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> Finally...someone makes sense on Murray, the silliness of his carries last year and their effect
Reality Fan
post Jul 20 2015, 01:54 PM
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http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2015/7/...ive-line-dallas

Murray will be just fine...

This guy must have read my post on the subject a few weeks back....


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mcnabbulous
post Jul 20 2015, 03:55 PM
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I think it's a real concern. The biggest thing Demarco has going for him is that we hopefully don't have to pound him 300+ times this year. Splitting the workload with Mathews and Sproles is a major positive.

Secondly, his overall minimal amount of touches in his career helps. If we keep him around 250 touches this year, he has a chance to be just as productive on a per touch basis.
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Reality Fan
post Jul 20 2015, 05:48 PM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jul 20 2015, 04:55 PM) *
I think it's a real concern. The biggest thing Demarco has going for him is that we hopefully don't have to pound him 300+ times this year. Splitting the workload with Mathews and Sproles is a major positive.

Secondly, his overall minimal amount of touches in his career helps. If we keep him around 250 touches this year, he has a chance to be just as productive on a per touch basis.


when you look at each instance where that workload existed in the past, those who went downhill had reasons other than one heavy season. It was either previous heavy loads, injury of the unexpected type or age.



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nephillymike
post Jul 20 2015, 06:55 PM
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QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jul 20 2015, 05:48 PM) *
when you look at each instance where that workload existed in the past, those who went downhill had reasons other than one heavy season. It was either previous heavy loads, injury of the unexpected type or age.



I don't think he's doomed for life or anything, but I expect a one year decent dip in his efficiency (YPC) and production (total yards). I think that in 2016, he'll get back to previous efficiency levels. Isn't it true that in the overwhelming majority of cases there have been big efficiency drops?

I agree that a target of 250 touches regular season is the wise move for this year.
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mcnabbulous
post Jul 20 2015, 07:06 PM
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QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jul 20 2015, 05:48 PM) *
when you look at each instance where that workload existed in the past, those who went downhill had reasons other than one heavy season. It was either previous heavy loads, injury of the unexpected type or age.

I don't think those injuries and that previous workload are mutually exclusive. The previous heavy workloads are certainly viable rationale.

Usually where it seems to impact guys is that initial step. They just lose a little bit of the burst when coming back from a heavy workload.
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Reality Fan
post Jul 20 2015, 11:26 PM
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QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jul 20 2015, 07:55 PM) *
I don't think he's doomed for life or anything, but I expect a one year decent dip in his efficiency (YPC) and production (total yards). I think that in 2016, he'll get back to previous efficiency levels. Isn't it true that in the overwhelming majority of cases there have been big efficiency drops?

I agree that a target of 250 touches regular season is the wise move for this year.



Hmm...lets see....Ladanian Tomilinson...372 carries for 1600+- in 2002....in 2003....313 carries for 1600+ yards

Terrell Davis....369 Carries in 1997 for 1750 yards (he had 345 carries the year before) 392 carries in 1998 for 2008 yards. His drop off the following year came because he blew out his ACL and MCL.....that had nothing to do with too many carries....he bent it the wrong way making a tackle after an interception.

Jamal Anderson also tore his ACL the season following his 400 carries.....note that he came back and ran for over a 1000 yards the next year.

James Wilder ran for 1300 yards the year after he had 400 carries.

Look at Eric Dickerson's numbers....he had over a 1000 carries his first 3 years and than had 400 carries in one season....he got hurt the following year but not before he ran for 1200 yards....he also had 4 more 1000 yard seasons running the ball.

The bottom line is that most of the examples of history occurred when medicine was archaic compared to present day and there are still plenty of examples of success.




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JeeQ
post Jul 21 2015, 11:18 AM
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Just to throw more fuel on the fire Emmitt Smith hinted today that DeMarco was a product of an amazing offensive line last year and actually left a lot of yardage on the field. He thinks as good as the O-Line was last season for Dallas DeMarco should've done much better:

QUOTE
“At some time it does become a little insulting,” Smith said, via the Dallas Morning News. When I think about DeMarco Murray, he has his own talent but when I was watching him run last year, and this is just me evaluating, I saw some opportunities there that was left on the football field where he could’ve had 2,500 yards, but he maximized what he had and he did the best with what he had. He had tremendous opportunities and the Cowboys — here’s the most important thing — the Cowboys gave him the opportunity to do it, which showed, truly what his ability was like and how good that offensive line was in terms of combination.

“At the end of the day, you’ve got to have something yourself individually that makes everything look better and click better and feel better. . . . There are certain talents out there that turn sugar into wine. DeMarco did that on his own, and yes he did have a great line in front of him to make that happen too.”


No one mentions DeMarco Murray without that incredible O-Line Dallas had last season; which is why I have misgivings about this season with a brand new O-Line and a one-legged QB

Eagles have a roster full of people who need to prove themselves: Is Sam Bradford an injury-prone waste of a #1 Pick? Is Maxwell completely worthless without Sherman and the Legion Of Boom behind him? Is DeMarco still a Pro-Bowl caliber RB without the league's best O-Line making huge lanes for him? Is Chip Kelly batshit crazy for kicking all the Pro-Bowlers off this team for these guys? Find out these answers and more this Eagles season!
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mcnabbulous
post Jul 21 2015, 11:25 AM
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QUOTE (JeeQ @ Jul 21 2015, 11:18 AM) *
Just to throw more fuel on the fire Emmitt Smith hinted today that DeMarco was a product of an amazing offensive line last year and actually left a lot of yardage on the field. He thinks as good as the O-Line was last season for Dallas DeMarco should've done much better:



No one mentions DeMarco Murray without that incredible O-Line Dallas had last season; which is why I have misgivings about this season with a brand new O-Line and a one-legged QB

Eagles have a roster full of people who need to prove themselves: Is Sam Bradford an injury-prone waste of a #1 Pick? Is Maxwell completely worthless without Sherman and the Legion Of Boom behind him? Is DeMarco still a Pro-Bowl caliber RB without the league's best O-Line making huge lanes for him? Is Chip Kelly batshit crazy for kicking all the Pro-Bowlers off this team for these guys? Find out these answers and more this Eagles season!

Their OL was overrated as fuck.
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Reality Fan
post Jul 21 2015, 12:26 PM
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QUOTE (JeeQ @ Jul 21 2015, 12:18 PM) *
Just to throw more fuel on the fire Emmitt Smith hinted today that DeMarco was a product of an amazing offensive line last year and actually left a lot of yardage on the field. He thinks as good as the O-Line was last season for Dallas DeMarco should've done much better:



No one mentions DeMarco Murray without that incredible O-Line Dallas had last season; which is why I have misgivings about this season with a brand new O-Line and a one-legged QB

Eagles have a roster full of people who need to prove themselves: Is Sam Bradford an injury-prone waste of a #1 Pick? Is Maxwell completely worthless without Sherman and the Legion Of Boom behind him? Is DeMarco still a Pro-Bowl caliber RB without the league's best O-Line making huge lanes for him? Is Chip Kelly batshit crazy for kicking all the Pro-Bowlers off this team for these guys? Find out these answers and more this Eagles season!


Look at it a different way....why is McCoy not a product of a great O Line in 2013 much like Murray in 2014? If you use the argument for one than you must use it for the other. The Eagles had the top ranked O line in 2013.

If not for the one injury that cost him 6 games than this debate never happens.


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JeeQ
post Jul 21 2015, 12:47 PM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ Jul 21 2015, 09:25 AM) *
Their OL was overrated as fuck.


Three Things I Want McNabbulous To Be Right About:

1.) A 12+ Win Season
2.) Our O-Line Is Underrated
3.) Cowboy's O-Line Is Overrated

QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jul 21 2015, 10:26 AM) *
Look at it a different way....why is McCoy not a product of a great O Line in 2013 much like Murray in 2014? If you use the argument for one than you must use it for the other. The Eagles had the top ranked O line in 2013.

If not for the one injury that cost him 6 games than this debate never happens.


Mainly because of 2010 and 2011... Shady was already an established All-Pro RB, had led the league in TDs, and was a Top 5 RB before the Eagles had a top ranked O-Line in 2013... but if we're being real Reality we've both had the pleasure of watching Shady his entire career and we know exactly why Shady gets the credit he does

DeMarco is a damn good RB, but I believe he was greatly assisted by a #1 ranked O-Line, one of the best WRs in the game stretching the field, and like it or not, an elite QB throwing the ball... Personally I like that people are calling him out, maybe he'll play with a chip on his shoulder and shut me and the rest of the doubters up for good
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Phits
post Jul 21 2015, 01:16 PM
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QUOTE (JeeQ @ Jul 21 2015, 01:47 PM) *
DeMarco is a damn good RB, but I believe he was greatly assisted by a #1 ranked O-Line, one of the best WRs in the game stretching the field, and like it or not, an elite QB throwing the ball...

I agree. I think where we differ in opinion is that I feel an All-Pro RB is nice for the fans to cheer for, but you only need a good-very good RB to help move the chains.


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Joegrane
post Jul 22 2015, 07:57 PM
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That sums it up as well as I've heard.

McCoy was great from the fan's perspective. Murray isn't in the same league as McCoy in terms of exciting long runs.

However, the Eagles need to keep Bradford in one piece. Having 3rd-and-reasonable is a big issue for them. I like the combo of Murray and Mathews for that purpose.

I don't know how good M & M are at picking up blitzes but that will also be very important for keeping Bradford upright.


QUOTE (Phits @ Jul 21 2015, 02:16 PM) *
I agree. I think where we differ in opinion is that I feel an All-Pro RB is nice for the fans to cheer for, but you only need a good-very good RB to help move the chains.


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Reality Fan
post Jul 22 2015, 08:37 PM
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QUOTE (JeeQ @ Jul 21 2015, 01:47 PM) *
Mainly because of 2010 and 2011... Shady was already an established All-Pro RB, had led the league in TDs, and was a Top 5 RB before the Eagles had a top ranked O-Line in 2013... but if we're being real Reality we've both had the pleasure of watching Shady his entire career and we know exactly why Shady gets the credit he does

DeMarco is a damn good RB, but I believe he was greatly assisted by a #1 ranked O-Line, one of the best WRs in the game stretching the field, and like it or not, an elite QB throwing the ball... Personally I like that people are calling him out, maybe he'll play with a chip on his shoulder and shut me and the rest of the doubters up for good


Sorry but we will have to inject some facts here.

through 4 seasons
McCoy
Year G GS Att Yds TD Lng Y/A Y/G A/G Tgt Rec Yds Y/R TD Lng Fmb
2009 16 4 155 637 4 66 4.1 39.8 9.7 55 40 308 7.7 0 45 2
2010 15 13 207 1080 7 62 5.2 72 13.8 91 78 592 7.6 2 40 2
2011*+ 15 15 273 1309 17 60 4.8 87.3 18.2 69 48 315 6.6 3 26 1
2012 12 12 200 840 2 34 4.2 70 16.7 67 54 373 6.9 3 36 4
58 44 835 3866 30 4.6 282 220 1588 7.2 9

Murray
Year G GS Att Yds TD Lng Y/A Y/G A/G Tgt Rec Yds Y/R TD Lng Fmb
2011 13 7 164 897 2 91 5.5 69 12.6 35 26 183 7.0 0 18 1
2012 10 10 161 663 4 48 4.1 66.3 16.1 42 34 247 7.3 0 22 3
2013* 14 14 217 1121 9 43 5.2 80.1 15.5 66 53 350 6.6 1 22 3
2014*+ 16 16 392 1845 13 51 4.7 115.3 24.5 64 57 416 7.3 0 34 6
53 47 934 4526 28 4.8 207 170 1196 7.0 13

Now you can say that Murray had a great O Line last year but lets look at the rankings by PFF

Run Blocking
Eagles Dallas
2009 10th 2011 15th
2010 11th 2012 8th
2011 1st 2013 2nd Eagles were 1st
2012 5th 2014 2nd Eagles were 1st

As you can plainly see...McCoy had the benefit of the higher ranked O Line every year.

If folks want to use the argument for one then they need to apply the same logic to both.

While Murray may not be "better" than McCoy he certainly is as good.

By the way.....through their 1st 4 years they had the same number of First team All Pro....1

Murray has 2 Pro Bowls to McCoy's 1 in their respective first 4 years.....


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Birdwatcher
post Jul 22 2015, 09:00 PM
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QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jul 22 2015, 09:37 PM) *
Sorry but we will have to inject some facts here.

through 4 seasons
McCoy
Year G GS Att Yds TD Lng Y/A Y/G A/G Tgt Rec Yds Y/R TD Lng Fmb
2009 16 4 155 637 4 66 4.1 39.8 9.7 55 40 308 7.7 0 45 2
2010 15 13 207 1080 7 62 5.2 72 13.8 91 78 592 7.6 2 40 2
2011*+ 15 15 273 1309 17 60 4.8 87.3 18.2 69 48 315 6.6 3 26 1
2012 12 12 200 840 2 34 4.2 70 16.7 67 54 373 6.9 3 36 4
58 44 835 3866 30 4.6 282 220 1588 7.2 9

Murray
Year G GS Att Yds TD Lng Y/A Y/G A/G Tgt Rec Yds Y/R TD Lng Fmb
2011 13 7 164 897 2 91 5.5 69 12.6 35 26 183 7.0 0 18 1
2012 10 10 161 663 4 48 4.1 66.3 16.1 42 34 247 7.3 0 22 3
2013* 14 14 217 1121 9 43 5.2 80.1 15.5 66 53 350 6.6 1 22 3
2014*+ 16 16 392 1845 13 51 4.7 115.3 24.5 64 57 416 7.3 0 34 6
53 47 934 4526 28 4.8 207 170 1196 7.0 13

Now you can say that Murray had a great O Line last year but lets look at the rankings by PFF

Run Blocking
Eagles Dallas
2009 10th 2011 15th
2010 11th 2012 8th
2011 1st 2013 2nd Eagles were 1st
2012 5th 2014 2nd Eagles were 1st

As you can plainly see...McCoy had the benefit of the higher ranked O Line every year.

If folks want to use the argument for one then they need to apply the same logic to both.

While Murray may not be "better" than McCoy he certainly is as good.

By the way.....through their 1st 4 years they had the same number of First team All Pro....1

Murray has 2 Pro Bowls to McCoy's 1 in their respective first 4 years.....


Some added math, we traded one big time play maker and got 3 play makers in exchange (Alonzo, Murray, and Mathews) all for about the same $. More math, Murray had a heavy load last year but Shady just had two big years and has two years more mileage on his legs.

Overall it looks like we got a lot of value trading Shady.
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JeeQ
post Jul 22 2015, 09:11 PM
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QUOTE (Reality Fan @ Jul 22 2015, 06:37 PM) *
Math


The math is the math, no point in going over that, but...

"While Murray may not be "better" than McCoy he certainly is as good."

If he's not better than he can't be as good... that's why I still give McCoy the edge every time

In fact "Not Better, As Good" could be the motto for this team

From the QB, to the RBs, to the WRs, to the O-Line... this team isn't any "better" from last season but it might as "as good"
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nephillymike
post Jul 22 2015, 10:37 PM
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QUOTE (Birdwatcher @ Jul 22 2015, 09:00 PM) *
Some added math, we traded one big time play maker and got 3 play makers in exchange (Alonzo, Murray, and Mathews) all for about the same $. More math, Murray had a heavy load last year but Shady just had two big years and has two years more mileage on his legs.

Overall it looks like we got a lot of value trading Shady.



As far as the money goes, it's all about the guaranteed money. We paid a heck of a lot more to RB's Murray, Mathews than we were on the hook for McCoy.

Just sayin'.

I hope Murray does real well but he wasn't cheap at all !!
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Reality Fan
post Jul 23 2015, 12:38 AM
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QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jul 22 2015, 11:37 PM) *
As far as the money goes, it's all about the guaranteed money. We paid a heck of a lot more to RB's Murray, Mathews than we were on the hook for McCoy.

Just sayin'.

I hope Murray does real well but he wasn't cheap at all !!


There is one very big difference....if McCoy gets hurt there is no proven plan B....if Murray gets hurt you have Matthews....and there is no real option for McCoy to get a break....

And late season in Buffalo is a lot harder than late season in Philly.


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