion to put some numbers on what we are talking about.

These numbers from this link.

The article states that 258 black people were killed by the police in 2016. Of these 39 were unarmed.

4 were killed by stun guns, 9 died while in custody and 232 were shot and killed. I know the numbers do not add up. I am just repeating what was in the article.

These numbers are offered without commentary. I just thought it would serve the discussion if we all knew how many people we are talking about.
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CT_Eagle
post Oct 11 2017, 03:32 PM
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QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 11 2017, 09:11 PM) *
There has been much said in this thread re: the media’s culpability in perverting the narrative.

But, not a word about the potus and his administration. I agree with Schefter who said the administration is “trolling the league.”

Can we all agree that this has nothing to do with the flag and anthem? Can we agree the players intent is not to disparage the military?

The president continues to use that specious language and inserted himself and his nationalistic zynophobic slant into all of this. This is precisely why Jones has delivered this new ultimatum to his players. “Stand or don’t play.”

Jeeq hit the nail on the head. We may have to find some place in our hearts to respect the hated cowboys players if they exhibit the balls required to stand up to their boss.

With regards to any employee not having the right to speech while on the job, that is false. They maintain the right to speak freely, but the employer then can exercise his/her right to terminate the professional relationship. Nobody said excercising freedom is garaunteed to be consequence free.

It’ll be fascinating to see what Jones does if Dak, or Dez decides to challenge him on this.

That is the theater to which I initially referred.

On a personal note, it’s because I’m white that I can afford to see this as theater. My kids, who have darker skin than I, are not afforded the same.


I know I have tried to stay away from mentioning Trump or Pence in an effort to avoid turning this into a political discussion, per your request.

There have been several members who have agreed that the protests are not about the flag. I was one of them. I did make an exception for Kaepernick which we have already discussed.

With regards to free speech rights at work, agreed, you still retain your rights. As you pointed out, you are not free from the potential consequences. I made the point you just referenced in a post up thread and should have made it clearer. To add to this, the law in this regard is very different for public employees vs private employees. Public employees do enjoy some legal protection from the potential consequences.
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CT_Eagle
post Oct 11 2017, 03:44 PM
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QUOTE (Birdwatcher @ Oct 11 2017, 09:13 PM) *
It's called a logical fallacy, and the problem with most arguments these days are that logic has been trumped by belief. These days, when beliefs are challenged, the points that challenge them are attacked, rather than addressing the root cause of the problem. If you kneel during the anthem then you disrespect our country is not a supportable argument, but it sure does have legs, because that is what some people BELIEVE. Our country was built on the idea that diverse beliefs could work together for common cause, but the current environment has devolved into a war about who is right and who is wrong. Real answer, both and neither. Until we realize that, we will be yakking in circles instead of actually finding a compromise that everyone can live with.

You can please all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but never all the people all the time...or something along those lines.



Are you not using an opinion to bolster your argument?

You may not find the act of kneeling during the anthem to be disrespectful. Other people do find it offensive. Who is to say who is right? All that can be said is that the protesters have stated that they are not kneeling in order to disrespect the flag. I have no reason to doubt them. The other side has side that they find kneeling during the anthem to be disrespectful. I have no reason to doubt them either.
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Reality Fan
post Oct 11 2017, 03:48 PM
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QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 11 2017, 04:02 PM) *
“A few isolated instances?”

C’Mon Man.


The media palying up stories for ratings does not make the actual statistics go away. I realize that it is hard to accept but the numbers are what they are for every part of the debate. The problem is that some choose to ignore the actual facts of the situation. The hardest part of this debate is that for one side there is only their point and that makes compromise difficult if not impossible.


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Reality Fan
post Oct 11 2017, 03:57 PM
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QUOTE (Pila @ Oct 11 2017, 03:49 PM) *
Look, we've been here yakking to eachother a long time. I've long ago come to terms that life is about human connection. I've seen the most of trivial things cost the sacrifice of humanity without the slightest thought ot hesitation, so it does me or anyone any good to be offended or outraged by what you're suggesting. Which is the proposition that one's cause for legitimate, social grievance hinges on some other non sequitur. In this case, a family has no legitimate grievance with how the state treats them because they have their own domestic situation to work out.

I would hope you'd reconsider that position.


Again, I raise the credibility issue. The issue that raised this whole kerfuffle has been based on a lot of exaggeration of the cause. No ne debates whether there are bad cops out there or if there are some jurisdictions that have racial issues. The problem is that the entire country was painted with a ridiculously broad brush. That same brush ignores all the funding that "state" your refer to spends to help the aggrieved party. When a society has areas where ambulances or fire trucks or even garbagemen can't go without a police escort there is a serious problem. That many choose to ignore such issues is disappointing. It comes down to a matter of scratching one's head and wondering where the outrage is for serious issues when the outrage exists for situations that the statistical facts prove to be a remarkably rare occurrence regardless of color.


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Reality Fan
post Oct 11 2017, 04:00 PM
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QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Oct 11 2017, 04:22 PM) *
I have no idea what RF considers "a few". I do think it would be beneficial to the current discussion to put some numbers on what we are talking about.

These numbers from this link.

The article states that 258 black people were killed by the police in 2016. Of these 39 were unarmed.

4 were killed by stun guns, 9 died while in custody and 232 were shot and killed. I know the numbers do not add up. I am just repeating what was in the article.

These numbers are offered without commentary. I just thought it would serve the discussion if we all knew how many people we are talking about.


and meaningless without context...there is a database that has all the shootings and the situations. It also breaks down all the shootings of all races and whether they are armed, unarmed, etc and, spoiler alert...they are not all people of color.


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Reality Fan
post Oct 11 2017, 04:01 PM
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QUOTE (Birdwatcher @ Oct 11 2017, 04:13 PM) *
It's called a logical fallacy, and the problem with most arguments these days are that logic has been trumped by belief. These days, when beliefs are challenged, the points that challenge them are attacked, rather than addressing the root cause of the problem. If you kneel during the anthem then you disrespect our country is not a supportable argument, but it sure does have legs, because that is what some people BELIEVE. Our country was built on the idea that diverse beliefs could work together for common cause, but the current environment has devolved into a war about who is right and who is wrong. Real answer, both and neither. Until we realize that, we will be yakking in circles instead of actually finding a compromise that everyone can live with.

You can please all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but never all the people all the time...or something along those lines.


The problem lies in the words Kap used to explain why he knelt and that was clearly to disrespect the flag. The rest is guilt by association for those who do the same in support of him.

Pretty simple stuff.


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Zero
post Oct 11 2017, 04:18 PM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 11 2017, 11:02 AM) *
It's only political if one side is taking responsibility for the oppression and murders of unarmed citizens. Lets not forget what presidency these "protests" started under.

This is about systemic oppression, politics aside.

This wasn't supposed to go to G&G, but I think it's now doomed. I thought the idea was to talk about what was going to happen in Dallas considering Jones' seeming hypocritical position. Now it's something entirely different.

As to your quote, statistics and many influential, learned blacks just don't support that premise.

I am now checking out of the political debate because this is a football forum.
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mcnabbulous
post Oct 11 2017, 04:23 PM
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QUOTE (Zero @ Oct 11 2017, 04:18 PM) *
This wasn't supposed to go to G&G, but I think it's now doomed. I thought the idea was to talk about what was going to happen in Dallas considering Jones' seeming hypocritical position. Now it's something entirely different.

As to your quote, statistics and many influential, learned blacks just don't support that premise.

I am now checking out of the political debate because this is a football forum.

I think you seriously misinterpreted my post. I’m trying to be pretty clear that I don’t believe this to be a political issue.
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Birdwatcher
post Oct 11 2017, 04:25 PM
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QUOTE (CT_Eagle @ Oct 11 2017, 04:44 PM) *
Are you not using an opinion to bolster your argument?

You may not find the act of kneeling during the anthem to be disrespectful. Other people do find it offensive. Who is to say who is right? All that can be said is that the protesters have stated that they are not kneeling in order to disrespect the flag. I have no reason to doubt them. The other side has side that they find kneeling during the anthem to be disrespectful. I have no reason to doubt them either.


You just validated my argument too, because you basically said what I said. My reference to belief is valid, not saying they are wrong for believing what they choose, but for not allowing for the possibility that other viewpoints are valid because they don't agree with them. In instances like this there are multiple answers and it cannot be boxed in as it has, at least without invalidating the point in the first place, which is also the current result. What is right for me may not be right for you, but that can be OK if both sides agree to disagree and seek to find a common ground that is not offensive to either side. But this whole issue has been painted as black and white, but it is about as gray as it can get, and digging in to defend your opinion (and that is what this is all about) will never reach a sustainable conclusion.
If I were an owner I would suggest that teams take a knee before they play the anthem, and have the announcer state they are doing so to acknowledge that we need to work together to solve our societal problems, and then stand for the song. That would be a compromise that disconnects the issues and reinstates the original intention behind it.
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Zero
post Oct 11 2017, 04:29 PM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 11 2017, 05:23 PM) *
I think you seriously misinterpreted my post. I’m trying to be pretty clear that I don’t believe this to be a political issue.

If I misunderstood, I apologize.
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mcnabbulous
post Oct 11 2017, 04:40 PM
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QUOTE (Zero @ Oct 11 2017, 04:29 PM) *
If I misunderstood, I apologize.

My point was that unless we say one political party is to blame for the issues in question (which is quite simply not the case) then we can agree it’s an apolitical issue.

My opinion is that it’s only become political because of political opportunists.
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D Rock
post Oct 11 2017, 04:44 PM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 11 2017, 10:40 PM) *
My point was that unless we say one political party is to blame for the issues in question (which is quite simply not the case) then we can agree it’s an apolitical issue.

My opinion is that it’s only become political because of political opportunists.

To be clear, where policy is to blame for all that Kap and others are protesting starts with Bill Clinton’s administration, and it’s policies of selling excess military equipment to police forces at huge discounts, his policies of mandatory minimums, stop-n-frisk, 3 strikes, et al. Slick Willy tried to score bipartisan points by appearing tough on crime, and set us down this ruinous path.


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mcnabbulous
post Oct 11 2017, 04:49 PM
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QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 11 2017, 04:44 PM) *
To be clear, where policy is to blame for all that Kap and others are protesting starts with Bill Clinton’s administration, and it’s policies of selling excess military equipment to police forces at huge discounts, his policies of mandatory minimums, stop-n-frisk, 3 strikes, et al. Slick Willy tried to score bipartisan points by appearing tough on crime, and he set us down this ruinous path.

I don’t know if it starts there, but that certainly increased the issues. I think the Nixon war on drugs is a huge contributor to the situation. Both sides have very dirty hands.
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D Rock
post Oct 11 2017, 04:53 PM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Oct 11 2017, 10:49 PM) *
I don’t know if it starts there, but that certainly increased the issues. I think the Nixon war on drugs is a huge contributor to the situation. Both sides have very dirty hands.

Agreed re: Nixon/Reagan and the war on drugs. However, while that began the mass incarceration of minorities, the actual gestapo tactics and overt violence didn’t begin until Clinton. Clinton also wrought private federal prisons on the lexicon, which has been nothing short of a game changer as well.


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Phits
post Oct 11 2017, 07:05 PM
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QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 11 2017, 03:31 PM) *
Funny you asked about my friends...I have mentioned one before who is a community activist and he has never been pulled over except for speeding because he was, you know, speeding. Some of my friends have been arrersted, some served time and through all that I am familiar with only one who was pulled over for "nothing". He was let go and they told him they were on alert for something or other. I cited a study from NIJ that indicates, after much input from multiple studies, that context has a lot to do about stops and arrest.

You should tell your friends to play the lottery. They are a very lucky bunch.


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Pila
post Oct 11 2017, 09:01 PM
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QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Oct 11 2017, 09:57 PM) *
Again, I raise the credibility issue. The issue that raised this whole kerfuffle has been based on a lot of exaggeration of the cause. No ne debates whether there are bad cops out there or if there are some jurisdictions that have racial issues. The problem is that the entire country was painted with a ridiculously broad brush. That same brush ignores all the funding that "state" your refer to spends to help the aggrieved party. When a society has areas where ambulances or fire trucks or even garbagemen can't go without a police escort there is a serious problem. That many choose to ignore such issues is disappointing. It comes down to a matter of scratching one's head and wondering where the outrage is for serious issues when the outrage exists for situations that the statistical facts prove to be a remarkably rare occurrence regardless of color.

Fair enough. I'm gonna let this go on the virtue of your use of "kerfuffle" alone. I have no idea what that means, but you better believe it I'm gonna use it like I do!


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D Rock
post Oct 11 2017, 09:16 PM
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QUOTE (Phits @ Oct 12 2017, 01:05 AM) *
You should tell your friends to play the lottery. They are a very lucky bunch.

TRUTH!!!


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nephillymike
post Oct 11 2017, 09:45 PM
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I just read all 75 posts after mine.

All the opinions and it comes down to this:

The players are employees and if asked to not make political statements at their place of employment, they either do so or can have that employment terminated.

It is within Jones right to do so.

It will be upheld in any court and there will not be a right to severance or unemployment.

That part is a straightforward issue.

Now I would like to see a few Cowboys test Jones on this.....
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D Rock
post Oct 11 2017, 10:37 PM
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Easy there, Ripper.

The courts have set precedent that flies in the face of your assumption. Let’s not forget the tenuous grip on the anti-trust situation that the league is want to keep quiet.

Adding 1st amendment discussions into their very cushy sitch is the last thing they want. This isn’t motivated by ownership. Or Goodell. This is motivated by the bloviating wind bag in the White House.

I hope with every fiber of my being that the Daks and Dezs challenge this hilarity.

I would love to see Jerruhs hand forced to sit his beloved “employs.”

Seriously, this is a scenario that has the measuring stick out and we’re all going to get to see who has the biggest dick.


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Zero
post Oct 12 2017, 04:47 AM
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QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 11 2017, 11:37 PM) *
Easy there, Ripper.

The courts have set precedent that flies in the face of your assumption. Let’s not forget the tenuous grip on the anti-trust situation that the league is want to keep quiet.

Adding 1st amendment discussions into their very cushy sitch is the last thing they want. This isn’t motivated by ownership. Or Goodell. This is motivated by the bloviating wind bag in the White House.

I hope with every fiber of my being that the Daks and Dezs challenge this hilarity.

I would love to see Jerruhs hand forced to sit his beloved “employs.”

Seriously, this is a scenario that has the measuring stick out and we’re all going to get to see who has the biggest dick.

Are you suggesting that a cashier is perfectly within his/her rights to express political opinion to paying customers despite the boss telling them not to? And that the courts would protect them if they are terminated?
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nephillymike
post Oct 12 2017, 05:09 AM
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QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 11 2017, 10:37 PM) *
Easy there, Ripper.

The courts have set precedent that flies in the face of your assumption. Let’s not forget the tenuous grip on the anti-trust situation that the league is want to keep quiet.

Adding 1st amendment discussions into their very cushy sitch is the last thing they want. This isn’t motivated by ownership. Or Goodell. This is motivated by the bloviating wind bag in the White House.

I hope with every fiber of my being that the Daks and Dezs challenge this hilarity.

I would love to see Jerruhs hand forced to sit his beloved “employs.”

Seriously, this is a scenario that has the measuring stick out and we’re all going to get to see who has the biggest dick.

Cases please, where a private employer is required to allow his employees to make political/social or whatever statements during work hours.

Interesting timing on this in that my son just landed his first job after his graduation next spring. They are not permitted to list the insurance company he works for in his profile on social media to avoid any fallout from him saying something controversial on social media. He checked with some other class mates who have also signed on at other companies and that seems to be the norm. Jemelle Hill just got suspended for violating social media policies of ESPN.

I would be interested in cases striking down similar policies.
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Reality Fan
post Oct 12 2017, 08:25 AM
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QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 11 2017, 11:37 PM) *
Easy there, Ripper.

The courts have set precedent that flies in the face of your assumption. Let’s not forget the tenuous grip on the anti-trust situation that the league is want to keep quiet.

Adding 1st amendment discussions into their very cushy sitch is the last thing they want. This isn’t motivated by ownership. Or Goodell. This is motivated by the bloviating wind bag in the White House.

I hope with every fiber of my being that the Daks and Dezs challenge this hilarity.

I would love to see Jerruhs hand forced to sit his beloved “employs.”

Seriously, this is a scenario that has the measuring stick out and we’re all going to get to see who has the biggest dick.


You could not be more wrong. Remember one simple rule in the private sector....An employee may have a constitutional right to talk politics, but he has no constitutional right to be employed.
The private sector is much different from the public sector in that regard. There is no precedent that protects them. Do not confuse first amendment issues with anti discrimination laws which do not apply here.
Also, you allow your self denied but ever visible liberal bias to show on an issue that predates the guy in the White House who only made it a bit more visible. You are like the folks that hammer Fox News but look at MSNBC as a beacon of truth. The reason owners are taking notice is the fact that their network money is in jeopardy. The ratings drop started last year and continued this year before Trump said a word.


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D Rock
post Oct 12 2017, 09:17 AM
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QUOTE (Zero @ Oct 12 2017, 10:47 AM) *
Are you suggesting that a cashier is perfectly within his/her rights to express political opinion to paying customers despite the boss telling them not to? And that the courts would protect them if they are terminated?

No. Thankfully the little nazi dip shit got fired from Jamba Juice.

I’m suggesting the nfl is in a unique situation based on its anti trust position.


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Birdwatcher
post Oct 12 2017, 01:01 PM
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QUOTE (D Rock @ Oct 12 2017, 10:17 AM) *
No. Thankfully the little nazi dip shit got fired from Jamba Juice.

I’m suggesting the nfl is in a unique situation based on its anti trust position.


Say they could and did cut such a player, but what if that player still had guaranteed money in that contract not yet paid? My guess is that they would still have to pay it out, no?
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CT_Eagle
post Oct 12 2017, 01:07 PM
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QUOTE (Birdwatcher @ Oct 12 2017, 06:01 PM) *
Say they could and did cut such a player, but what if that player still had guaranteed money in that contract not yet paid? My guess is that they would still have to pay it out, no?



I think it would come down to what is in the contract between the NFL and the NFLPA.
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The Franchise
post Oct 12 2017, 01:31 PM
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QUOTE (Birdwatcher @ Oct 12 2017, 01:01 PM) *
Say they could and did cut such a player, but what if that player still had guaranteed money in that contract not yet paid? My guess is that they would still have to pay it out, no?


There may be something in the NFL rules that allow players to forfeit guaranteed money outside of a serious crime or misconduct, but I don't see why the NFLPA would allow it, hence the term 'guaranteed.' Another owner would just scoop up a good player anyway. It would probably be more effective to ban a player from using practice/workout facilities while being benched, losing precious time on the player's bio clock, along with fines. We might find out soon.


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Reality Fan
post Oct 12 2017, 01:52 PM
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The easiest solution would be to let players produce videos of their protest that each team could play during pregame warm ups. Whether they did it individually or as a group. The videos would garner national attention on the internet and they could voice their concerns that way and still have a national audience. The National anthem would not be involved. It is amazing how the comments that accompanied the initial protest have been glossed over and forgotten or willfully ignored by those supporting the protests.


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Birdman420
post Oct 12 2017, 07:01 PM
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So I'd like to add what I think to this conversation, it's not going to be much different then some of the stances already taken. If i offend anyone, good, it's my right to say my thoughts out loud as long as it doesn't include hate, racists or inciteful remarks.

First and foremost, it's interesting to me that what is freedom of speech seems to be up for debate on those offended by Colin's initial actions. Mr. Trump only made that ridiculous debate more incendiary when he called for "taking those son's of bitches off the field". Our current president knows nothing of adversity, race or empathy for that matter, he could dig up an unpublished Dr.King speech full of racial empathy and olive branches that would mean nothing because the messenger is just as important as the message.

Second, This whole issue is slightly open to interpretation based on Colin's recorded words on why he decided to take a knee in the first place. Statistically it is a cop out to focus solely on the unjust police killings on minorities, minority on minority crime and murder is substantially worse. I think what he was trying to say to all of us was, hey when a cop stops a person of color he's more likely to get shot then someone with white skin color. A police officers job is to protect and serve, it's not a mandatory job, they weren't drafted and they are under trained in using restraint before pulling out their weapon and over weaponized for the job of keeping the peace because the civilian population has military weaponry.

In my opinion, Police officers should be trained to use deadly force as a last resort only, they should never fire until fired upon. The job is dangerous and an individual should know that before they agree to take on the very important role of protecting the public, when I see them get scared when a suspect escalates his/her attitude, I think that person has no place being a police officer. Their first job is to check themselves, their second is to know how to calm down the suspect and deescalate the situation. The modern police culture since 9/11 has been on a war path arms race, they literally have tanks and wear battle gear when supervising protests. The UK understood that a man that carries a gun is likely to use it.

Lastly, I'm born in Texas, adopted to Philly and lived my whole life as a silver spooned white kid living an unsheltered life, I've got friends in olney, kensington and chestnut hill. I've been exposed to the melting pot we call America.

I won't go as far as to call every person within the borders of texas a fraud or a hypocrite. However I will say that the most tolerant areas of america are the cities and surrounding suburbs, those living beyond the limits are much more likely to be bigoted, pious and hateful to anyone that isn't like them. It's not a political issue its a systemic issue.

Texas as a state takes in 34ish % of it's income from federal income and is close to the top of the list of "takers" from socialism, other red, southern, pious states are also at the top of that same list of takers. What this means is that cities which are almost all democratic in nature and tolerant at heart are also the financial hubs of america, we pay our bills and contribute to the socialist part of our quasi-socialist country. We pay for the subsidies that paid for the cheap texas housing in and around houston that got flooded and destroyed and now being rebuilt on our dime not theirs. What they do with our money is pay for the ten commandments to be places outside of their government buildings or racists confederate statues, close community centers and planned parenthoods(I refuse to call them abortion clinics as that's about 3% of what they do).

The reason I bring religion into all of this is because societal studies have proven that as religiosity declines, societal health increases. Less crime, less teen pregnancies,less drug abuse, less debt, hate and better education for everyone thus making a less divided society.

In conclusion, this controversy is riddled with hypocrisy, the rural areas are controlling the narrative because even in the reddest states, democratic cities are there, tolerant and have nothing in common with it's surrounding areas yet they foot the bill. This problem of police shootings is just a small segment of the overall real issue at hand here, but the problem of police shootings on black Americans goes back to the 60's and even had a big part in the 90's eclipsing on the OJ simpson case. My point is that there's history here that's being completely ignored, a history of hate violence that is the complete opposite of why America's greatness was great in the first place. We never were great, we always did horrible things to outliers, it was the idea of tolerance, opportunity for all and a land to live freely that gave us this illusion of greatness in the world, many other countries have taken those ideas and actually practice what they preach while we sit here and debate the meaning of greatness.


P.S. The 2nd amendment was drafted for the purpose of keeping slaves in line, when southern slaves would rise up against it's captures there was a need for a "well regulated militia" to have the ability to squash any uprising and keep order. It was never intended to give every citizen the right to take someone else's life when they deem themselves to be in danger. Also "states rights" were not what the south fought for nor did they ever respect states rights in the first place, when a northern state would allow run away slaves to live free, the south screamed and yelled at the federal government to take that right away so the slaves would be returned back to their owners.
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D Rock
post Oct 13 2017, 03:00 PM
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Interesting


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The Franchise
post Oct 13 2017, 03:23 PM
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QUOTE (Birdman420 @ Oct 12 2017, 07:01 PM) *
So I'd like to add what I think to this conversation, it's not going to be much different then some of the stances already taken. If i offend anyone, good, it's my right to say my thoughts out loud as long as it doesn't include hate, racists or inciteful remarks.

First and foremost, it's interesting to me that what is freedom of speech seems to be up for debate on those offended by Colin's initial actions. Mr. Trump only made that ridiculous debate more incendiary when he called for "taking those son's of bitches off the field". Our current president knows nothing of adversity, race or empathy for that matter, he could dig up an unpublished Dr.King speech full of racial empathy and olive branches that would mean nothing because the messenger is just as important as the message.

Second, This whole issue is slightly open to interpretation based on Colin's recorded words on why he decided to take a knee in the first place. Statistically it is a cop out to focus solely on the unjust police killings on minorities, minority on minority crime and murder is substantially worse. I think what he was trying to say to all of us was, hey when a cop stops a person of color he's more likely to get shot then someone with white skin color. A police officers job is to protect and serve, it's not a mandatory job, they weren't drafted and they are under trained in using restraint before pulling out their weapon and over weaponized for the job of keeping the peace because the civilian population has military weaponry.

In my opinion, Police officers should be trained to use deadly force as a last resort only, they should never fire until fired upon. The job is dangerous and an individual should know that before they agree to take on the very important role of protecting the public, when I see them get scared when a suspect escalates his/her attitude, I think that person has no place being a police officer. Their first job is to check themselves, their second is to know how to calm down the suspect and deescalate the situation. The modern police culture since 9/11 has been on a war path arms race, they literally have tanks and wear battle gear when supervising protests. The UK understood that a man that carries a gun is likely to use it.

Lastly, I'm born in Texas, adopted to Philly and lived my whole life as a silver spooned white kid living an unsheltered life, I've got friends in olney, kensington and chestnut hill. I've been exposed to the melting pot we call America.

I won't go as far as to call every person within the borders of texas a fraud or a hypocrite. However I will say that the most tolerant areas of america are the cities and surrounding suburbs, those living beyond the limits are much more likely to be bigoted, pious and hateful to anyone that isn't like them. It's not a political issue its a systemic issue.

Texas as a state takes in 34ish % of it's income from federal income and is close to the top of the list of "takers" from socialism, other red, southern, pious states are also at the top of that same list of takers. What this means is that cities which are almost all democratic in nature and tolerant at heart are also the financial hubs of america, we pay our bills and contribute to the socialist part of our quasi-socialist country. We pay for the subsidies that paid for the cheap texas housing in and around houston that got flooded and destroyed and now being rebuilt on our dime not theirs. What they do with our money is pay for the ten commandments to be places outside of their government buildings or racists confederate statues, close community centers and planned parenthoods(I refuse to call them abortion clinics as that's about 3% of what they do).

The reason I bring religion into all of this is because societal studies have proven that as religiosity declines, societal health increases. Less crime, less teen pregnancies,less drug abuse, less debt, hate and better education for everyone thus making a less divided society.

In conclusion, this controversy is riddled with hypocrisy, the rural areas are controlling the narrative because even in the reddest states, democratic cities are there, tolerant and have nothing in common with it's surrounding areas yet they foot the bill. This problem of police shootings is just a small segment of the overall real issue at hand here, but the problem of police shootings on black Americans goes back to the 60's and even had a big part in the 90's eclipsing on the OJ simpson case. My point is that there's history here that's being completely ignored, a history of hate violence that is the complete opposite of why America's greatness was great in the first place. We never were great, we always did horrible things to outliers, it was the idea of tolerance, opportunity for all and a land to live freely that gave us this illusion of greatness in the world, many other countries have taken those ideas and actually practice what they preach while we sit here and debate the meaning of greatness.


P.S. The 2nd amendment was drafted for the purpose of keeping slaves in line, when southern slaves would rise up against it's captures there was a need for a "well regulated militia" to have the ability to squash any uprising and keep order. It was never intended to give every citizen the right to take someone else's life when they deem themselves to be in danger. Also "states rights" were not what the south fought for nor did they ever respect states rights in the first place, when a northern state would allow run away slaves to live free, the south screamed and yelled at the federal government to take that right away so the slaves would be returned back to their owners.




--------------------
"If it came down to both teams were even, talent-wise, I think the opponent's team would win if it came down to coaching. Andy Reid got out-coached in a lot of games, man, a lot of big games."
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Birdman420
post Oct 13 2017, 04:16 PM
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Typical response from you Franchise,

I'll try to shorten my responses to political/social threads so that you can follow.

Edit: It's okay to just say the topic is over your head.
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Aquila
post Oct 13 2017, 05:13 PM
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There's been a good effort by everyone to keep the disagreements on this thread civil so far, which is refreshing.

Let's keep it that way please.


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