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- nephillymike   T. Mac has good point   May 11 2014, 07:11 PM
- - mcnabbulous   You're killing me, man.   May 11 2014, 07:15 PM
- - Zero   I'm not sure this isn't being over analyze...   May 11 2014, 07:22 PM
|- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (Zero @ May 11 2014, 07:22 PM) I...   May 11 2014, 07:26 PM
- - Reality Fan   OK...it was a reach....happy....you win...god I ha...   May 11 2014, 07:31 PM
- - TGryn   I'm not surprised the #22/26 pick had consider...   May 11 2014, 07:50 PM
|- - Reality Fan   QUOTE (TGryn @ May 11 2014, 07:50 PM) I...   May 11 2014, 07:54 PM
- - Zero   QUOTE QUOTE (TGryn @ May 11 2014, 07:50 PM) * I...   May 11 2014, 07:54 PM
- - nephillymike   I applaud Chips honesty, I really do. At in his d...   May 11 2014, 08:26 PM
|- - Reality Fan   QUOTE (nephillymike @ May 11 2014, 08:26 ...   May 11 2014, 08:31 PM
||- - nephillymike   QUOTE (Reality Fan @ May 11 2014, 08:31 P...   May 11 2014, 09:04 PM
||- - Reality Fan   QUOTE (nephillymike @ May 11 2014, 09:04 ...   May 11 2014, 11:56 PM
||- - nephillymike   QUOTE (Reality Fan @ May 11 2014, 11:56 P...   May 12 2014, 05:13 AM
|- - TGryn   QUOTE (nephillymike @ May 11 2014, 05:26 ...   May 11 2014, 09:23 PM
||- - nephillymike   QUOTE (TGryn @ May 11 2014, 09:23 PM) Dou...   May 11 2014, 10:12 PM
||- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (nephillymike @ May 11 2014, 10:12 ...   May 11 2014, 10:54 PM
|- - Birdwatcher   QUOTE (nephillymike @ May 11 2014, 09:26 ...   May 11 2014, 11:23 PM
- - Zero   And a good one from Les Bowen: QUOTE Biggest quibb...   May 12 2014, 07:43 AM
- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (nephillymike @ May 11 2014, 07:11 ...   May 12 2014, 01:16 PM
|- - nephillymike   QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ May 12 2014, 01:16 P...   May 12 2014, 08:46 PM
|- - mcnabbulous   QUOTE (nephillymike @ May 12 2014, 08:46 ...   May 12 2014, 09:04 PM
- - samaroo   The purpose of the draft is to improve your team, ...   May 13 2014, 08:30 AM
> T. Mac has good point
nephillymike
post May 11 2014, 07:11 PM
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Reach? I think so.
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mcnabbulous
post May 11 2014, 07:15 PM
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You're killing me, man.
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Zero
post May 11 2014, 07:22 PM
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I'm not sure this isn't being over analyzed.

They trade down to 26 and get an extra third. Good move? Most think so.

WRs are plentiful and a good one can be had at 54 or in a trade back up.

DBs are there and probably two LBs that could fit their schemes: Smith and Attaochu ... right?

If all the DBs and the LBs hold similar values to the Eagles (tier) but the Eagles seef LB as a greater need and having less depth what do you do?
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mcnabbulous
post May 11 2014, 07:26 PM
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QUOTE (Zero @ May 11 2014, 07:22 PM) *
I'm not sure this isn't being over analyzed.

They trade down to 26 and get an extra third. Good move? Most think so.

WRs are plentiful and a good one can be had at 54 or in a trade back up.

DBs are there and probably two LBs that could fit their schemes: Smith and Attaochu ... right?

If all the DBs and the LBs hold similar values to the Eagles (tier) but the Eagles seef LB as a greater need and having less depth what do you do?

To add to all these points, they walked away from the first two rounds with players they really like. Guys they wanted, that fit what they're trying to do.

Isn't that better than playing the board straight up and only walking away with one?
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Reality Fan
post May 11 2014, 07:31 PM
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OK...it was a reach....happy....you win...god I hate the fucking draft anymore.....there are suddenly 10 million draft experts...

I don't think I have ever disliked the draft as much as I have the last 2 years....there are more draft "experts" and more people stating their opinion as fact that don't know shit about the game than I can ever remember....it is truly maddening.

maybe this draft class is terrible and maybe not...I won't know until they get on the field. They drafted some players the last 2 years.....that buys them far more credibility, Roseman in particular, than any stuff added here by the experts or any of the experts on TV....even Mayock is annoying. He had about 100 "favorite" guys in the draft during the telecast and it made me want to throw up. I still laugh about his Burfect miss and that is about as bad a miss as you can get.

OK...rant over...carry on.


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TGryn
post May 11 2014, 07:50 PM
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I'm not surprised the #22/26 pick had considerably more uncertainty attached to it than #4, where we picked last year. The Eagles could BS and say they were just as confident in the pick as they were in last year, but I think its a little disingenuous for the media and fans to criticize the franchise for being pretty secretive and uninformative under Reid/Banner, then criticize them again this year and use it against them when they admit that they were more uncertain making the pick this year than last.

At what point do you go strictly with value, and throw things like work ethic and character out the window? Because the longer I see draft after draft go by, then see how picks turn out and how many busts there are, the guys who stick in the league are the ones with either monster athletic talent (usually gone after the first 10 picks) or the players who don't let the money get to them and continue to work hard and put in the time it takes to succeed.

Pure athleticism you can measure at things like the Combine, but being the kind of person who'll keep working at getting better after getting the million-dollar bonus? That's a whole 'nother thing, and something we as fans and draft magazines can only distantly touch. Even the teams, who can talk to college and HS coaches as well as the players themselves, can only make an educated guess at it. I figure that's some of what Chip was getting at when he responded "Honestly, I have no idea" as to how well he thinks this draft went. Until the kid shows up in camp after getting his money, whether he'll make a good pro or not is...uncertain, at best.


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Reality Fan
post May 11 2014, 07:54 PM
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QUOTE (TGryn @ May 11 2014, 07:50 PM) *
I'm not surprised the #22/26 pick had considerably more uncertainty attached to it than #4, where we picked last year. The Eagles could BS and say they were just as confident in the pick as they were in last year, but I think its a little disingenuous for the media and fans to criticize the franchise for being pretty secretive and uninformative under Reid/Banner, then criticize them again this year and use it against them when they admit that they were more uncertain making the pick this year than last.

At what point do you go strictly with value, and throw things like work ethic and character out the window? Because the longer I see draft after draft go by, then see how picks turn out and how many busts there are, the guys who stick in the league are the ones with either monster athletic talent (usually gone after the first 10 picks) or the players who don't let the money get to them and continue to work hard and put in the time it takes to succeed.


excellent post....

and it is not a little disingenuous...it is a lot......but expected


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Zero
post May 11 2014, 07:54 PM
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QUOTE
QUOTE (TGryn @ May 11 2014, 07:50 PM) *
I'm not surprised the #22/26 pick had considerably more uncertainty attached to it than #4, where we picked last year. The Eagles could BS and say they were just as confident in the pick as they were in last year, but I think its a little disingenuous for the media and fans to criticize the franchise for being pretty secretive and uninformative under Reid/Banner, then criticize them again this year and use it against them when they admit that they were more uncertain making the pick this year than last.


Good one, oh Wise One. biggrin.gif
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nephillymike
post May 11 2014, 08:26 PM
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I applaud Chips honesty, I really do.

At in his defense, Howie's back pedal did not have near the bs content as other administrations did.

I mean really, to hear Ray Rhodes say We can't beleive that Jon Harris was still on the board is complete an unadulterated bull shit.

I welcome the honesty.

If their board was in such disarray at #26, then OK, shit happens. The mistake was not trading back down again to someone who wanted Brigewater and pick up another 3rd rounder. Smith would be there at #42, and if for some damning of the football gods he wasnt', there were a ton of other better players that would be.
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Reality Fan
post May 11 2014, 08:31 PM
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QUOTE (nephillymike @ May 11 2014, 08:26 PM) *
I applaud Chips honesty, I really do.

At in his defense, Howie's back pedal did not have near the bs content as other administrations did.

I mean really, to hear Ray Rhodes say We can't beleive that Jon Harris was still on the board is complete an unadulterated bull shit.

I welcome the honesty.

If their board was in such disarray at #26, then OK, shit happens. The mistake was not trading back down again to someone who wanted Brigewater and pick up another 3rd rounder. Smith would be there at #42, and if for some damning of the football gods he wasnt', there were a ton of other better players that would be.


better to whom?...they liked the guy and they took him....maybe...just maybe they wanted him...I know they are not nearly as well versed in draft boards and such as you are but maybe they liked the guy.....go figure. What is bizarre is that because you don't like the pick it means their draft board was in disarray. Wow....


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nephillymike
post May 11 2014, 09:04 PM
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QUOTE (Reality Fan @ May 11 2014, 08:31 PM) *
better to whom?...they liked the guy and they took him....maybe...just maybe they wanted him...I know they are not nearly as well versed in draft boards and such as you are but maybe they liked the guy.....go figure. What is bizarre is that because you don't like the pick it means their draft board was in disarray. Wow....


From your initial reaction post:

the more things change the more they stay the same.....

just a bizarre pick...


And now it's not so bizarre?

I don't get it.
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TGryn
post May 11 2014, 09:23 PM
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QUOTE (nephillymike @ May 11 2014, 05:26 PM) *
If their board was in such disarray at #26, then OK, shit happens. The mistake was not trading back down again to someone who wanted Brigewater and pick up another 3rd rounder. Smith would be there at #42, and if for some damning of the football gods he wasnt', there were a ton of other better players that would be.

Doubtful, considering Dallas picked the next OLB prospect in Lawrence at 34. That's as far as you could have gone down, and that's with the benefit of hindsight of knowing how the draft actually played out. And on the Eagles' board, they came out and said the six guys they wanted were gone, so Smith was at the top of the next tier. If there were a "ton of other better players" on their board, they would have went with one of them instead.

If the argument is about how the Eagles' board didn't line up with the various online draft value boards, well, that's what happens when you add things like system fit and what a particular team is looking for into the mix. As I said about Smith, he's more valuable to a 3-4 team looking for an OLB than a 4-3 or 3-4 team who wanted to play him at DE. The value boards don't take that into account, because they're not tailored to a particular team. They're useful in general terms - it would have been an issue if they'd taken Hart in the 1st for example - but in a range of 10-20 picks, which is what we're talking about with Smith, its not clear at what point you go from "reach" to "appropriate."


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nephillymike
post May 11 2014, 10:12 PM
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QUOTE (TGryn @ May 11 2014, 09:23 PM) *
Doubtful, considering Dallas picked the next OLB prospect in Lawrence at 34. That's as far as you could have gone down, and that's with the benefit of hindsight of knowing how the draft actually played out. And on the Eagles' board, they came out and said the six guys they wanted were gone, so Smith was at the top of the next tier. If there were a "ton of other better players" on their board, they would have went with one of them instead.

If the argument is about how the Eagles' board didn't line up with the various online draft value boards, well, that's what happens when you add things like system fit and what a particular team is looking for into the mix. As I said about Smith, he's more valuable to a 3-4 team looking for an OLB than a 4-3 or 3-4 team who wanted to play him at DE. The value boards don't take that into account, because they're not tailored to a particular team. They're useful in general terms - it would have been an issue if they'd taken Hart in the 1st for example - but in a range of 10-20 picks, which is what we're talking about with Smith, its not clear at what point you go from "reach" to "appropriate."

It works to their benefit also.

If smith was not a 43 DE, or a 34 wanting a DE but his skill set was specifically valuable to the Eagles joker flex 34 under defense or whatever they call it nowadays, then, not many people would want Smith which increases the likelihood that he would be there. Attaochu who was rated better on almost every board lasted until 50 and Bradford who was ranked better more times than Smith lasted until 121. A few people said other than Mack and Barr, Attaochu was the best pass rushing OLB in the draft.

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mcnabbulous
post May 11 2014, 10:54 PM
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QUOTE (nephillymike @ May 11 2014, 10:12 PM) *
It works to their benefit also.

If smith was not a 43 DE, or a 34 wanting a DE but his skill set was specifically valuable to the Eagles joker flex 34 under defense or whatever they call it nowadays, then, not many people would want Smith which increases the likelihood that he would be there. Attaochu who was rated better on almost every board lasted until 50 and Bradford who was ranked better more times than Smith lasted until 121. A few people said other than Mack and Barr, Attaochu was the best pass rushing OLB in the draft.


I think you just need to accept the fact that the Eagles had him graded different than the pundits. And it's quite likely other teams did as well. Primarily, they didn't draft him because he was strictly a pass rusher. They drafted him because of his general versatility. More importantly, they didn't want strictly a pass rusher.

Attaochu is a pass rush specialist with no other qualities. They already have guys on the team that fit the role. They drafted Smith because they can move him around. There were no other guys available who fit that role. If just one other team shared that opinion (and it sounds like the Skins did) than they would have been shit out of luck.

If they wanted to draft an OLB, they would have been forced to select another one-dimensional, Brandon Graham type and our team wouldn't have moved forward. We would have been limited schematically, which is the key to Chip's whole philosophy on both sides of the ball.
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Birdwatcher
post May 11 2014, 11:23 PM
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QUOTE (nephillymike @ May 11 2014, 09:26 PM) *
I applaud Chips honesty, I really do.

At in his defense, Howie's back pedal did not have near the bs content as other administrations did.

I mean really, to hear Ray Rhodes say We can't beleive that Jon Harris was still on the board is complete an unadulterated bull shit.

I welcome the honesty.

If their board was in such disarray at #26, then OK, shit happens. The mistake was not trading back down again to someone who wanted Brigewater and pick up another 3rd rounder. Smith would be there at #42, and if for some damning of the football gods he wasnt', there were a ton of other better players that would be.


You need a partner wanting to trade up first and I believe Chip said the phone rang at 22 but not at 26.
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Reality Fan
post May 11 2014, 11:56 PM
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QUOTE (nephillymike @ May 11 2014, 09:04 PM) *
From your initial reaction post:

the more things change the more they stay the same.....

just a bizarre pick...


And now it's not so bizarre?

I don't get it.


as I said before...I don't know shit about how any of these picks will turn out....my initial reaction was another DE that was light but then I realized I don't know shit about how any of these guys will pan out. The difference is that 1. I don't bemoan the fact that they took the guy and I realize they probably know better than I. 2. I realize there are way too many draft "experts". There are guys here talking about picks as if they know not think a guy will turn out. I leave the analysis to the guys paid by the team to do so.





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nephillymike
post May 12 2014, 05:13 AM
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QUOTE (Reality Fan @ May 11 2014, 11:56 PM) *
as I said before...I don't know shit about how any of these picks will turn out....my initial reaction was another DE that was light but then I realized I don't know shit about how any of these guys will pan out. The difference is that 1. I don't bemoan the fact that they took the guy and I realize they probably know better than I. 2. I realize there are way too many draft "experts". There are guys here talking about picks as if they know not think a guy will turn out. I leave the analysis to the guys paid by the team to do so.

If we left the analysis to the guys paid by the team to do so, then there's no need for this community.

Close up shop and just listen/read the official team website.

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Zero
post May 12 2014, 07:43 AM
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And a good one from Les Bowen:
QUOTE
Biggest quibble from this corner: After hearing Kelly and general manager Howie Roseman talk at length about the way the draft went down, it's hard to shake the thought that they were trying to hit a first-round home run, and ended up settling for a sacrifice fly.

Odds are, 3-4 linebacker Marcus Smith, taken in the first round after the Birds moved back from 22 to 26, will not define this Eagles draft. Wide receiver Jordan Matthews has the ability to be a second-round star at least in the realm of Sheldon Brown in 2002, if not DeSean Jackson in 2008 or LeSean McCoy in 2009. The rationale about Smith still learning to be a pass rusher after coming to Louisville as a quarterback offers solid hope for his upside. And at least they didn't burn resources to trade up to take him, as the previous regime did for Jerome McDougle in 2003 and Brandon Graham in 2010.

Linc ...
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mcnabbulous
post May 12 2014, 01:16 PM
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QUOTE (nephillymike @ May 11 2014, 07:11 PM) *

What about this, Mikey?

NFL Teams had a higher value on Marcus Smith than the media

QUOTE
While the Eagles may have taken Smith slightly earlier than would be ideal, the NFL valued Smith much higher than media folk. For example, the Redskins reportedly would have likely taken him with the 34th overall pick if Smith were still available. Instead, when Smith wasn't available, the Redskins traded out of their pick.

Best move: Trading out of the 34th pick overall and picking up another third-round choice. The Redskins did not have a first-round pick, so being able to pick up another choice among the top three rounds was a strong move. The Redskins might have stayed at 34 had linebacker Marcus Smith still been available. The Redskins saw a couple other players they liked get picked as well, so trading back was a no-brainer. Plus, they liked a handful of pass-rushers, so they knew someone they liked would still be around at 47.

It is noteworthy that two additional teams picking in the first round after the Eagles, the Panthers and Patriots, also worked out Smith prior to the draft.

Marcus Smith was the player the Eagles wanted. If they would have traded back further than 34 (and possibly even earlier than that), they probably would not have gotten their guy.
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nephillymike
post May 12 2014, 08:46 PM
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QUOTE (mcnabbulous @ May 12 2014, 01:16 PM) *

It means nothing to me and has no impact on his ability to play.

Old heads will remember the Ray Rhodes administration using the same tactic and quoting the GB Packers as someone dying to have the chance to pick Jon Harris.

When Howie asked Angelo why he didn't read the media and didn't know how high the Skins apparently had him rated, I couldn't believe it. I was like c'mon Howie.

Really? If we valued the Redskins talent evaluations so much, we would have kept Jackson.

It sounded desperate to me. Howie, just say we liked him, I don't give damn what anyone else thought and we know what works in our system.

To phantom quote the Redskins? Really?

Also, teams have visits from many players. Doesn't mean they are all picking them in the first round.
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mcnabbulous
post May 12 2014, 09:04 PM
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QUOTE (nephillymike @ May 12 2014, 08:46 PM) *
Really? If we valued the Redskins talent evaluations so much, we would have kept Jackson.

This draft should make it clear to you that our evaluation goes well beyond talent. After watching them stick by their convictions pick after pick in the draft, it actually made me more accepting of the Desean release.

They drafted guys who finished school, who are dependable and coachable. Who are football smart.

I loved Desean, but he's not those things.
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samaroo
post May 13 2014, 08:30 AM
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The purpose of the draft is to improve your team, not get the best "value" or get an A+ from Mel Kiper.


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