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- nephillymike   Is Andy Reid a Hall of Fame coach?   Jan 13 2017, 08:01 PM
- - Phits   IMO he would have to take KC to the SB this season...   Jan 13 2017, 09:42 PM
|- - Dreagon   QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 13 2017, 08:42 PM) IMO...   Jan 14 2017, 08:52 AM
|- - Phits   QUOTE (Dreagon @ Jan 14 2017, 08:52 AM) T...   Jan 14 2017, 12:07 PM
- - Eyrie   There aren't many coaches in the Hall of Fame,...   Jan 14 2017, 05:29 AM
|- - Joegrane   I agree with you. We also have to consider his co...   Jan 14 2017, 12:14 PM
|- - Phits   To Reid's credit he embraced the prolific pass...   Jan 14 2017, 12:47 PM
|- - The Franchise   QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 14 2017, 01:47 PM) To ...   Jan 14 2017, 07:24 PM
|- - Phits   QUOTE (The Franchise @ Jan 14 2017, 07:24...   Jan 14 2017, 07:49 PM
- - The Franchise   He doesn't have a prayer without winning a cha...   Jan 14 2017, 02:35 PM
|- - Reality Fan   QUOTE (The Franchise @ Jan 14 2017, 02:35...   Jan 14 2017, 05:38 PM
|- - The Franchise   QUOTE I will never understand the hatred of Reid.....   Jan 14 2017, 07:22 PM
- - nephillymike   Before I looked into it, I thought my answer would...   Jan 14 2017, 05:58 PM
|- - Phits   Joegrane made an interesting question, how many of...   Jan 14 2017, 06:21 PM
|- - nephillymike   QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 14 2017, 06:21 PM) Joe...   Jan 15 2017, 09:54 AM
- - nephillymike   My feeling about Reid is mixed. On a personal not...   Jan 14 2017, 07:51 PM
|- - The Franchise   QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jan 14 2017, 08:51 ...   Jan 14 2017, 11:05 PM
|- - Joegrane   I like Andy a lot. I route for him except against...   Jan 14 2017, 11:29 PM
- - Zero   I like Andy, was always an AndyHead but the Dream ...   Jan 14 2017, 09:19 PM
- - Zero   Wentz is good at play action fakes and Reid improv...   Jan 15 2017, 10:17 AM
|- - Phits   QUOTE (Zero @ Jan 15 2017, 10:17 AM) Went...   Jan 15 2017, 01:16 PM
- - SAM I Am   He definitely needs a SB to put him over the top a...   Jan 15 2017, 01:30 PM
> Is Andy Reid a Hall of Fame coach?
nephillymike
post Jan 13 2017, 08:01 PM
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Assume that Andy loses this game and retires afterwards.

Is he a Hall of Fame coach today?

If not, what is the minimum he has to do from here on out to achieve the HOF?

I need to think s bit for my answer and will reply later.
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Phits
post Jan 13 2017, 09:42 PM
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IMO he would have to take KC to the SB this season. He doesn't have to win, getting there would satisfy my criteria.


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Eyrie
post Jan 14 2017, 05:29 AM
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There aren't many coaches in the Hall of Fame, so Reid would have to win at least one SuperBowl to make it.

If not, he'll deserve to be a candidate based on sustained success both here and then in KC but won't have the achievements to justify actual selection.


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Dreagon
post Jan 14 2017, 08:52 AM
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QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 13 2017, 08:42 PM) *
IMO he would have to take KC to the SB this season. He doesn't have to win, getting there would satisfy my criteria.


That would give him both an NFC and an AFC Championship. Pretty impressive even without a Lombardi.
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Phits
post Jan 14 2017, 12:07 PM
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QUOTE (Dreagon @ Jan 14 2017, 08:52 AM) *
That would give him both an NFC and an AFC Championship. Pretty impressive even without a Lombardi.

When you reference it like that it makes me curious whether he would be the only HC to perform that feat?


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Joegrane
post Jan 14 2017, 12:14 PM
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I agree with you.

We also have to consider his competition during this era.

Who other than Belicheat is in contention? How does Andy compare?

How many HoF coaches had a HoF QB?

QUOTE (Eyrie @ Jan 14 2017, 05:29 AM) *
There aren't many coaches in the Hall of Fame, so Reid would have to win at least one SuperBowl to make it.

If not, he'll deserve to be a candidate based on sustained success both here and then in KC but won't have the achievements to justify actual selection.

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Phits
post Jan 14 2017, 12:47 PM
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To Reid's credit he embraced the prolific passer era quicker than most of his contemporaries, even though his weapons weren't necessarily equipped for it.

QUOTE (Joegrane @ Jan 14 2017, 12:14 PM) *
We also have to consider his competition during this era.

He's approaching 20 (1999-2016) years as a HC. During that span, we have seen a bunch of good coaches turn into bad ones (like Jeff Fisher or Mike Shanahan or Dennis Green)

QUOTE
Who other than Belicheat is in contention? How does Andy compare?

Dungy, Coughlin, Payton, Carroll, McCarthy, Marvin Lewis?

QUOTE
How many HoF coaches had a HoF QB?

From the above list the only coach who didn't have a HoF worthy QB is Lewis, and he may be the most underachieving HC of this era.


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The Franchise
post Jan 14 2017, 02:35 PM
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He doesn't have a prayer without winning a championship, nor should he. He's Marty Schottenheimer without the clock management skills. Marty also has groomed at least 3 current/future HoF coaches (Dungy, Cowher, McCarthy), while he himself will never get in because he didn't win the big one.

In fact, if you look at Reid's coaching tree, the only coaches worth a shit are on defense and special teams (as in, thank you JJ). He will likely get out coached by Tomlin tomorrow, and history will repeat itself.




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Reality Fan
post Jan 14 2017, 05:38 PM
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QUOTE (The Franchise @ Jan 14 2017, 02:35 PM) *
He doesn't have a prayer without winning a championship, nor should he. He's Marty Schottenheimer without the clock management skills. Marty also has groomed at least 3 current/future HoF coaches (Dungy, Cowher, McCarthy), while he himself will never get in because he didn't win the big one.

In fact, if you look at Reid's coaching tree, the only coaches worth a shit are on defense and special teams (as in, thank you JJ). He will likely get out coached by Tomlin tomorrow, and history will repeat itself.


Reid is a great coach...I agree that he wont get in without a SB win but saying Ron Rivera or Harbaugh is because of JJ is silly. Rivera was an early Reid hire as was Harbaugh and Harbaugh spent most of his career with Reid as a ST guy.

I will never understand the hatred of Reid....but it is Philly so I guess I should


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nephillymike
post Jan 14 2017, 05:58 PM
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Before I looked into it, I thought my answer would be yes.

But after a little research, my answer is no, and it isn't as close as I thought.

Looking at head coaches who coached in 1977 or after and have been inducted, here is a list and the important stats. It is not a difficult argument to say that all of these are more deserving:

Name.........SBW......CC.....Win%.....Wins.....P/O Rec
Shula............2..........6....... .677.....328.......19-17
Landry..........2..........5........ .607.....230.......20-16
Gibbs...........3...........4....... .621......154.......17-7
Noll..............4..........4........ .566.....193........16-8
Walsh...........3..........3........ .609......92.........10-4
=================================
Parcells.........2...........3....... .569......172........11-8
Dungy ..........1...........1...... .666.......138........9-10
Stram...........1...........2....... .574.......131........5-3
Madden.........1..........1....... .759........103........9-7
Allen.............1..........1....... .712........116........2-7
=================================
Grant............0..........4....... .621........158......10-12
Levy.............0..........4....... .561.........143......11-8
=================================
Coaches not in HOF but nominated this year and how far they got in voting
Coryell.........0..........0....... .572.........111.......3-6 finalist, IMO, doesn't belong in. Good innovator.
Johnson.......2..........2....... .556..........80........9-4 semi-finalist
Holmgren.....1..........3...... .592..........161.......13-11 didn't make semis
Cowher........1...........2...... .623..........149.......12-9 didn't make semis
Vermiel........1...........2...... .524..........120.......6-5. Didn't make semis
Reeves.........0..........4...... .535..........190......11-9. Didn't make semis
Knox............0.........0....... .558..........186......7-11...didn't make semis
==================================
Reid.............0........,.1...... .602...........173.....11-11..has work to do

IMO, he needs to win a SB and he's in.

If not, win 3 more AFC titles with SB losses and he's in.

If not, win 2 more conf titles with SB losses and get to 200 career wins.

If not, win 1 more conf title w SB loss and get 220 career wins.

If not, have at least four more playoff wins and get past Landry to 231 career wins.

In any event, it's the high rent district and even with any of the above scenarios, he will likely need to wait a few years, much like those who didn't make the cut in this year's HOF balloting.

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Phits
post Jan 14 2017, 06:21 PM
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Joegrane made an interesting question, how many of these 'worthy HC' had HoF QB's? For example, would Dungy have gotten in if not for Manning?

QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jan 14 2017, 05:58 PM) *
Before I looked into it, I thought my answer would be yes.

But after a little research, my answer is no, and it isn't as close as I thought.

Looking at head coaches who coached in 1977 or after and have been inducted, here is a list and the important stats. It is not a difficult argument to say that all of these are more deserving:

Name.........SBW......CC.....Win%.....Wins.....P/O Rec
Shula............2..........6....... .677.....328.......19-17
Landry..........2..........5........ .607.....230.......20-16
Gibbs...........3...........4....... .621......154.......17-7
Noll..............4..........4........ .566.....193........16-8
Walsh...........3..........3........ .609......92.........10-4
=================================
Parcells.........2...........3....... .569......172........11-8
Dungy ..........1...........1...... .666.......138........9-10
Stram...........1...........2....... .574.......131........5-3
Madden.........1..........1....... .759........103........9-7
Allen.............1..........1....... .712........116........2-7
=================================
Grant............0..........4....... .621........158......10-12
Levy.............0..........4....... .561.........143......11-8
=================================
Coaches not in HOF but nominated this year and how far they got in voting
Coryell.........0..........0....... .572.........111.......3-6 finalist, IMO, doesn't belong in. Good innovator.
Johnson.......2..........2....... .556..........80........9-4 semi-finalist
Holmgren.....1..........3...... .592..........161.......13-11 didn't make semis
Cowher........1...........2...... .623..........149.......12-9 didn't make semis
Vermiel........1...........2...... .524..........120.......6-5. Didn't make semis
Reeves.........0..........4...... .535..........190......11-9. Didn't make semis
Knox............0.........0....... .558..........186......7-11...didn't make semis
==================================
Reid.............0........,.1...... .602...........173.....11-11..has work to do

IMO, he needs to win a SB and he's in.

If not, win 3 more AFC titles with SB losses and he's in.

If not, win 2 more conf titles with SB losses and get to 200 career wins.

If not, win 1 more conf title w SB loss and get 220 career wins.

If not, have at least four more playoff wins and get past Landry to 231 career wins.

In any event, it's the high rent district and even with any of the above scenarios, he will likely need to wait a few years, much like those who didn't make the cut in this year's HOF balloting.



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The Franchise
post Jan 14 2017, 07:22 PM
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QUOTE
I will never understand the hatred of Reid....but it is Philly so I guess I should


Reid is an offensive minded coach. The coaches I named are defensive minded coaches, who would have worked more closely with JJ as opposed to Reid while here. When you look at the offensive minded coaches in his tree (Childress, Shurmur, Morningwood) that vindicates me. It also appears Pederson inherited his boneheaded gameday coaching.

It IS Philly, which is why I will never understand the fans who are rooting for him to win one in KC, after what we had to go through during his fruitless tenure.



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The Franchise
post Jan 14 2017, 07:24 PM
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QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 14 2017, 01:47 PM) *
To Reid's credit he embraced the prolific passer era quicker than most of his contemporaries, even though his weapons weren't necessarily equipped for it.


He had complete control over personnel, drafted his franchise QB, and was responsible for not putting weapons for his QB at WR. If he didn't like his 'hof worthy QB,' he should've switched.


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"If it came down to both teams were even, talent-wise, I think the opponent's team would win if it came down to coaching. Andy Reid got out-coached in a lot of games, man, a lot of big games."
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Phits
post Jan 14 2017, 07:49 PM
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QUOTE (The Franchise @ Jan 14 2017, 07:24 PM) *
He had complete control over personnel, drafted his franchise QB, and was responsible for not putting weapons for his QB at WR. If he didn't like his 'hof worthy QB,' he should've switched.

To be fair, he didn't always have complete control.


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nephillymike
post Jan 14 2017, 07:51 PM
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My feeling about Reid is mixed.

On a personal note, a friend of mine works in audio communications and he's had to work with Reid on numerous occasions and says he is a great guy and my friend would always get upset when we'd yell about him while watching games at the bar.

I like for good people to succeed. However, as a fan, his pressers pissed me off to no end.

I always felt that the pass happy, lack of play action pass was gross negligence and I lost patience with him over it. IMO, it cost us two more trips to the SB.

Now he runs play action all the time and has a more balanced play call. His time mgt struggles reflect an unwillingness to change or a lack of skill to change.

All that being said, I don't wish him harm, but I don't want Andy to win a SB until we do. Once we do, then have at it.

Kind of like the ex girlfriend who you break up with. A nice girl, but you don't want her to marry until you find your wife to be. And, if she would have lost those pounds that everyone said was her drawback, you never would have broke up with her in the first place. Now she lost the weight like everyone said she should, and I want her to marry a millionaire while I haven't found my true love? Not happening! Petty, I know, but what can I say.

The exception being if he plays DAL or NE.

Other than those two exceptions, "time's mine".
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Zero
post Jan 14 2017, 09:19 PM
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I like Andy, was always an AndyHead but the Dream Team year and the idiocy with Castillo and Walsh combined with his personal tragedy necessitated his departure from Philadelphia. If he wins a SB he'll be HOF material but not if he doesn't.

Sidebar Pederson point: I'm curious why Lurie/Roseman don't insist he be HC and have his DC, OC and ST run their respective units. He's a rookie with minimal NFL coaching experience, make him earn the opportunity to run his own offense and call plays. I think this is the Eagles' biggest mistake with him as HC.
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The Franchise
post Jan 14 2017, 11:05 PM
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QUOTE (nephillymike @ Jan 14 2017, 08:51 PM) *
All that being said, I don't wish him harm, but I don't want Andy to win a SB until we do. Once we do, then have at it.


Sums up my feelings perfectly. He's a good coach and has had a successful career, and if he wins a ring he's likely in the HoF. But goddamit I don't ever want to see him win one before we do.

An absolute nightmare scenario is if KC ends up playing Dallas in the Super Bowl, and I have to root for Reid. Frankly, I'd rather see the Pats in it again.


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Joegrane
post Jan 14 2017, 11:29 PM
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I like Andy a lot. I route for him except against the Eagles.

QUOTE (The Franchise @ Jan 14 2017, 11:05 PM) *
Sums up my feelings perfectly. He's a good coach and has had a successful career, and if he wins a ring he's likely in the HoF. But goddamit I don't ever want to see him win one before we do.

An absolute nightmare scenario is if KC ends up playing Dallas in the Super Bowl, and I have to root for Reid. Frankly, I'd rather see the Pats in it again.

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nephillymike
post Jan 15 2017, 09:54 AM
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QUOTE (Phits @ Jan 14 2017, 06:21 PM) *
Joegrane made an interesting question, how many of these 'worthy HC' had HoF QB's? For example, would Dungy have gotten in if not for Manning?



Just three:

Gibbs, Parcells, Allen. I guess there is an outside chance Romo makes it one day, which takes Parcells off the list, but I doubt it.

I don't think McNabb is a HOF QB, and judging by the fact he didn't make the top 15 semis this year, it looks like others agree with me.

However, I think that any of the coaches already in the HOF could have gotten more out of McNabb than Reid did.

He gave him no play action game, a QB's best friend. When they half hearted tried a play action pass, the mechanics were worse than a my great nephews 100 pounder team's QB. The ball never came anywhere near the gut of the RB.

He took a fairly inaccurate short range passer with a great down field arm and great downfield accuracy and played WCO dink and dunk with no real deep threat until TO, then he went long ball. How many worm burners from 5 yards out did we have to see? He didn't equip him with good WR's.

He left him empty back set way too often, in an environment that he created whereby Reid had the highest % of pass plays called IN THE HISTORY OF THE NFL when he left here. Remember the sideline tape of the game against SD mid Reid era when the SD DL was explaining to his coach that he slowed his rush to check for the run and the coach proceeded to rip him a new asshole saying "what did I tell you? Against this team, don't worry about the $%^& run. You rush the QB!" How many other DC's in that era had that advantage, and to McNabb's disadvantage, of telling their DL the same thing. Pin the ears back and rush the QB with no consequence. IMO, Reid is at least equal reason that McNabb isn't in the HOF than vice versa.

Those demons are coming back................................

Let's go Pittsburgh!!
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Zero
post Jan 15 2017, 10:17 AM
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Wentz is good at play action fakes and Reid improved when he left Philly. His departure was the classic "change of scenery" reason for change. He needed to reflect on his shortcomings and either the firing instigated it or KC did. I'd be much happier with Reid V2 than what we had even if what we had was very good.
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Phits
post Jan 15 2017, 01:16 PM
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QUOTE (Zero @ Jan 15 2017, 10:17 AM) *
Wentz is good at play action fakes and Reid improved when he left Philly. His departure was the classic "change of scenery" reason for change. He needed to reflect on his shortcomings and either the firing instigated it or KC did. I'd be much happier with Reid V2 than what we had even if what we had was very good.

This version of AR isn't very different than the one we had. The main difference is that Smith is a more accurate QB than McNabb, so Reid's game day shortcomings aren't as obvious. I think we have the benefit of looking at Reid from the outside in, and the picture is more flattering.


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SAM I Am
post Jan 15 2017, 01:30 PM
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He definitely needs a SB to put him over the top and in. And even that might not guarantee it.

But without a SB, I'd be shocked if longevity --- along with a pretty damn good body of work --- gets him in.


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