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- nephillymike   Why would we pick Pederson over Shurmer?   Jan 12 2016, 07:48 PM
- - mcnabbulous   Pederson   Jan 12 2016, 07:49 PM
|- - nephillymike   QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 12 2016, 07:49 P...   Jan 12 2016, 10:23 PM
|- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jan 12 2016, 09:23 ...   Jan 12 2016, 10:59 PM
|- - nephillymike   QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 12 2016, 10:59 P...   Jan 12 2016, 11:04 PM
|- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jan 12 2016, 10:04 ...   Jan 12 2016, 11:29 PM
|- - nephillymike   QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 12 2016, 11:29 P...   Jan 12 2016, 11:31 PM
|- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jan 12 2016, 10:31 ...   Jan 12 2016, 11:39 PM
|- - nephillymike   QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 12 2016, 11:39 P...   Jan 12 2016, 11:44 PM
||- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jan 12 2016, 10:44 ...   Jan 13 2016, 12:08 AM
||- - Phits   QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 13 2016, 12:08 A...   Jan 13 2016, 01:01 AM
||- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 13 2016, 12:01 AM) It ...   Jan 13 2016, 08:42 AM
||- - Phits   QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 13 2016, 08:42 A...   Jan 13 2016, 11:26 AM
||- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 13 2016, 10:26 AM) Mos...   Jan 13 2016, 11:38 AM
|- - Zero   QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 12 2016, 11:39 P...   Jan 13 2016, 06:48 AM
|- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (Zero @ Jan 13 2016, 05:48 AM) Are ...   Jan 13 2016, 08:45 AM
|- - Reality Fan   QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 13 2016, 08:45 A...   Jan 13 2016, 09:35 AM
- - nd9kel   Shurmer The offense doesn't need to start ov...   Jan 12 2016, 07:50 PM
- - Reality Fan   Can we arrange an industrial accident?   Jan 12 2016, 08:31 PM
- - Joegrane   One reporter recently suggested that Shurmur does ...   Jan 12 2016, 11:08 PM
- - mcnabbulous   Fat may not best describe him, but he definitely w...   Jan 13 2016, 09:39 AM
|- - Reality Fan   QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 13 2016, 09:39 A...   Jan 13 2016, 09:48 AM
- - Pila   I'd take Shurmur because there's a lot of ...   Jan 13 2016, 10:18 AM
|- - nephillymike   QUOTE (Pila @ Jan 13 2016, 10:18 AM) I...   Jan 13 2016, 08:25 PM
- - mcnabbulous   FWIW, I think it's completely reasonable to th...   Jan 13 2016, 10:34 AM
- - mcnabbulous   The Chiefs offense has been more interesting than ...   Jan 13 2016, 08:33 PM
> Why would we pick Pederson over Shurmer?
nephillymike
post Jan 12 2016, 07:48 PM
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Shurmur

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/ShurPa0.htm

Pederson

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/PedeDo0.htm

I don't see it.

If I have to pick between the two, give me Shurmur.

Anyone?
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mcnabbulous
post Jan 12 2016, 07:49 PM
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Pederson
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nd9kel
post Jan 12 2016, 07:50 PM
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Shurmer


The offense doesn't need to start over.
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Reality Fan
post Jan 12 2016, 08:31 PM
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nephillymike
post Jan 12 2016, 10:23 PM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 12 2016, 07:49 PM) *
Pederson



Why?
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mcnabbulous
post Jan 12 2016, 10:59 PM
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QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jan 12 2016, 09:23 PM) *
Why?

He's not a retread. He was brought in to mentor our young, QB of the future and did an admirable job, he's been working under one of the best coaches in the league for the last six seasons. I think he will come in with a plan.
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nephillymike
post Jan 12 2016, 11:04 PM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 12 2016, 10:59 PM) *
He's not a retread. He was brought in to mentor our young, QB of the future and did an admirable job, he's been working under one of the best coaches in the league for the last six seasons. I think he will come in with a plan.


If it's Andy you want:

Shurmur has 10 years working with Reid
Pederson has 7 years

Shurmur was the qB coach for McNabb all of those years
Pederson was for Kolb/Vick/Smith

Shurmur was with Reid when his offense was good
Perderson has been with him when it was in the mid 20's the last few years.

Shurmur, with experience with Chip's offense and who said he learned more in the last three years than those previously, is actually LESS of a retread than Pederson when you look at exposure to new things, new systems etc.
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Joegrane
post Jan 12 2016, 11:08 PM
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One reporter recently suggested that Shurmur does not have a HC personality.

Maybe Pederson has that personality and can keep Shurmur as OC and play caller.

QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jan 12 2016, 07:48 PM) *
Shurmur

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/ShurPa0.htm

Pederson

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/PedeDo0.htm

I don't see it.

If I have to pick between the two, give me Shurmur.

Anyone?

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mcnabbulous
post Jan 12 2016, 11:29 PM
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QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jan 12 2016, 10:04 PM) *
If it's Andy you want:

Shurmur has 10 years working with Reid
Pederson has 7 years

Shurmur was the qB coach for McNabb all of those years
Pederson was for Kolb/Vick/Smith

Shurmur was with Reid when his offense was good
Perderson has been with him when it was in the mid 20's the last few years.

Shurmur, with experience with Chip's offense and who said he learned more in the last three years than those previously, is actually LESS of a retread than Pederson when you look at exposure to new things, new systems etc.

As stated elsewhere, you're more hung up on yards than I am. The Chiefs offense out scores their yards big time.

Shurmer had his chance to be a head coach and didn't do a whole lot with it. He was fired too soon, but doesn't excite me as an option.

I also think Smith has been very good in KC. I'm not sure why you use him as a negative. He's continued to progress each year.
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nephillymike
post Jan 12 2016, 11:31 PM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 12 2016, 11:29 PM) *
As stated elsewhere, you're more hung up on yards than I am. The Chiefs offense out scores their yards big time.

Shurmer had his chance to be a head coach and didn't do a whole lot with it. He was fired too soon, but doesn't excite me as an option.

I also think Smith has been very good in KC. I'm not sure why you use him as a negative. He's continued to progress each year.



Not saying Smith is a negative, just not as good on his resume than McNabb is for Shurmur
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mcnabbulous
post Jan 12 2016, 11:39 PM
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QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jan 12 2016, 10:31 PM) *
Not saying Smith is a negative, just not as good on his resume than McNabb is for Shurmur

Considering I pretty vocally don't believe Donovan progressed nearly as much as he should have as a QB, I can't say that I definitively agree.

Smith's current career trajectory is on a better path than Donovan's at this age.
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nephillymike
post Jan 12 2016, 11:44 PM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 12 2016, 11:39 PM) *
Considering I pretty vocally don't believe Donovan progressed nearly as much as he should have as a QB, I can't say that I definitively agree.

Smith's current career trajectory is on a better path than Donovan's at this age.



Could you imagine McNabb's career if Andy gave him the play action opportunities afforded to our current QB? If I'm hearing correctly through the grapevine, the highest passing % HC in the league is actually running the ball. I guess Childress finally got to him?

While here, Andy never emphasized that part of the game. HC malpractice IMO. Their play action mechanics were worse than a grade school team's mechanics. McNabb never sold that.
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mcnabbulous
post Jan 13 2016, 12:08 AM
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QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jan 12 2016, 10:44 PM) *
Could you imagine McNabb's career if Andy gave him the play action opportunities afforded to our current QB? If I'm hearing correctly through the grapevine, the highest passing % HC in the league is actually running the ball. I guess Childress finally got to him?

While here, Andy never emphasized that part of the game. HC malpractice IMO. Their play action mechanics were worse than a grade school team's mechanics. McNabb never sold that.

I can't believe this misconception still plagues this fanbase. Especially after everyone was so sure that once a brilliant, run-first coach like Shanahan got his hands on him, Donnie would just thrive.

Instead, Shanahan was forced to throw more than he ever had in his career.

Andy threw because McNabb wasn't efficient enough of a passer. Smith is proving to be more competent in that regard. It makes the play calling a bit less boom or bust.

It's also no coincidence that the Vikings were so pathetic when they tried to be smash mouth with Donnie under center.
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Phits
post Jan 13 2016, 01:01 AM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 13 2016, 12:08 AM) *
I can't believe this misconception still plagues this fanbase. Especially after everyone was so sure that once a brilliant, run-first coach like Shanahan got his hands on him, Donnie would just thrive.

It would have been a different story if McNabb was 25 instead of 33.

QUOTE
Instead, Shanahan was forced to throw more than he ever had in his career.

As you pointed out (in defense of Reid) it is a passing league. Shanahan passed just as much the season after McNabb was ousted. If it wasn't because RG3 was such a threat to run (120 rush attempts) he would have passed just as much. Shanahan was a run first HC. the game changes and coaches try to adapt. Some are successful (Andy Reid) while others, not so much (Shanahan)

QUOTE
Andy threw because McNabb wasn't efficient enough of a passer. Smith is proving to be more competent in that regard. It makes the play calling a bit less boom or bust.

Andy threw because his RB was often the most dangerous passing threat they had. Those Eagles mastered the screen pass.


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Zero
post Jan 13 2016, 06:48 AM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 12 2016, 11:39 PM) *
Considering I pretty vocally don't believe Donovan progressed nearly as much as he should have as a QB, I can't say that I definitively agree.

Smith's current career trajectory is on a better path than Donovan's at this age.

Are you discounting Reid from that?
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mcnabbulous
post Jan 13 2016, 08:42 AM
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QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 13 2016, 12:01 AM) *
It would have been a different story if McNabb was 25 instead of 33.

33 is not old for NFL QBs.

The top 4 guys in passing yards this year were Brees, Palmer, Brady, and Rivers.

McNabb flamed out at the time when many of the best in the game are thriving. He should have had 3-4 more really solid seasons after we dropped him.
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mcnabbulous
post Jan 13 2016, 08:45 AM
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QUOTE (Zero @ Jan 13 2016, 05:48 AM) *
Are you discounting Reid from that?

I think most of Donovan's failings were the result of fitness, so I almost exclusively put the blame on him.

Had he maintained his physical prowess from his mid-20's, his career could have lasted several more years.
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Reality Fan
post Jan 13 2016, 09:35 AM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 13 2016, 08:45 AM) *
I think most of Donovan's failings were the result of fitness, so I almost exclusively put the blame on him.

Had he maintained his physical prowess from his mid-20's, his career could have lasted several more years.



I agree he may have relaxed the workouts towards the end but do I need to repost the pictures I did before?

The guy was a workout warrior for most of his career...he made the poor choice to bulk up to take the beatings he was getting and that was his downfall.....we had this discussion before and I posted several pics of him throughout his eagles career and they make all these "he got fat" comments look like the rubbish they are....

I think his last few years, though, he really stopped giving a shit and just collected a check...


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mcnabbulous
post Jan 13 2016, 09:39 AM
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Fat may not best describe him, but he definitely was not lean. He was bulky. His arms were way too big.

When he entered the league, he was lean. Had he maintained that, his career would have lasted quite a bit longer (and been more successful).
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Reality Fan
post Jan 13 2016, 09:48 AM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 13 2016, 09:39 AM) *
Fat may not best describe him, but he definitely was not lean. He was bulky. His arms were way too big.

When he entered the league, he was lean. Had he maintained that, his career would have lasted quite a bit longer (and been more successful).



I agree completely......I think it was after 2002 or 2003 that he decided he needed more muscle to absorb the pounding.....his offseason workouts, as I have documented here before, were featured on ESPN. But you are very correct, that addition of muscle lessened his natural abilities and shortened his career.(and went to his head...he got a little nutty the last few years)


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Pila
post Jan 13 2016, 10:18 AM
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I'd take Shurmur because there's a lot of Kelly's philosophy worth keeping.


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mcnabbulous
post Jan 13 2016, 10:34 AM
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FWIW, I think it's completely reasonable to think we hire Pederson and he keeps Shurmer as his OC.
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Phits
post Jan 13 2016, 11:26 AM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jan 13 2016, 08:42 AM) *
33 is not old for NFL QBs.

Most QB's peak in their late 20's. The decline begins at 30. Logically the decline would be more rapid with a new system/team.

Here's a couple good articles on this subject
Link
Link2

QUOTE
The top 4 guys in passing yards this year were Brees, Palmer, Brady, and Rivers.

For Brees, Brady and Rivers continuity has a lot to do with that..same team/system for 10+ seasons. For Palmer having the most dynamic group of receivers in the league helps out. In his last season with Philly, McNabb had a very respectable season. They finally had a dynamic group of receivers for him to work with and there was continuity. Unfortunately, the QB guru hand selected his next project and the keys were handed over to Kolb and we know how that turned out.

QUOTE
McNabb flamed out at the time when many of the best in the game are thriving. He should have had 3-4 more really solid seasons after we dropped him.

There isn't much evidence supporting your argument here. How many QB's have thrived on a new team after the age of 33?


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mcnabbulous
post Jan 13 2016, 11:38 AM
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QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 13 2016, 10:26 AM) *
Most QB's peak in their late 20's. The decline begins at 30. Logically the decline would be more rapid with a new system/team.

Here's a couple good articles on this subject
Link
Link2


This quote jumped out at me...
"One thing that’s different about these long-playing quarterbacks is that they peak later. At 33, they were twice as good as they had been at 22. And they continued to play at that high level roughly until they turned 37."


QUOTE
For Brees, Brady and Rivers continuity has a lot to do with that..same team/system for 10+ seasons. For Palmer having the most dynamic group of receivers in the league helps out. In his last season with Philly, McNabb had a very respectable season. They finally had a dynamic group of receivers for him to work with and there was continuity. Unfortunately, the QB guru hand selected his next project and the keys were handed over to Kolb and we know how that turned out.

Do you think cutting loose of Donovan at that point was the wrong decision? Kolb obviously wasn't the answer, but Donovan was out of the league within 2 years. He was toast. That's the point here.

QUOTE
There isn't much evidence supporting your argument here. How many QB's have thrived on a new team after the age of 33?

Manning, Carson Palmer are doing so right now. My point is that Donovan was supposed to be an elite, franchise QB. His career didn't go down the path of other guys in that class. If he had kept his body in proper condition, he wouldn't have had to start over with a new team. Andy cut him loose because he proved himself to be more of a middle of the road guy than one of the top guys.

Shanahan even said that Donovan wasn't in the condition to run the two minute drill in Washington. His career ended prematurely because of his own doing, more so than some disservice from coaches.
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nephillymike
post Jan 13 2016, 08:25 PM
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QUOTE (Pila @ Jan 13 2016, 10:18 AM) *
I'd take Shurmur because there's a lot of Kelly's philosophy worth keeping.



Agree. I hope that Jeff and Howie know this.
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mcnabbulous
post Jan 13 2016, 08:33 PM
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The Chiefs offense has been more interesting than the Eagles of late, especially as it relates to things like read option, pistol, etc.
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